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Old 02-13-2013, 14:46   #626
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
That there should be no problem accepting that we don't know how the universe began.
There isn't. You appear to be alleging there is, I'm asking why you are making that allegation. It's been stated several times that the BBT doesn't make such a claim. It 'not being a problem accepting that we don't know how the universe began' is not in dispute - except, perhaps, with the creationists.

It's the same with evolution. The theory of evolution does not claim to model how life arose - just how it changed once it existed. There is currently no accepted model for abiogenesis (because none of the proposed models have sufficient evidential support & testing), so there is, again, no problem admitting we don't know. The only people who seem to have a problem admitting we don't know are the creationists.

So, again, what's your point?
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Old 02-13-2013, 14:51   #627
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
If you don't know, then you lack a belief in dieties, while maintaining they are a possibility. Right?
Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities.

What's so hard to accept about that?


Quote:
Yep, I've stated several times that I'm an agnostic atheist. I lack a belief in gods, but I don't claim to know that there are no gods. I'm relatively certain I've even told you this.
But do you BELIEVE no deity has ever existed? If not, we might agree much more than I previously thought.

Pull up that 2 dimensional graph that has atheism/theism and gnostic/agnostic at perpendicular relationships, it might help.

Quote:
I did answer, I have no idea what motivates people to do what they do, ESPECIALLY when it comes to religious/theistic opinions. Why?
So, you don't advocate one way or the other? Are you sure?
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Old 02-13-2013, 14:56   #628
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Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities.

What's so hard to accept about that?
'Does Cavalry Doc believe he knows whether or not there are deities?' is a different statement than 'Does Cavalry Doc believe in deities?'

You could, for instance, believe you don't know, while believing that there are.

Or, you could believe you don't know, while *not* believing that there are.

I believe you're a smart enough guy to make that distinction - so my question is, why do you continually avoid making it?
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Old 02-13-2013, 15:13   #629
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
'Does Cavalry Doc believe he knows whether or not there are deities?' is a different statement than 'Does Cavalry Doc believe in deities?'

You could, for instance, believe you don't know, while believing that there are.

Or, you could believe you don't know, while *not* believing that there are.

I believe you're a smart enough guy to make that distinction - so my question is, why do you continually avoid making it?
Or I could just believe it is possible that there was or is at least one deity. Of course I could believe it's possible that there has never been one too, at the same time.


What do you believe?
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Old 02-13-2013, 16:22   #630
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Honestly, there is middle ground. I believe that either possibility is possible. Yes, No & Maybe are all valid answers to the question.
Of course it's possible, but as of today there is not a specific deity that you accept as existing (or having existed). This is true unless you are able to name a deity that you accept as existing or having existed.

This is not at all to argue that they do not or have not existed -- of course they are possible.

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Old 02-13-2013, 16:25   #631
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Or I could just believe it is possible that there was or is at least one deity. Of course I could believe it's possible that there has never been one too, at the same time.
You're just avoiding answering the question. You can believe it is possible that either case might be true at the same time - but that necessitates that you do *not* believe that it is true that a deity *has* existed.


Quote:
What do you believe?
It has not been shown that a deity is probable, therefore I do not accept the posit that a deity exists. I may in the future, depending on the particular deity in question and any evidence that supports a high probability of that deity existing. (I try to frame things in terms of probability, as while I think it is highly probable that I am perceiving an objective reality, it's *possible* that I am not - and that is true of pretty much anything that requires evidence from perception to verify, rather than pure thought)

Note, of course, that it not being shown to be probable does not mean it is impossible. And note, of course, that assessment of probability is something that is done with current information, and is subject to change (i.e., we are not talking about a religious belief here).
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:22   #632
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Of course it's possible, but as of today there is not a specific deity that you accept as existing (or having existed). This is true unless you are able to name a deity that you accept as existing or having existed.

This is not at all to argue that they do not or have not existed -- of course they are possible.

-ArtificialGrape
It's not a definite yes or no. It's a definite maybe. I make no assumptions about the possible characteristics of any deity either. I just have not committed one way or the other, I see no need to. It's not something that influences day to day life for me.
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:29   #633
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Originally Posted by void * View Post
You're just avoiding answering the question. You can believe it is possible that either case might be true at the same time - but that necessitates that you do *not* believe that it is true that a deity *has* existed.
I believe it's possible that a deity has existed, or not.

Can you tell me why this is so important for you, or cut to the chase, it's starting to be boring.

I've answered your question repeatedly, and you have a problem accepting it. I can live with that.


Quote:


It has not been shown that a deity is probable, therefore I do not accept the posit that a deity exists. I may in the future, depending on the particular deity in question and any evidence that supports a high probability of that deity existing. (I try to frame things in terms of probability, as while I think it is highly probable that I am perceiving an objective reality, it's *possible* that I am not - and that is true of pretty much anything that requires evidence from perception to verify, rather than pure thought)

Note, of course, that it not being shown to be probable does not mean it is impossible. And note, of course, that assessment of probability is something that is done with current information, and is subject to change (i.e., we are not talking about a religious belief here).

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-13-2013 at 18:33..
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:47   #634
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
It's not a definite yes or no. It's a definite maybe. I make no assumptions about the possible characteristics of any deity either. I just have not committed one way or the other, I see no need to. It's not something that influences day to day life for me.
Yes, maybe god(s) exist or existed.

However, unless you can name today a god that you believe exists or existed, there are none that you *currently* accept. You are not asserting that they don't exist or have never existed.

Everybody other than you recognizes that there is not a god -- living or dead -- that you accept. You don't need to be scared to admit it.

It's okay, until you can name a deity that you accept, we will accept that there are none.

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:05   #635
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Yes, maybe god(s) exist or existed.

However, unless you can name today a god that you believe exists or existed, there are none that you *currently* accept. You are not asserting that they don't exist or have never existed.
U
Everybody other than you recognizes that there is not a god -- living or dead -- that you accept. You don't need to be scared to admit it.

It's okay, until you can name a deity that you accept, we will accept that there are none.

-ArtificialGrape
Twist it into a pretzel if you have to, but it seems the fear is on your side. Not sure why someone just not committing one way or the other is so discomforting to you. The evangelical atheist approach is humorous though.
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:21   #636
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I've answered your question repeatedly, and you have a problem accepting it. I can live with that.
Nah. I don't have a problem accepting your answer. The problem is that your answer, isn't an answer to the question I asked. It's an answer to a different question.

You've avoided the question repeatedly.

You're still avoiding it.

That's ok - other people will grok that you're avoiding it, and get the point. I think you yourself get the point - which is why you're avoiding it.
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:26   #637
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We could have an entire thread on questions that Doc has avoided. Maybe even a subforum.

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Old 02-13-2013, 19:27   #638
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I grok that...
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Old 02-13-2013, 19:33   #639
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Evangelical atheists are funny.

If they can't convert you, they just declare you are one of them anyway.

Hilarious, thanks for the laugh guys.
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:00   #640
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Religious Issues
Religious Issues
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:07   #641
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We've been talking for a while, I have long said that many self described atheists do not seem religious, but there are many that are.
...
This post makes me wonder if I've misunderstood you for the last 2 or 3 years.

When you say "atheism is a religion" are you trying to say that some atheists act like atheism is a religion, while for others it's not?
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:10   #642
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Twist it into a pretzel if you have to, but it seems the fear is on your side. Not sure why someone just not committing one way or the other is so discomforting to you.
I'm not twisting anything. There is not a deity that you accept as living or as having lived. You can easily prove me wrong by naming a deity that you accept. There's no fear involved on my part whatsoever; however, I'm not sure why you're so afraid to admit that there is not a deity that you accept -- it's plain for all to see.

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The evangelical atheist approach is humorous though.
Not as amusing as a holier than thou agnostic.

Regards,
-ArtificialGrape
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:15   #643
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...
Either you do *believe*, not "know" or "can prove" or "allow for the possibility of" gods, or you do not. There is absolutely no third option when it comes to whether or not you believe something exists. You either do or you don't. It's completely binary.
...
While I agree, I do sympathize with him on this. I was raised Christian, and started questioning it (to myself only, my mom still has no idea I've questioned it, let alone become atheist) around 12-13 years old or so. I'd say there was a good 10 years that I would not answer if I believe. I wanted there to be a middle ground. I would only answer, I don't know, or I'm not sure.
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Quote:
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:25   #644
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...
!=
...
I've seen this cause a lot of confusion.

≠ is much better, though I'm not sure everyone will see it on their computer/phone.
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:28   #645
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I truly believe I don't know. That's not a problem for me. Why is it so hard to accept?
...
It's not hard to accept, I'm sure for anyone, but it's not an answer to the question asked.








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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
If you don't know, then you lack a belief in dieties, while maintaining they are a possibility. Right?
...
Not true. I already explained that I do have a belief concerning deities.
...
Then what is your belief concerning deities?
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Quote:
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 02-13-2013 at 20:48..
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:31   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
This post makes me wonder if I've misunderstood you for the last 2 or 3 years.

When you say "atheism is a religion" are you trying to say that some atheists act like atheism is a religion, while for others it's not?

It's not much different than any belief system, there are people that were baptized as Catholics, but aren't practicing, at all, and when asked their faith will reply catholic.

There are some people that identify themselves as atheists that aren't evangelicals, there are some that are.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:40   #647
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It's not hard to accept, I'm sure for anyone, but it's not an answer to the question asked.
Yes, but the agenda in the question is a little obvious. When asked a question with a digital answer, if that's going to give a dishonest impression, I'll answer it in another way.

It's sorta like being asked, "yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife". Well if you have ever beaten her, a yes or no answer would be appropriate. If you have not beaten her ever, ignore the manipulative demand for a digital answer and clarify.

Quote:
Then what is your belief concerning deities?
That maybe there was one or more or maybe there have never been any.

Haven't we covered this ground before.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:43   #648
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
I'm not twisting anything. There is not a deity that you accept as living or as having lived. You can easily prove me wrong by naming a deity that you accept. There's no fear involved on my part whatsoever; however, I'm not sure why you're so afraid to admit that there is not a deity that you accept -- it's plain for all to see.


Not as amusing as a holier than thou agnostic.

Regards,
-ArtificialGrape
Well at least we are amused. I've explained it quite well, if you don't understand what I've been telling you, or you cannot accept it, it's probably an impasse that we will just have to bypass.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 02-14-2013 at 07:30..
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:57   #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Religious Issues
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:20   #650
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Yes, but the agenda in the question is a little obvious. When asked a question with a digital answer, if that's going to give a dishonest impression, I'll answer it in another way.
It's dishonest for you to admit that you don't actually accept the posit that a deity exists, and therefore, you don't actually believe that a deity exists?

IMHO it's dishonest to dodge the question. There is no agenda in the question other than to point out that as a self-identifying agnostic, you *also* have to lack belief in a deity.

Quote:
It's sorta like being asked, "yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife". Well if you have ever beaten her, a yes or no answer would be appropriate. If you have not beaten her ever, ignore the manipulative demand for a digital answer and clarify.
Except here, we are not talking about something for which a yes or no would be inappropriate. We are talking about something that, for some reason, you apparently think it's dishonest to admit, when the honest thing to do would be to just admit it - especially when it's plain on the face of it that it has to be true that you lack belief in a deity (unless you're not being truthful about being an agnostic. I am not alleging you are not being truthful about that, I am in fact assuming you are being truthful about that - I am just noting it as the case where it would not be true that you lack belief in a deity).

Do you believe a deity has existed? If you can't truly say 'Yes, I believe a deity has existed', then you do not. It's that simple. If you are truly agnostic, the way you describe agnosticism, it has to be the case that you do not believe, whether or not you think it is possible. If you did believe, you would not be agnostic by your own view of agnosticism, you would be a theist.

Precisely how is it dishonest to admit that?
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