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Old 02-07-2013, 01:36   #51
Tiro Fijo
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
...Now, that being said, one of the bullets that hit that scumbag in the stomach at that Ohio gas station shooting from about 1.5 years ago was a Corbon Pow'r Ball 165gr +P rated at 1225 fps (shot from a G36, so probably about 1100-1125 fps-ish). The other bullet, that also hit him in the stomach, was a regular pressure 230gr FMJ. That kid was on the ground in a split second in utter pain, begging for his life like a whimpering dog...

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Old 02-07-2013, 02:13   #52
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I figure fastbolt (as usual) illustrates things perfectly;

A good full weight 230gr load will do the job in a short bbl. Worst case, you get no expansion but plenty of penetration with a blunt 230gr already .451 diameter slug.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:26   #53
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I figure fastbolt (as usual) illustrates things perfectly;

A good full weight 230gr load will do the job in a short bbl. Worst case, you get no expansion but plenty of penetration with a blunt 230gr already .451 diameter slug.
So true. One wonders why the .45 ammo makers try so hard to produce an expanding bullet. It leaves the barrel at .45 caliber already.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:37   #54
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So true. One wonders why the .45 ammo makers try so hard to produce an expanding bullet. It leaves the barrel at .45 caliber already.
Cutting and increased wounding effectiveness, as well as the reduced potential for perforation (over-penetration).
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:42   #55
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Cutting and increased wounding effectiveness, as well as the reduced potential for perforation (over-penetration).
So true. The .45ACP 230gr FMJ does penetrate a lot.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:56   #56
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It's hard to try and predict what any particular handgun bullet will do, though.

I remember a fatal shooting where a .45 FMJ entered a victim's upper COM (frontal shot) and was deflected so it ended up in the lower torso, damaging critical organs along its path. If I remember right, I was told the bullet had been deflected downward upon hitting the anterior part of one of the scapula.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:02   #57
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I figure fastbolt (as usual) illustrates things perfectly;

A good full weight 230gr load will do the job in a short bbl. Worst case, you get no expansion but plenty of penetration with a blunt 230gr already .451 diameter slug.

Because they don't cut a perfect .451" hole, whether it be a RN hardball round or a HP that doesn't expand. Think about it. Hardball slips right through a body (if no large bones are hit) and the flesh mostly snaps right back. The HP cavity is smaller than .451" on an unexpanded HP. A pure full WC bullet will cut a .451" hole however.

When using short barrel .45's it's best to use a lighter weight HP that has a better chance of expanding, IMO. Personally, I would use the Speer 200 gr. GD and possibly the +p version. The bigger 230 gr. bullets seem to work far better in 5" barrel service length guns. The only exception being the Fed. 230 gr. HST which according to ATK has an expansion "floor" of 725 fps. Maybe the fella with the Mouseguns website has tested it in a short barrel(?).
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:31   #58
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When we talk about defensive round we seem to separate the bullet performance from the pistol.

Did you ever stand back and watch folks shooting their compact 1911 45 acp at the range? 1 in 10 can actually shoot their 1911 compact defensively. They carefully aim the sights for several seconds. It is as if the test is for the smallest group size.

230 gr top end defensive ammo lifts barrel on my 3" kimber. You have practice and be pretty strong to get to get 3 shots off with good splits.

I think the Speer 165 gr short barrel round is more controllable. I have ran test in the bullet. I think it will work. Well if you think 3 shots in 4 - 6 inch group centered on the chest is good enough at 7 yds.
Which is why I am not a fan of +P rounds in the small/light guns. Dropping just one bullet wt, like the 200grXTP, keeps my split times & accuracy sim to my heavier competition guns using 230gr loads. I don't feel I give up much w/ a 200gr XTP @ 850fps in my 1911OM or my 1911PD @ 900fps. It will expand to 60cal+ & penetrate as deep as some other 230gr going slower. Even most 185gr JHP loads work better from shorter bbls as the reduced vel means slightly less expansion & more penetration. IMO, still a better choice than a 230gr+P load to get vel up. The std pressure 185gr RGS or 185gr XTP or 185gr GDHP is not a bad choice for the short bbl guns.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:32   #59
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If I had a short-barreled .45 ACP, I would load it with CorBon 185gr JHPs.
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Old 03-18-2013, 21:00   #60
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I shot some of the Gold Dot SB loads out of my 36 and clocked them at approx 780fps. In comparison, I shot Federal HST 230 +p that clocked at 850fps and Win. Ranger Talon 230 +p at 880fps. A 230gr HP at 850-880fps out of a 36 will def. get the job done if u put them where them need to be. My handloads are only 750fps w/ a 230 FMJ for range/practice use.
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Old 03-19-2013, 13:32   #61
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This stuff is all an exercise in balancing the various parts of the overall "compromise" you're willing to accept.

These things may look like a huge Venn diagram, with different parts being:

*Feeding reliability
*Extraction/ejection consistency (slide run & recoil force)
*Inherent & practical accuracy in any particular gun
*Controllability & recoil management
*Bullet design
*Velocity window for optimal expansion

Where do these things overlap in your gun, being handled & fired in your hands, using your selected ammunition, on whatever day you check, in whatever range of weather/environmental conditions exist at that moment in time?

Dunno. Can't predict such things.

All I know is that I tend to prefer using standard pressure loads, myself, offered by one or another of the major American ammo makers, using a modern hollowpoint of 230gr weight.

The rest is up to me.

Sure, I've used +P (as both approved/purchased & issued loads), and I still have a supply of it in a couple of brands/bullet weights, but I prefer to keep it aside for my larger .45's, for the most part.

I've also used 185gr & 200gr loads, going back for years. As long as they feed & optimally function in my .45's, in my hands, when the guns are being run fast & hard (under demanding conditions of different courses-of-fire), I'll not lose any sleep if I have to use them.

I just prefer the 230gr loads, given my druthers.

My preference for 230gr loads was one of the reasons I didn't add any .45GAP guns to my working collection. (That, and the fact that my hands fit the standard size .45 ACP guns just fine.) Winchester managed to put a 230gr bullet into their GAP offerings, but it wasn't easy to find at any of the stores within a couple of the counties where I live & worked. I don't care to use a cartridge which can't be easily found among gun & sporting goods stores. Call me old-fashioned, if you will.

I liked the idea of a subcompact .45 similar in overall size to my G26's/27 ... but I already enough compact/subcompact .45's, and I'm decently invested in small .40's, too.

The shooter-variable in using .45 +P needs to be considered, too. I can't remember if I already mentioned it in this thread topic, but I still remember being called to assist a small agency with their familiarization and qualification using their brand new G30's several years ago. Their ammunition of choice? A well known brand of 200gr +P hollowpoint.

More than half a dozen of their shooters had repeated feeding & functioning issues with the guns that day, all of whom were expressing some level of dissatisfaction with the felt recoil of the 200gr +P load chosen. One of them was even an existing G30 owner (and someone who claimed to be a gun enthusiast). He said he didn't use +P loads in his own G30, and it appeared he wasn't particularly comfortable with the felt recoil of his new issued G30 using the +P loads.

Bottom line? I learned a few months later that their agency had traded their G30's for G23's, and had selected one of the good quality LE-only 180gr loads. I was told they were very pleased with the change. I always wondered if their experience might have been different if they'd been willing to use standard pressure 230gr loads in their G30's, though.

My prioritization of earlier still remains.

More range training/practice time ... less over-analyzing of subtle (real or perceived) nuances of specific ammunition choices.

Good familiarity with the weapon, meaning safe and proper manipulation, as well as maintenance (which can be where some folks seem to get really derailed in their practices ).

Good holster selection and carry method if the gun is lawfully carried as a dedicated defensive weapon. Applicable to anticipated needs and circumstances. Good user understanding and practiced skillset using that carry method & holster selection.

Good quality ammunition ... which in my case means preferably made by one of the major American ammo makers who have acquired a lot of experience in making ammo which meets the Q& performance specifications of LE/Gov users. (Obviously, the ammo selection needs to be legal to possess and use within whatever local laws may exist.)


Then remember, when using smallish .45's it isn't unknown for them to be less tolerant of both shooter & ammunition influences.

Choose wisely.

Training & practice. (The needs of different people in this regard can be ... different.)

Mindset.

Over the years I've increasingly become prone to respond to questions of gun make/model, caliber and specific ammo choices by taking the person asking me such questions ... (especially those wanting to hotly debate or even argue with me about it) ... downrange to the firing line.

I have them run through some demanding drills and/or courses-of-fire, which are unexpected and done cold (they don't get to watch others do them first), and which might stress them a bit.

Then we discuss how things went.

I do this to myself, or have other instructors do it to me, just to try and keep things in perspective.

Worry about first things first, in the real world ... unless it's the internet, of course.
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Old 03-20-2013, 20:55   #62
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230+P HST in my aluminum frame, 3" 1911

Sorry its likely never going to get fed anything different for SD.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:14   #63
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230+P HST in my aluminum frame, 3" 1911

Sorry its likely never going to get fed anything different for SD.
It must be a serious undertaking - mugging - with all of these .45 carriers out there . . . .
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:12   #64
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Also just to note, a 230gr FMJ at 750-850fps was the load that made a 45ACP famous as a man stopper. As long as the gun shoots straight and every time you press the trigger that slug will do the rest.
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Old 03-23-2013, 13:59   #65
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Excellent information here. My company mandates the 9mm, so that is what I have used for years.
Recently I bought a Springfield XDs .45acp. I love this little pistol.
With all that said, I have greatly enjoyed this thread.

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Old 03-24-2013, 11:49   #66
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BTW, who drove off in the video, the shooter?
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:50   #67
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BTW, who drove off in the video, the shooter?
Yes, to escape the 2 men assaulting him. He called the police from the road and returned shortly thereafter. He was never charged with a crime, obviously. And since the assault began while he was half in his car, the scumbag who was shot can never sue him in civil court because of Ohio castle laws.

There is a huge thread over at Ohio concealed carry forums (can't remember the exact website) that the shooter started and comments on. It think it was called "Had to shoot someone today" or something like that.

His first round was a Corbon Pow'r Ball 165gr +P, and the subsequent rounds in his magazine were 230gr FMJ, probably because he couldn't afford much expensive hollow point ammo. Both shots were to the lower side of the stomach, which is why the scumbag lived. A little higher, and he would have been a dead duck. There were even pictures of the wounds that the perpetrator posted to his Facebook page. The Pow'r Ball looked nasty. The FMJ was just a small, pucker hole wound, but did pass completely through, exiting his lower back.

That video shows only clips from the news. The entire one is out there. Two guys start beating the hell out of this guy for no reason, and continue to beat him as he is struggling to retrieve the G36 from his center console. He does, shoots the first guy twice in the stomach, and the other flees (as criminals often do when shots are fired). Almost every time when shots are fired, the criminals flee, because they are scared, weak people. It is a common misconception that when you fire, the criminals come after you even more vigorously. This might be true in a very small percentage of times, but probably 99% of the time, even with large groups, when shots are fired, they scatter like mice, even if they have guns themselves.

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Old 03-24-2013, 16:16   #68
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Yes, to escape the 2 men assaulting him. He called the police from the road and returned shortly thereafter. He was never charged with a crime, obviously. And since the assault began while he was half in his car, the scumbag who was shot can never sue him in civil court because of Ohio castle laws.

There is a huge thread over at Ohio concealed carry forums (can't remember the exact website) that the shooter started and comments on. It think it was called "Had to shoot someone today" or something like that.

His first round was a Corbon Pow'r Ball 165gr +P, and the subsequent rounds in his magazine were 230gr FMJ, probably because he couldn't afford much expensive hollow point ammo. Both shots were to the lower side of the stomach, which is why the scumbag lived. A little higher, and he would have been a dead duck. There were even pictures of the wounds that the perpetrator posted to his Facebook page. The Pow'r Ball looked nasty. The FMJ was just a small, pucker hole wound, but did pass completely through, exiting his lower back.

That video shows only clips from the news. The entire one is out there. Two guys start beating the hell out of this guy for no reason, and continue to beat him as he is struggling to retrieve the G36 from his center console. He does, shoots the first guy twice in the stomach, and the other flees (as criminals often do when shots are fired). Almost every time when shots are fired, the criminals flee, because they are scared, weak people. It is a common misconception that when you fire, the criminals come after you even more vigorously. This might be true in a very small percentage of times, but probably 99% of the time, even with large groups, when shots are fired, they scatter like mice, even if they have guns themselves.
Go G36 go!!!
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