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Old 01-05-2013, 21:58   #101
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Science is still important, but not always right. Feel free to google "scientific mistakes" if you want to. Especially where life is concerned. There is a long list of pharmaceuticals that were scientifically evaluated, and did at least as much harm as good.
Science frequently gets things wrong, but it is self correcting, that is the beauty of the scientific process! Science relies exclusively on evidence and observation not inspiration, wisdom and dogma. When better evidence/observations surface, theories get updated or sometimes scrapped completely. Astronomy for example, is loaded with such revelations! Galileo discovered moons orbiting Jupiter. He was excommunicated from the church and severely punished for suggesting that the earth was not the center of the universe.... Copernicus only published his findings on his death bed for fear of the church, Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for suggesting that the sun was just a star!

The problem with biblical dogma is that it is unwavering in spite of scientific evidence to the contrary. Theist struggle to make their bible stories fit with ever-increasingly precise scientific knowledge of the universe... i.e. Adam & Eve, the flood, flat earth, earth centered universe, etc... Currently, the line in the sand is evolution. In another few decades that will be accepted by theists and the line will move to some other "unacceptable issue".
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Old 01-05-2013, 21:59   #102
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JBnTX you love being made a fool of over and over again don't you? You know Animal Mother, Gunhaver, and Geko are going to destroy you on this. You simply do not possess to intellect to debate them on this topic. No one in this forum does.
Since I am working on my graduate degree in biology, I would like to join in.
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Old 01-05-2013, 22:06   #103
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Science is still important, but not always right. Feel free to google "scientific mistakes" if you want to. Especially where life is concerned. There is a long list of pharmaceuticals that were scientifically evaluated, and did at least as much harm as good.

If life is meant to be, and a function of physics, why have we not found it elsewhere. We have found it on our own planet where we didn't expect it to be.

Maybe you are ignorant, and slinging unsupported charges around in a juvenile fashion (an interesting consistency) .

If there is nothing random about the origins of life and evolution, make the case. I'm interested to see you do that.

I'm sure you can explain how soot on trees led to an adaptation of darker moths surviving in greater numbers was a predestined planned event, and not a random occurrence (relatively speaking) at all.

Pfft. Care to make a list of what science has wrong? Care to explain how any of physics is random? Pharmaceuticals? You do realize the production of them is a money making enterprise. I worked in pharmaceutical research. The producers have no problem distributing a product that takes a decade, two or more to be revealed as a harmful in the long run product.

You're intentionally being dense or simply are not capable of understanding.
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Old 01-05-2013, 22:51   #104
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What?!? Clearly the search for knowledge leads to error. It's h failure to question, challenge or think critically that is the problem.


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Old 01-06-2013, 00:22   #105
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The evidence of a designer is the historical and universal belief in one across cultures. Yes, there have always been Agnostics and Atheists - but a designer has existed from the beginning of thought in one form or another. Superstition? Ignorance? Fear? Maybe, or maybe sufficient evidence?


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You are incorrect. Belief in something doesn't make it true. And it is in no way evidence of anything. Otherwise that would make Santa real.

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Old 01-06-2013, 00:27   #106
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Many things are possible. No?
I'll give ya a quick Troll test. Is there any evidence that there is or has ever been a God?
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:39   #107
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The evidence of a designer is the historical and universal belief in one across cultures.
That isn't evidence, it's a belief which can be reduced to the incredibly general "supernatural beings exist". The basis for those beliefs, like weather patterns and disease, can largely now be explained without resort to the supernatural.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:04   #108
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I'll give ya a quick Troll test. Is there any evidence that there is or has ever been a God?
Just about the same amount of evidence that there has never been a deity. Which is to say almost none. There are texts with assertions of eye witness accounts, but we both know that is the most unreliable form of evidence. People make stuff up, stories get embellished, when passed down verbally or in writing, they change, translating texts is difficult and easily screwed up. Not something that would normally be allowed as evidence in court.

IMHO, what we have is a lot of people claiming knowledge (or acting as if they know), when in reality they only believe. And to believe enough to take positive action based on that belief, again IMHO, that requires faith.


If I didn't pass your test, what do you believe would have been the right answer.

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Old 01-06-2013, 05:15   #109
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Pfft. Care to make a list of what science has wrong? Care to explain how any of physics is random? Pharmaceuticals? You do realize the production of them is a money making enterprise. I worked in pharmaceutical research. The producers have no problem distributing a product that takes a decade, two or more to be revealed as a harmful in the long run product.

You're intentionally being dense or simply are not capable of understanding.
The study of physics has changed a lot in even the last 70 years. A mere blink of the eye in historical terms. Even simple things have changed. Electrons orbiting protons and neutrons in valence level linear orbits was replaced by the electron cloud theory in my lifetime. Quantum physics has been a huge leap, even though all the theories don't quite match up. Some are now suggesting the Big Bang was actually a big chill.

If you thought something was one way, then discover it is actually different, are you wrong now, or were you wrong before.

One thing is certain about human knowledge. We have a lot to learn.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-06-2013 at 05:16..
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:03   #110
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One thing is certain about human knowledge. We have a lot to learn.
Exactly, which is why it is so foolish to hang on to ancient texts and the archaic mythos systems contained within. What we have learned and what we have yet to learn are so much more intriguing.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:15   #111
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Exactly, which is why it is so foolish to hang on to ancient texts and the archaic mythos systems contained within. What we have learned and what we have yet to learn are so much more intriguing.
Whether or not it is "foolish" is an opinion. Most religions have a lot of good things they teach, mainly about how to be good to one another. I said most, not all.

It's also a civil liberties issue. One cool thing about freedom is that everyone gets some, and if done right, no one dictates very much to others. I think watching basketball is a big waste of time, bores me half to death, but why would I want to ban it just because I don't like it. I'm sure that some people enjoy watching it.

Even if you make the case that religions slow the progress of science, that would only be in the religious people themselves, it does nothing to slow you.

Humans will never agree on everything. Consensus is a target that will not be reached.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:36   #112
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Most religions have a lot of good things they teach, mainly about how to be good to one another. I said most, not all.
Agreed, but most have a lot of bad things they teach as well (again most, not all).

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It's also a civil liberties issue. One cool thing about freedom is that everyone gets some, and if done right, no one dictates very much to others.
Also agreed, people have the right to be foolish. What they don't have a right to is to force that foolishness upon others.

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Even if you make the case that religions slow the progress of science, that would only be in the religious people themselves, it does nothing to slow you.
Except for the numerous instances in history where religion has attempted to do exactly that (e.g. the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages and Islam starting in the 11th century through modern times).

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Humans will never agree on everything. Consensus is a target that will not be reached.
Sadly not, we can't even seem to agree as a whole that one's opinion on the existence and/or nature of the divine is an idea not worth killing each other over.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

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Old 01-06-2013, 06:43   #113
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Why do I get the impression that some people like to argue, just for arguments sake. Even if at the end of the day, they agree with the stated premise. Doc?
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:20   #114
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Why do I get the impression that some people like to argue, just for arguments sake. Even if at the end of the day, they agree with the stated premise. Doc?
Argue, debate, pretty much the same thing. It's interesting to see what other people think.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:23   #115
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Agreed, but most have a lot of bad things they teach as well (again most, not all).



Also agreed, people have the right to be foolish. What they don't have a right to is to force that foolishness upon others.



Except for the numerous instances in history where religion has attempted to do exactly that (e.g. the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages and Islam starting in the 11th century through modern times).



Sadly not, we can't even seem to agree as a whole that one's opinion on the existence and/or nature of the divine is an idea not worth killing each other over.
If we look like we are heading into another dark ages, let me know. Looks like with the status quo, we know more now than ever, and have tools for discovery that are far beyond what people had even 10 years ago. Seems like no major changes are needed.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:31   #116
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If we look like we are heading into another dark ages, let me know. Looks like with the status quo, we know more now than ever, and have tools for discovery that are far beyond what people had even 10 years ago. Seems like no major changes are needed.
Over a billion people are in a dark age right now under the rule of radical Islam. Imagine how much further we could be right now if we had that cumulative brain power working toward expanding human knowledge instead of being enslaved by archaic dogma?

Just ask Snowbird if you want a corroborating theistic opinion. He'll describe to you in detail the dangers of radical Islam.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

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Old 01-06-2013, 07:45   #117
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Over a billion people are in a dark age right now under the rule of radical Islam. Imagine how much further we could be right now if we had that cumulative brain power working toward expanding human knowledge instead of being enslaved by archaic dogma?

Just ask Snowbird if you want a corroborating theistic opinion. He'll describe to you in detail the dangers of radical Islam.
I've met quite a few radical islamists. That is their problem. I cannot think of any way to liberate them.

What would you propose to fix the problem with radical islam, and how would that apply to the USA?
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:58   #118
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I've met quite a few radical islamists. That is their problem. I cannot think of any way to liberate them.

What would you propose to fix the problem with radical islam, and how would that apply to the USA?
Oh, I have no solutions to offer. If I did then I would be in the political arena trying to make a difference. I was just lamenting the tragic and massive loss of individual liberty and the similarly tragic loss to humanity that results from the oppression of so many under radical Islam. Would you not agree?

As for here in the US, my own modest contribution was much the same as yours. I took the oath of service to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic in the hopes of staving off the inevitable reemergence of such oppression here as long as possible.

Unfortunately, history is cyclical and we here in the US seem to have forgotten how bad that bad can get and seem primed to head down this dark road again in the not to distant future.
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CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

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Old 01-06-2013, 08:11   #119
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I'm uneducated? OK, what is your educational background? Anything that you've done that gives you special insight into life in general? Travel much?
...
I'm pretty sure he was calling you a troll, not uneducated.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:21   #120
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I'm pretty sure he was calling you a troll, not uneducated.
Name calling is a frequently used defense mechanism for him. In fact, It's common among quite a few posters here.

All I can say is that I am honest about what I post. Some seemed to feel threatened by the agnostic point of view.
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Old 01-06-2013, 08:28   #121
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Oh, I have no solutions to offer. If I did then I would be in the political arena trying to make a difference. I was just lamenting the tragic and massive loss of individual liberty and the similarly tragic loss to humanity that results from the oppression of so many under radical Islam. Would you not agree?

As for here in the US, my own modest contribution was much the same as yours. I took the oath of service to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic in the hopes of staving off the inevitable reemergence of such oppression here as long as possible.

Unfortunately, history is cyclical and we here in the US seem to have forgotten how bad that bad can get and seem primed to head down this dark road again in the not to distant future.
Yeah, it's sad that many people around the world, with secular and theocratic governments are repressed. I would not want to live under sharia, or a totalitarian communist government.

You have got to be kidding. The country is not heading that way at all as far as I can tell.

You're enlisting to stave off a repressive christian theocracy in the USA reminds me of the guy in stripes that enlisted so he wouldn't be drafted.

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Old 01-06-2013, 10:20   #122
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You have got to be kidding. The country is not heading that way at all as far as I can tell.

You're enlisting to stave off a repressive christian theocracy in the USA reminds me of the guy in stripes that enlisted so he wouldn't be drafted.
I'm afraid that yet again, you assume to much. For someone so quick to remind others that they can't possibly know things with certainty, you certainly jump to conclusions quite quickly.

I'm not "enlisting" to stave off a "christian theocracy" nor did I suggest that I think one is developing in this country or is likely to develop. I enlisted more than 20 years ago now to do my part in the last days of the Cold War. I was amongst the very last of the "SAC trained killers" (see my sig line). Did you think I was a young kid just joining up? You obviously have not being paying much attention to what I have said here.

No, we are not moving towards a christian thoeocracy. We seem to be moving to a more secular society which I feel is the right direction. However, as you correctly pointed out (pretty much the only thing you got right) tyranny can come from many sources. I don't know what the next threat will be, I have no crystal ball. I just fear that our generally safe and insulated society (which I am grateful for) has left us complacent and out of touch with the way most of the world works.

I've traveled a fair amount (as I suspect you have as well). Most of the world is not a very hospitable or just place. We live in a bubble of comfort and safety here in the US and that draws the envy (and sometimes hatred) of other nations/groups/sects. On 9/11 we saw what one particular group thinks of us. There are certainly others out there that wish us the same fate. Not many here consider those threats as they go about their lives, but that doesn't make them any less real.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:20   #123
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Just about the same amount of evidence that there has never been a deity.
I'm curious. You're the only person I've ever encountered that claims that the impossibility of proving something's non-existence is a fallacy. Would you please share with me how it is you think one could evidence or prove something's non-existence?

Quote:
There are texts with assertions of eye witness accounts, but we both know that is the most unreliable form of evidence. People make stuff up, stories get embellished, when passed down verbally or in writing, they change, translating texts is difficult and easily screwed up. Not something that would normally be allowed as evidence in court.
Especially when you consider that many of these tales and stories are passed down from when man was... shall we say... a little more simple in his knowledge of the world, nature, and the cosmos. It's like when children come running back from the woods trying to tell you about something awesome they saw. The story gets twisted and embelished. Often more grand and dramatic than what actually happened.

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IMHO, what we have is a lot of people claiming knowledge (or acting as if they know), when in reality they only believe. And to believe enough to take positive action based on that belief, again IMHO, that requires faith.
Well let me try and explain without being combative. I do not believe there is no God. Because I cannot say for sure. I simply dismiss the idea as there appears to be nothing that would amount to hard verifiable evidence that there is or ever has been one. I simply do not believe period.

Because of the unverifiable nature of the bible, the koran, and whatever other religious scroll and tablets you want to present... Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all belong lumped in with Greek, Roman, Scandinavian, Mesopotamian, Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and ect ect all other man made religions. Myths, Lore, and Legend of man in his infancy as an intellectual being.

I don't say this to be insulting, although most Christians, Jews, and Muslims will take it that way. But there really isn't anymore evidence to support Yahweh than there is to support Zeus.


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If I didn't pass your test, what do you believe would have been the right answer.
The best answer would have been no. But I await to read your ideals on evidencing something's non-existence to better understand how you think.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:33   #124
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http://departments.bloomu.edu/philos...eanegative.pdf

Professional logicians agree.


A person that just dismisses an idea, is usually not fixated on ridding the world of that idea. It's not a passive thing for you, you've said so yourself.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:38   #125
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I'm uneducated? OK, what is your educational background? Anything that you've done that gives you special insight into life in general? Travel much?

G36S,

The fact is that you are childishly lashing out at me because we simply disagree. You are probably insecure in your positions and in other areas of your life. Otherwise, you'd be able to make at least three posts in a row without attempting to insult someone.

Think for a minute, did anyone ever try to teach you manners and tact? Whoever that was is a miserable failure. Say hi to mom for me.
Thank you for proving my point once again.
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