[DaBurna]

I guess we XD-s 45ers are SOL since we all have 3.3"bbl?

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by DaBurna

I guess we XD-s 45ers are SOL since we all have 3.3"bbl?

Yup, we could save a lot of trouble by just throwing the bullets, we don't need the gun since the barrel is too short.

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by countrygun

Yup, we could save a lot of trouble by just throwing the bullets, we don't need the gun since the barrel is too short.

CM

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by barth

The magtech 185gr +p round looks very good out of the 3-inch barrel.

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by Redstate

It appears that 1911 with 3" barrels are becoming more and more popular for carry.

So what? I mean, really? They're seemingly becoming more marketable to sell, at any rate. But yes, some folks "like" small guns ...

Originally Posted by Redstate

Without doubt, the 3" barrel will have a velocity loss from a 5" barrel.

Naturally. The thing to consider, though, is whether the specific hollowpoint design chosen for dedicated defensive use in a short-barreled .45 has been designed by the manufacturer to robustly & consistently expand (within reason, depending on the circumstances) when fired from short-barreled pistols.

Tweaking the hollowpoint design so the desired expansion occurs within a velocity window with a lower threshold is something some manufacturers appear to have had their engineers working on.

Originally Posted by Redstate

Is anyone aware of any terminal ballistics tests for these short barrel 1911s?

A little. I've seen & learned of some occasional gel testing done. I've stopped concerning myself overly much with this subject after having chosen a small selection of modern hollowpoint designs for use in my short-barreled .45's, at least 2 of which are commonly available on the commercial market (meaning not ordinarily restricted to LE/Gov sales).

Here's the thing, though ...

If you're talking about subcompact 1911-style pistols, then I'd be much more concerned about whether a particular load/bullet design would consistently & reliably feed & function in any particular pistol, and that the specific magazines being used would work with that ammo & pistol.

After all, it's not uncommon to hear how reduced size 1911-style pistols are often less tolerant of both shooter & ammo influences than larger 1911's. I remember when experienced owners & users still looked askance at 4 1/4" Commanders when it came to consistently reliable feeding & functioning with hollowpoints, preferring 5" guns for their more established functioning.

Nowadays the "Commander length" has come to be accepted as 4 1/4" or 4" guns, and shorter barreled guns of 1911 & other style guns have been produced with barrels running 3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.75" & 3.78". The reaction of some of the major American ammo companies seems to have been to start taking into account the presence of shorter barreled plainclothes, off-duty & UC weapons being used by their LE/Gov clients ... as well as the private owner.

So ... my first and foremost concern is whether the potential defensive ammo selection I'm making will offer me consistently reliable feeding & functioning, especially under demanding drills (1 & 2-handed, strong & non-dominant hand, barricade/cover, shooting while moving & while being stationary, hot & cold, wet & dry, blowing wind, etc).

Then I look into the reported expansion & penetration of the rounds which demonstrate good feeding & functioning.

I don't limit myself to just a single type of hollowpoint, though.

First of all, I've had my duty & approved purchase loads change from time to time.

Secondly, supply & demand & manufacturing issues can interrupt consistent availability of any particular load.

At the moment I have 230gr Win RA45T & RA45TP (+P) T-Series, 230gr Rem Golden Sabre HPJ (BJHP, non-bonded) & Speer 230gr Gold Dot HP among my usual carry loads. I have older stocks of other old-style JHP's still among my ammo collection, which I'd use if that was all I had at hand at some moment in time (and I've done so) ... but that's because they've demonstrated acceptable feeding & functioning in my guns, in my hands, and have done so upon repeated occasions for training, practice & quals.

The gun's gotta reliably & consistently feed & run with whatever is selected.

The shooter's gotta be able to get the gun & ammo to run in his/her hands, under all perceived & anticipated conditions likely to be experienced.

The particular gun & magazines gotta be maintained so they continue to reliably work with that ammo, in that shooter's hands.

It might be prudent to consider periodic retesting of new boxes/production lots of the selected ammo, to confirm continued optimal feeding & functioning.

After all that? Sure, given my druthers I'd prefer to have one of the more modern designed hollowpoints that offer increased potential to "ballistically perform" when fired from short-barreled .45's ... but the gun & shooter's gotta be able to get them to the intended threat target, right?

Just my thoughts ...

[SCmasterblaster]

I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?

I think it's kind of moot to ponder because it depends on what it hits and any expansion at all is going to leave the #2 choice way back

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?

The fast answer amigo, is it depends on what they hit. The 2nd part to that, is it 'don't matter,' as long as they get to the vitals, that is the goal. If they don't get there, why use 'em...



Stay safe pard.







CanyonMan

[SCmasterblaster]

I keep forgetting that the .45 doesn't have to expand much. It is already at .45 caliber.

[1canvas]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?

I would have confidence in a 230grn HST or maybe a Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo.

[rustytxrx]

When we talk about defensive round we seem to separate the bullet performance from the pistol.

Did you ever stand back and watch folks shooting their compact 1911 45 acp at the range? 1 in 10 can actually shoot their 1911 compact defensively. They carefully aim the sights for several seconds. It is as if the test is for the smallest group size.

230 gr top end defensive ammo lifts barrel on my 3" kimber. You have practice and be pretty strong to get to get 3 shots off with good splits.

I think the Speer 165 gr short barrel round is more controllable. I have ran test in the bullet. I think it will work. Well if you think 3 shots in 4 - 6 inch group centered on the chest is good enough at 7 yds.

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?

230gr Winchester Ranger SXT/T-Series, standard and +P versions, fired from a 3.25" CS45 into a gel block covered by 4 layers of new denim (can't remember if it was 14oz or 16ox at the moment), recorded at 802fps & 839fps, as I recall (I'd have to find my notes at home).




Interestingly enough, one of the same loads didn't fully expand when fired out of a Commander (4.25"), even though it produced more velocity. At a guess, maybe a couple of the nose cavity/petal notches weren't cut in the normal/intended manner. Dunno.

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

230gr Winchester Ranger SXT/T-Series, standard and +P versions, fired from a 3.25" CS45 into a gel block covered by 4 layers of new denim (can't remember if it was 14oz or 16ox at the moment), recorded at 802fps & 839fps, as I recall (I'd have to find my notes at home).




Interestingly enough, one of the same loads didn't fully expand when fired out of a Commander (4.25"), even though it produced more velocity. At a guess, maybe a couple of the nose cavity/petal notches weren't cut in the normal/intended manner. Dunno.

What kind of penetration did they get amigo ?






CM

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

230gr Winchester Ranger SXT/T-Series, standard and +P versions, fired from a 3.25" CS45 into a gel block covered by 4 layers of new denim (can't remember if it was 14oz or 16ox at the moment), recorded at 802fps & 839fps, as I recall (I'd have to find my notes at home).




Interestingly enough, one of the same loads didn't fully expand when fired out of a Commander (4.25"), even though it produced more velocity. At a guess, maybe a couple of the nose cavity/petal notches weren't cut in the normal/intended manner. Dunno.

Awesome expansion!

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by CanyonMan

What kind of penetration did they get amigo ?
CM

Found an earlier listing when I had my notes at hand ...

In the CS45, the standard pressure load did 802fps/13"pen/.77" expansion, and the +P load did 839fps/12"/.76".

In the Colt Commander we saw the standard pressure round do 846fps/14"/.79" and the +P round do 901fps/11.5"/.77"

Who knows what more rounds might've exhibited, as there aren't any guarantees.

[SCmasterblaster]

just how excellent the .45 ACP cartridge is.

[Redstate]

Thanks fastbolt. Good information. Looks like your 3.25 does just fine.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

Found an earlier listing when I had my notes at hand ...

In the CS45, the standard pressure load did 802fps/13"pen/.77" expansion, and the +P load did 839fps/12"/.76".

In the Colt Commander we saw the standard pressure round do 846fps/14"/.79" and the +P round do 901fps/11.5"/.77"

Who knows what more rounds might've exhibited, as there aren't any guarantees.

What are the bullet weights here?

[countrygun]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

What are the bullet weights here?

I think he said 230 gn

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by countrygun

I think he said 230 gn

230 gr makes sense.

[CanyonMan]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

Found an earlier listing when I had my notes at hand ...

In the CS45, the standard pressure load did 802fps/13"pen/.77" expansion, and the +P load did 839fps/12"/.76".

In the Colt Commander we saw the standard pressure round do 846fps/14"/.79" and the +P round do 901fps/11.5"/.77"

Who knows what more rounds might've exhibited, as there aren't any guarantees.

Thanks fastbolt, That goes along with what we're seeing out of these short/medium barrel lengths,at those "approx:" vels.


Got some more to share latter... Right now , as usual, gotta run right quick. Hope to be back and share some findings with you/all ....




Sray safe pard











CanyonMan

[fastbolt]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

What are the bullet weights here?

230gr loads.

[WinterWizard]

Stay away from hot 165gr and 185gr loads. Penetration sucks due to vastly reduced sectional density. Not worth it.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by WinterWizard

Stay away from hot 165gr and 185gr loads. Penetration sucks due to vastly reduced sectional density. Not worth it.

Even with the 185 gr JHPs at 1050 FPS? It seems to me that they would penetrate well.

[WinterWizard]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Even with the 185 gr JHPs at 1050 FPS? It seems to me that they would penetrate well.

Not in the tests data I've seen. It's not uncommon to see only like 9 or 10" with the ligher .45 acp loads.

And you can get 200 gr +P bullets at 1050 or even 1080 fps. 185gr +P are in the 1150 fps range.

They just don't have the momentum of the heavier 200 and 230gr bullets. They open up and slow down quick. Perhaps the 12-15" of penetration is a tad overrated, but I'd rather have it and not need it then the other way around, since penetration is the MOST important factor in terminal ballistics.

Now, that being said, one of the bullets that hit that scumbag in the stomach at that Ohio gas station shooting from about 1.5 years ago was a Corbon Pow'r Ball 165gr +P rated at 1225 fps (shot from a G36, so probably about 1100-1125 fps-ish). The other bullet, that also hit him in the stomach, was a regular pressure 230gr FMJ. That kid was on the ground in a split second in utter pain, begging for his life like a whimpering dog. And those were stomach shots and he was very determined to hurt the young man he was assaulting. The Pow'r Ball caused massive damage and stayed inside, and the FMJ blew right out his lower back. Had they been chest shots, he for sure would be dead.

Anecdotal evidence aside, almost all 230gr loads penetrate more, open up bigger and have more momentum than the lighter loads. Why would you choose the less effective load unless you fell for the velocity/energy marketing scam?