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Old 01-23-2013, 08:06   #376
Syclone538
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Originally Posted by b_oglethorpe View Post
What I don't get about him. He said himself he is an agnostic atheist. What that means is he doesn't believe in god but he isn't really sure.

Don't get too bent out of shape because he can't even figure out what he believes in. Take it easy on the guy.

I would feel bad for him but he is a troll too. What a guy!!
Are you sure? I've never seen him say anything on if he believes, and I've tried to pry it out of him.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:21   #377
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
It isn't outrage, it's amusement. I could try to use more smilies in the future, if that would help.



It's possible for your opinion to be wrong.
That's not what you were asked. But it does say something interesting about your approach.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:28   #378
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Are you sure? I've never seen him say anything on if he believes, and I've tried to pry it out of him.
It's because it's not there to find. I'm honestly about as middle of the road agnostic as I can imagine. I give roughly even odds that life just happened as I do that it was created. I'm pretty comfortable with that. I'm not sure why that's so hard to believe.

In very simple terms, the question. Is there a god? Yes, no and maybe are acceptable answers. I'm closer to "maybe" than anything else.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:07   #379
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Are you sure? I've never seen him say anything on if he believes, and I've tried to pry it out of him.
Why, he believes that atheism is a religion. With ardor and faith even.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:20   #380
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Why, he believes that atheism is a religion. With ardor and faith even.
For many, it is. That's plainly evident. The question that thread asked, was why it's so hard to admit.

It's plain that it brings great discomfort to even let another person have that opinion.

Why do you think that is?
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:09   #381
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Guys... this is all an attempt to draw us away from the fact that he's made baseless claims and can't back them up. He's even trying to twist my words in another thread so he can drag it over here as proof of his point.

Let's enjoy the moment where it becomes so plain to all how full of crap he is.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:21   #382
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Guys... this is all an attempt to draw us away from the fact that he's made baseless claims and can't back them up. He's even trying to twist my words in another thread so he can drag it over here as proof of his point.

Let's enjoy the moment where it becomes so plain to all how full of crap he is.
You really don't see how silly you look, do you. You recently mentioned DMT in another thread, when was your last ingestion if i can ask?

I expressed an opinion, not even a firmly held one, and you are attempting to make something out of it. Objective observers are noticing.

Need more rope?
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:42   #383
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That's not what you were asked. But it does say something interesting about your approach.
You routinely don't answer the questions asked of you, but object when others do the same? I wonder why.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:50   #384
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For many, it is. That's plainly evident. The question that thread asked, was why it's so hard to admit.

It's plain that it brings great discomfort to even let another person have that opinion.

Why do you think that is?
That thread wasn't about whether atheism might be like a religion for some atheists; it was about your insistance it must be a religion for all atheists. Hence the annoyance.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:51   #385
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
You routinely don't answer the questions asked of you, but object when others do the same? I wonder why.
You're misunderstanding. How you responded was illustrative enough. It wasn't a complaint, just an observation.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:55   #386
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
You really don't see how silly you look, do you. You recently mentioned DMT in another thread, when was your last ingestion if i can ask?

I expressed an opinion, not even a firmly held one, and you are attempting to make something out of it. Objective observers are noticing.

Need more rope?
Objective observers may also be noticing you haven't actually said anything like "perhaps I misunderstood the argument."
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:57   #387
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You're misunderstanding. How you responded was illustrative enough. It wasn't a complaint, just an observation.
It was meant to be illustrative on a couple of levels.
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:14   #388
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
That thread wasn't about whether atheism might be like a religion for some atheists; it was about your insistance it must be a religion for all atheists. Hence the annoyance.
Not really. It was very much about why it's so hard to admit. There was a lot of questions and answers as to why some think it is, and some think it's not. I still think of it as a religion.

But in the end, ultimately, it's just a difference of opinion. I'm pretty sure that several times I understood that others did not agree, and that we should simply agree to disagree.

Why should it bother you if I think atheism is a religion? I've had many people tell me that agnosticism was a religion too, and it's never caused me a moments irritation. I can't even remember who it was. Because its not a big deal. Point out that belief that there is no god is an assumption too, not much different that theism, and all of a sudden people are freaking out.

Hmmmm. Maybe we should start a new thread about why it's so hard to tolerate other opinions about events that happened between 6000 and a hundred trillion years ago?

What do you think?
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:15   #389
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It was meant to be illustrative on a couple of levels.
It was.
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:29   #390
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
Objective observers may also be noticing you haven't actually said anything like "perhaps I misunderstood the argument."
Oh, everyone understood it, well, except for maybe one guy.

I made an observation, an admitted simplistic paraphrasing, that some seem to be using evolution do disprove theism. Then some started demanding proof. Proof of what? That it seems that way to me? I had assumed that you an AM knew how redicilous it would be to demand that someone show proof that something seemed a certain way to someone else. Now I'm not so sure. Were you just showing your backside, or were you serious??? I thought you were more organized than that.

Any way. GH started another thread right on time to prove the point anyway. Because it seems to me, that he was using evolution to argue against the existence of a deity, at least a benevolent one.

Really, tell me you were not being serious.
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:31   #391
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...Point out that belief that there is no god is an assumption too, not much different that theism, and all of a sudden people are freaking out...
Not much different than assuming there are such things as gods? Really? I'm going to have to disagree, there. Lack of belief in something there is zero physical evidence for is "not much different" than belief in an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful sentient creator that there is zero physical evidence for. Did you honestly mean that?

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...What do you think?
I think that you either believe God/gods exist or you do not. If you do not, whether you are *certain* they don't exist, or not, you're an atheist. That is the one and only thing necessary to be an atheist.

As such, it cannot possibly be considered a "religion" as there are no other necessary morals, ideals, traditions, ceremonies or culture that all atheists must follow. To that same end, being a theist isn't a religion, either.
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:33   #392
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Not really. It was very much about why it's so hard to admit.
You're free to claim that, but the thread was "why is it difficult to admit atheism is a religion?" and not "is atheism a religion for some atheists?"

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There was a lot of questions and answers as to why some think it is, and some think it's not. I still think of it as a religion.
And looky there.

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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
But in the end, ultimately, it's just a difference of opinion. I'm pretty sure that several times I understood that others did not agree, and that we should simply agree to disagree.

Why should it bother you if I think atheism is a religion? I've had many people tell me that agnosticism was a religion too, and it's never caused me a moments irritation. I can't even remember who it was. Because its not a big deal. Point out that belief that there is no god is an assumption too, not much different that theism, and all of a sudden people are freaking out.

Hmmmm. Maybe we should start a new thread about why it's so hard to tolerate other opinions about events that happened between 6000 and a hundred trillion years ago?

What do you think?
Are you going to stipulate only your opinions and cites as acceptable?
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:38   #393
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Oh, everyone understood it, well, except for maybe one guy.

I made an observation, an admitted simplistic paraphrasing, that some seem to be using evolution do disprove theism. Then some started demanding proof. Proof of what? That it seems that way to me? I had assumed that you an AM knew how redicilous it would be to demand that someone show proof that something seemed a certain way to someone else. Now I'm not so sure. Were you just showing your backside, or were you serious??? I thought you were more organized than that.

Any way. GH started another thread right on time to prove the point anyway. Because it seems to me, that he was using evolution to argue against the existence of a deity, at least a benevolent one.

Really, tell me you were not being serious.
Seriously asking you to provide evidence (not proof) someone seemed to be making that argument? Yes I was, and I got what I expected.
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Old 01-23-2013, 13:45   #394
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Evidence. Testimony. Statement.

It seemed that way to me.

Done.


Really? You guys are a riot.
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Old 01-23-2013, 15:37   #395
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Evidence. Testimony. Statement.

It seemed that way to me.

Done.


Really? You guys are a riot.
The feeling's mutual.

The debate wasn't that you misinterpreted a statement about evolution being a claim of evidence against deity, it was whether your misinterpretation was reasonably justified, which was why evidence, an example of someone making such a statement, was requested. Your handwaving and dodging do amuse, though.
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Old 01-23-2013, 16:25   #396
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The feeling's mutual.

The debate wasn't that you misinterpreted a statement about evolution being a claim of evidence against deity, it was whether your misinterpretation was reasonably justified, which was why evidence, an example of someone making such a statement, was requested. Your handwaving and dodging do amuse, though.
Now he thinks by saying something "seems to be" so to him that that means it is.

This coming from someone that has admitted to taking drugs that can cause mental health issues.
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Old 01-23-2013, 16:52   #397
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Not much different than assuming there are such things as gods? Really? I'm going to have to disagree, there. Lack of belief in something there is zero physical evidence for is "not much different" than belief in an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful sentient creator that there is zero physical evidence for. Did you honestly mean that?
Consider it from my perspective. We all have our own way of looking at things.

Well, I'm pretty sure that cellular life was either created or happened through a process of natural phenomena. When asked if there is a god, there are three main answers: Yes, no & Maybe. I fall into the maybe group. Roughly even odds for either.

When I am talking about theism, I am not talking about a specific deity. I don't know the guy or gal, so I don't make too many assumptions. I don't even know if a deity has to be omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. Personal or indifferent, or even dead now. Maybe it's the god Einstein believed in (a surprise for many that he was not an atheist).

Atheist > > Agnostic < < Theist.

That's it in it's simplest form. I see myself in the middle. Look one way, and at the far end, there are people that believe, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there is a god. Look the other, and there are people that believe, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there is no god. Of course it's not a digital system, it's analog. There are shades of gray in between the labels, and differences in theism and atheism, and even agnosticism. I doubt that many of us would agree with anyone on the forum on every single issue. So, just like everyone else, we are all unique.

I have been asking people for a long time if they thought it was reasonable to consider the other possibility might be possible. Beyond a reasonable doubt is a strong enough belief to put people to death, and whether others believe it or not, I find that is evidence of more than a simple lack of belief, especially if they have gone to much effort at all to convince others that no deity has existed. Some have described it as a very important part of their life.(you guys know who you are )







Quote:
I think that you either believe God/gods exist or you do not. If you do not, whether you are *certain* they don't exist, or not, you're an atheist. That is the one and only thing necessary to be an atheist.
I used to be sure there was a god. Then later, I was sure there was no god, and had never been one.

After a lot of contemplation, and a much better understanding of life, people, and human nature, I came to an understanding that I really didn't know nearly enough to really be sure one way or the other. I've spoken to some very well educated people, well respected doctorate level physiologists, chemists, biochemists and medical personnel in numerous different fields. Those guys don't know everything. They still hire plumbers, electricians, dentists, and other experts. When you really start to consider all the fields that you are not an expert in, and how much one has to know to be even moderately proficient in, there is a lot that we don't know. If given all of the raw materials, most of us could not make a simple aerosol can.

But so many people believe they know whether a god existed or not. With no evidence either way. No witnesses to the beginning of life. No way to see it happen, because it is in the past, and yet, some define themselves by this belief.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is strong enough for me to consider it an active belief. At that point, decisions are made based on the belief.


Quote:
As such, it cannot possibly be considered a "religion" as there are no other necessary morals, ideals, traditions, ceremonies or culture that all atheists must follow. To that same end, being a theist isn't a religion, either.
This is where perspective comes in. If you are an atheist, and I mean the ones that truly believe there has never been a deity, I can see where they reject the "religion" label, and cling to the passive lack of belief thing, which from my perspective has become a meaningless cliche. I don't believe in santa claus, but I am not on a mission to eliminate all images or references to him, or make fun of little kids in line at the mall waiting to see him. Why would I. I have a passive lack of belief in santa clause as depicted today (*see coca cola ads), but it's possible that there was a man, or a few men that were somewhat similar, that did bring joy to little kids by making toys, and giving them away to the good ones. The story is distorted now, but once upon a time, he may have been very real.


Perspective. I understand that some theists might see me as an atheist. Some atheists might see me as an atheist. I take no offense at that. I disagree. I see me as an agnostic.

I see theists and atheists as having chosen an answer to the question, opposing answers yes, but still an answer. Both are assumptions and incorrect use of data to their own ends.

But again, that's just my opinion. It does no one any harm at all that I have that opinion. I'm not building a broad coalition of people in real life, or filing lawsuits to ..... well, I'm not even sure what I would file, but you get the point. I am not trying to get you to adopt my beliefs, maybe understand them, but you get to make up your own mind on what you believe. That's one of the cool things about the first amendment, not only do you get to decide what to believe, you can do it openly here.


It's just another opinion from another perspective.
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Old 01-23-2013, 16:54   #398
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Originally Posted by ksg0245 View Post
The feeling's mutual.

The debate wasn't that you misinterpreted a statement about evolution being a claim of evidence against deity, it was whether your misinterpretation was reasonably justified, which was why evidence, an example of someone making such a statement, was requested. Your handwaving and dodging do amuse, though.
You're killing me. Don't get yer hopes up, not literally.

You were being serious. That is flippin rich.

No more rope for you. You need a break.
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Old 01-23-2013, 17:03   #399
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Now he thinks by saying something "seems to be" so to him that that means it is.

Wow, you guys.

If I make a claim that something seems to me......

You demand absolute proof that it is. What a dishonest tactic, and the fact that I thought others got it and were just being DB's, I knew you didn't get it.

Thanks for the laugh.

Quote:

This coming from someone that has admitted to taking drugs that can cause mental health issues.
Sure thing shroom man. When was your last negative tox screen?

The Mefloquin was about 18 years ago. It's for malaria. The vivid dreams stop when you stop the medicine, but if you were a real doctor, you'd have known that, or even understood what you were reading after googling it.

Call your dad, he can tell you probably about half of what I could tell you about it without cracking open a reference. When you are going to give it to 650 guys around you with live ammo, 120mm and below, that kind of stuff interests you and the boss. But you'll believe a real doctor. Do me a favor and tell him exactly why you are asking. He'll be so proud of you then......


You are so much fun today. You can have some more rope.
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Old 01-23-2013, 17:29   #400
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You're killing me. Don't get yer hopes up, not literally.

You were being serious. That is flippin rich.

No more rope for you. You need a break.
You're right, it was stupid of me to expect honest debate from you, given your previous behavior. Wave and dance, practice makes perfect.
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