Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2013, 19:37   #1
mjkeat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,450
Brass vs. Steel

Below is an article I've been waiting to read for some time.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/
mjkeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 19:42   #2
faawrenchbndr
CLM Number 281
DirtyThirty fan
 
faawrenchbndr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: east of East St. Louis
Posts: 34,728
This will surely turn into a pissing match argument.
faawrenchbndr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 20:02   #3
c01
Crazy Eye
 
c01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Spokane
Posts: 554
Blog Entries: 1
It appears that the Federal won the day. I'm still not sure if it was the steel case or if it is the powder they use that causes issues.
I'm reloading my brass now FWIW.

D
c01 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 20:11   #4
mjkeat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,450
I hope not. It shouldn't. Ive been a proponent of steel cased ammunition for years. I felt it allowed people to shoot more due to the lower costs. Now I have to calculate barrel cost. 4k rounds is a large difference.

I have had better experiences w/ the like of Tula then they did during this testing. Accuracy never seemed to be an issue. In fact I was hitting steel at 400 yards 2 weekends ago in a 20 MPH cross wind w/ a 14.5" LW BCM w/ 4MOA RDS.

I'm a little taken aback and will be reevaluating my choice in ammunition.
mjkeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 20:15   #5
GSSF17
...2 of 'em
 
GSSF17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,281
Interesting. Thanks, MJKeat, for posting that.
__________________
-Rimfire Club#1097 -Florida Glockers Club#1097 -Black Rifle Club #1097 -Certified Glock Armorer

RIP John Noveske- 1976 - 2013
GSSF17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 20:24   #6
mjkeat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,450
No problem. I've been waiting for this to be released for a couple+ months. It was nice that someone had the resources to do it.
mjkeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 20:53   #7
Matthew Courtney
CLM Number 285
Instructor #298
 
Matthew Courtney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lake Charles
Posts: 5,986
Good stuff. Thanks for posting!
__________________
You will never begin in the fight you have planned for. You will begin in the fight the other guy has planned for. Retreat in a manner that leads him into your fight should he press his attack.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Matthew Courtney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 20:57   #8
pag23
Senior Member
 
pag23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 1,082
Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
This will surely turn into a pissing match argument.

I hope not... nice avatar again by the way ....

I prefer brass myself but it is very informative article.. Thanks mj
__________________
G23 & G17 Gen 4
HK P30 V1...
pag23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 21:23   #9
faawrenchbndr
CLM Number 281
DirtyThirty fan
 
faawrenchbndr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: east of East St. Louis
Posts: 34,728
Nice write up Mike!
faawrenchbndr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2013, 21:40   #10
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 24,375
And they used bushmaster rifles, that shot 10k rounds each.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius
vafish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 06:26   #11
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 24,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjkeat View Post
I hope not. It shouldn't. Ive been a proponent of steel cased ammunition for years. I felt it allowed people to shoot more due to the lower costs. Now I have to calculate barrel cost. 4k rounds is a large difference.

I have had better experiences w/ the like of Tula then they did during this testing. Accuracy never seemed to be an issue. In fact I was hitting steel at 400 yards 2 weekends ago in a 20 MPH cross wind w/ a 14.5" LW BCM w/ 4MOA RDS.

I'm a little taken aback and will be reevaluating my choice in ammunition.
I don't see why you should change, if you read the final section where they compare costs, even if you have to replace barrels every 4,000 rounds for steel vs 10,000 rounds for brass, it is cheaper to shoot steel than brass cased ammo.

I really don't see this creating a lot if arguments either. It proves what moat people thought already, shooting steel cased ammo with bimetal bullets wears out guns faster than more expensive brass cased ammo does. It gives everyone the data to decide if it is cost effective for them to shoot steel cased.

The article also proved that while the bushmaster carbines could go 10,000 rounds without a major failure, half the rifles in the test had a quality control issue in manufacture. The problems were easily fixed.

So you want to buy a gun that will go 10k rounds without a failure and not require an armorer or knowledgeable owner with tools, get a top tier rifle. However, you can save a lot of money buying a mid tier rifle, shoot cheap steel cased ammo and learn how to repair your rifle.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius

Last edited by vafish; 01-09-2013 at 06:34..
vafish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 07:51   #12
J-Pat
McBastage
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by vafish View Post
I don't see why you should change, if you read the final section where they compare costs, even if you have to replace barrels every 4,000 rounds for steel vs 10,000 rounds for brass, it is cheaper to shoot steel than brass cased ammo.

I really don't see this creating a lot if arguments either. It proves what moat people thought already, shooting steel cased ammo with bimetal bullets wears out guns faster than more expensive brass cased ammo does. It gives everyone the data to decide if it is cost effective for them to shoot steel cased.

The article also proved that while the bushmaster carbines could go 10,000 rounds without a major failure, half the rifles in the test had a quality control issue in manufacture. The problems were easily fixed.

So you want to buy a gun that will go 10k rounds without a failure and not require an armorer or knowledgeable owner with tools, get a top tier rifle. However, you can save a lot of money buying a mid tier rifle, shoot cheap steel cased ammo and learn how to repair your rifle.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
This precisely. I don't understand why people are so "down" on a few brands of rifles here. If there wasn't a market share for Bushmaster rifles, they wouldn't exist! I realize there is a difference in manufacturing techniques- but most people who are buying an AR15 aren't "elite" shooters. They're people worried about home defense, or casual range plinkers. The (average) price difference between a bushmaster and a Colt (or better) can be a couple thousand rounds of ammunition down the pipe or a few traning classes! 95% of all the folks I've met could use the target practice and maintenance technique before they could utilize a "better" rifle.

There are folks who can truly squeeze every last drop of performance from a firearm. These are the people who should buy the Colts/Larue/Noveske rifles! I can truthfully say that this is NOT me. I'm a slightly better than average shooting Joe with a hobby. To me, a firearm is a big investment for the future- so I don't mind the premium. For most folks, this is not the case- the gun will be placed in a safe/closet and hardly, if ever be handled.

I think the Colt/BCM++ rifles are amazing pieces and I would love to own a ultra nice one some day- but as I've stated above, the range time and mechanical know how would suit the general masses much better.
J-Pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:01   #13
Travclem
Lifetime Membership
Badass Member
 
Travclem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Lubbock, TX
Posts: 6,745
Good read, thanks for posting!
__________________
Sent from a payphone in a whorehouse in Mexico.
__________________
Travclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:22   #14
Gunnut 45/454
Senior Member
 
Gunnut 45/454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 14,050
vafish
Well what happens if a ban goes into effect and you can't get a new barrel? Can you find a barrel right now? The point of the article from my veiw is the Bi metal bullets kill your barrel alot faster then good old copper jacketed bullets. The good thing is since I shoot alot of cast bullets my barrels should last along time!!
__________________
Gunnut45/454-One shot one kill!
Gunnut 45/454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 10:27   #15
mjkeat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 3,450
I have fired roughly 5k rounds of mixed XM193, Tula, and Wolf through my BCM and DD in the last 14+/- months w/o ever experiencing a stuck case. I have also only experienced 2 short stroke malfunctions and 1-2 failure to fires.

This is just a very very very small sample but it makes me think. The meaning is minimal at best I imagine, but something that interests me.

As far as reevaluating my ammunition choice. Finding barrels is impossible at the moment. I've seen more ammunition for sale than barrels.

I'm betting outings where I fire large amounts of ammunition are going to be few and far b/w for the foreseeable future. The price of ammunition will not allow it.

Last edited by mjkeat; 01-09-2013 at 10:28..
mjkeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:11   #16
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Pat View Post
This precisely. I don't understand why people are so "down" on a few brands of rifles here. If there wasn't a market share for Bushmaster rifles, they wouldn't exist!
Lots and lots of buyers don't have a clue what they are doing/buying, and lots and lost of rifles see <1k rounds in their lifetime.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 01-09-2013 at 11:12..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 11:29   #17
vafish
Senior Member
 
vafish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 24,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
vafish
Well what happens if a ban goes into effect and you can't get a new barrel? Can you find a barrel right now? The point of the article from my veiw is the Bi metal bullets kill your barrel alot faster then good old copper jacketed bullets. The good thing is since I shoot alot of cast bullets my barrels should last along time!!
If the ban is so bad you can't get a barrel to fix an existing gun, you probably won't be able to buy ammo either.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
__________________
"If your plan is for one year, plant rice.
If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
If your plan is for one hundred years,
educate children." -- Confucius
vafish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 12:00   #18
J-Pat
McBastage
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Posts: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Lots and lots of buyers don't have a clue what they are doing/buying, and lots and lost of rifles see <1k rounds in their lifetime.
I agree!

There is also a big problem with customer perception. The customer perceives two guns that look exactly alike, seem to function exactly the same, and cannot tell the difference between the two, save a little marking on the left hand side, except one has a $600 pricetag, and one has an $1100 pricetag.

It doesn't take a genius to tell what the general public will pick.

But, even if they know the differences, with the margins of difference that small, for somebody who knows what they are doing- a Bushmaster still might be the "better choice" over a Colt.

(Before the retarded pricing we see) $500 would get you a thousand rounds and a class. That's a pretty sweet deal vs. a naked rifle for an informed person who can "fix" the problems a Bushmaster may have.

At the end of the day, a $2500 Noveske is still a better rifle- there is no denying it. ...but a $600 Bushmaster with $1900 of ammunition, practice and training will make a better shooter. For some people, the Noveske is a better buy, for some a Bushmaster- it's all about situation and funding

Last edited by J-Pat; 01-09-2013 at 12:06..
J-Pat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 12:15   #19
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 58,197


Let the buyer beware.

There is never a free lunch. Stick with brass ammo for better ammo reliability and barrel wear with higher ammo cost, or go with steel ammo for cheaper price and more barrel wear and a bit less reliability (or in the Tula, a lot less depending on the rifle).

For the people with money, a Noveske or OBR coupled with Black Hills ammo is the best combination. But how many people can afford top notch rifle and top notch ammo?

As for me, I'll get whatever ammo I can get and if the barrel wears out, then I'll replace it. By the time I spend enough money on ammo to wear out the barrel with steel case ammo, then I'd better have enough fund to replace the barrel and other parts. Most parts on the guns are disposable anyway. Barrels get worn out, mags get worn out, extractors get worn out, gas keys cracked, gas tubes cracked, etc. No difference than changing out tires, brake pads, filters and hoses in a car. Gotta factor in service & maintenance cost in your gun if you're going to pump out a lot of rounds.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2013, 12:23   #20
dkf
Senior Member
 
dkf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,737
Nice article. Posted it on another forum. Think I will use brass only and reload all my ammo when I get my new AR.
dkf is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:57.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 941
299 Members
642 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31