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Old 01-25-2013, 09:39   #41
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Highlight from here down to the bottom to see the spoiler:





I knew there was a sublimina here but could not figure hout how to use the spell checker with it. wierd.


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Old 01-25-2013, 10:38   #42
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That spoiler is factually inaccurate
Just change Satan to a demon, and I don't see any errors.

A demon (Jason Lee) wants to exploit a loophole in God's (Alanis Morissette) plan that will allow him re-entry to Heaven, but if he's successful in getting back in, that will prove God fallible and erase the Universe. The demon recruits a couple of exiled angels (Ben Affleck, Matt Damon) to help him and traps God in the body of a skee-baller to keep her from interfering, but God impregnates an abortion clinic worker who, with the help of Rufus the forgotten black angel, (Chris Rock) saves humanity.

Oh, don't forget about the stripper muse Selma Hayek
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

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Old 01-25-2013, 10:42   #43
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Here is your proof right here...
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:45   #44
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Perhaps, almost definitely, or not... Impossible to be certain, wouldn't you agree?
I would tend to say that I am 99.999999999999999999999% POSITIVE that I'm not sure.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:58   #45
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That spoiler is factually inaccurate
This is a good opportunity to demonstrate my ability to admit mistakes; you're right, that spoiler contained an error.

Oh, man, it's good to get that off my chest.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:08   #46
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Also, I think it was Hans Gruber who did that for Bethany, not Alanis Morissette.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:17   #47
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Just change Satan to a demon, and I don't see any errors.
There's also an error regarding who is trying to get back in, at least in that first initial sentence (the one where Satan would get changed)

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This is a good opportunity to demonstrate my ability to admit mistakes; you're right, that spoiler contained an error.

Oh, man, it's good to get that off my chest.
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Old 01-25-2013, 15:12   #48
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Just change Satan to a demon, and I don't see any errors.

A demon (Jason Lee) wants to exploit a loophole in God's (Alanis Morissette) plan that will allow him re-entry to Heaven, but if he's successful in getting back in, that will prove God fallible and erase the Universe. The demon recruits a couple of exiled angels (Ben Affleck, Matt Damon) to help him and traps God in the body of a skee-baller to keep her from interfering, but God impregnates an abortion clinic worker who, with the help of Rufus the forgotten black angel, (Chris Rock) saves humanity.

Oh, don't forget about the stripper muse Selma Hayek
Also,

Rufus was a disciple, not an angel.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:16   #49
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This corrects all inaccuracies I observed, but is quite likely still off in some detail :

A demon (Jason Lee) wants to exploit a loophole in God's (Alanis Morissette) plan that will allow two exiled angels (Ben Affleck, Matt Damon) re-entry into Heaven. If the demon is successful, God will be proven to be fallible and the universe will cease to exist. The demon traps God in the body of a skee-baller to keep her from interfering, but Metatron, the voice of God (Alan Rickman) recruits a sterile abortion clinic worker named Bethany Sloane (Linda Fiorentino). Bethany saves all of existence with the help of the 13th Apostle (Chris Rock), a stripper Muse (Selma Hayek), Jay (Jason Mewes) and Silent Bob (Kevin Smith). God then simultaneously cures and impregnates Bethany.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:39   #50
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I'm now agnostic regarding whether I've even seen this movie.

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Old 01-25-2013, 16:48   #51
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I thought religion was dreamed up by a slick entrepreneur who wanted to control people.
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Old 01-25-2013, 19:01   #52
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Possible is a very weak word. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is possible because no one can 100% conclusively prove that one doesn't exist. But when you take a group of scriptures that are so flawed, so full of errors and contradictions, and has had mostly all of its claims about the origins of Man, the Earth, and the Universe proven not just inaccurate but grossly untrue... How PROBABLE do you think that deity really is?
If possible is weak, then you have all the knowledge you need, and don't need to reconsider anything.

That is a strong minded position, not one that I would advise on many subjects though.

OK, the FSM is possible. Is it possible that the deity known as the FSM is characterized incorrectly in multiple ways, but still exists? Considering the known origins, the second is much more possible. But it being possible isn't going to make me go to Olive Garden every Thursday to worship it. Now, if you want to, you can with my blessings. It does me no harm, even if I have to wait an extra 10 minutes to get a table. (for full disclosure, when we want good pasta, we make it from scratch at home, haven't been to OG in a couple years).

As there are numerous deities, and groups of deities described by man, monotheism, polytheism, interested, disinterested, demanding, forgiving, etc etc etc.

The more descriptions of a deity that exist, the less any one of them is likely to be the real deity. It's a crowd effect increasing the denominator. Considering that if life was created by an intelligent design, and as evidenced by the fossil record, life began as simple creatures that over time adapted and differentiated into more complex life, that it took A LONG TIME between the moment life was created, and someone started writing stuff down.

I find it as completely certain as possible that not every origin story is correct, as many of them are contradictory.

With current knowledge, there was moment when the first cell on earth was alive. How that happened is a mystery. Just my observation, but a lot of people feel a strong need to know how or why that happened, and pick a story they are comfortable with. In the USA, it's perfectly allowed to believe what you want to believe. On GTRI, it seems not picking a team is the biggest sinner? That is a very interesting thing to explore for me.

See ya around.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:01   #53
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If possible is weak, then you have all the knowledge you need, and don't need to reconsider anything.

That is a strong minded position, not one that I would advise on many subjects though.
On religion and deities it's somewhat justified however, considering the vast amount of information we have 1. Disproving religious mythology and 2. The continuing trend in scientific discovery that things generally attributed to a deity happened on their own and without the need for or influence of a deity.

When you keep looking around and keep finding "Nope... no God here either." Possible starts to become a term one can dismiss more easily. But given the vast amount of what we've learned in our time here, what's probable becomes more relevant when talking about a deity.

Quote:
OK, the FSM is possible.
This is exactly why possible is a weak term. You and I both know there is no such thing. We know it was invented by man in our current age.

Wiki: "The "Flying Spaghetti Monster" was first described in a satirical open letter written by Bobby Henderson in 2005 to protest the Kansas State Board of Education decision to permit teaching intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in public school science classes"

And I think we all saw the YT video of the idiot LA Senator asking if the public school could prove bacteria can evolve into people.

So you see where just because something is possible is a very weak stance given we have knowledge to conclude if something is probable or likely. Me sprouting wings is possible... but seriously unlikely and improbable given that no human has ever been known to do so.

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Is it possible that the deity known as the FSM is characterized incorrectly in multiple ways, but still exists? Considering the known origins, the second is much more possible.
But it's not. We both know the FSM is an absolute fabrication and work of fiction. It was created with the single purpose of illustrating the absurdity of the argument that God is possible even though all religious texts have found to be false in most of their major claims on creation and origins. And the illustration that most religions have certain stories that seem similar so that may speak to something actually being there that's been lost is equally absurd. The reason many seem to connect in some way is because most of them are borrowed, and swapped, and stolen from previous cultures and twisted to suit the current culture. Often times as an insult to the other culture, turning their heroic deity into a demon or cursed character and then becoming dogma over centuries of repeated oral tradition. These original myths and legends come from a time when man was highly superstitious and extremely uneducated about nature and the world. Because they later were expanded upon and entangled with poetry and wise HUMAN philosophy makes the claim of the deity no more possible.

Quote:
But it being possible isn't going to make me go to Olive Garden every Thursday to worship it. Now, if you want to, you can with my blessings. It does me no harm, even if I have to wait an extra 10 minutes to get a table.
Fine, but what if we FSM believers are the majority in this nation and the FSM says guns are evil. And so we as a majority push to ban all guns because they are wicked and wrong and we don't care if you like them... our God says they are immoral and therefore no one should be allowed to own them. This is a Flying Spaghetti Monster Nation... and it was founded on the morals and principles set forth by our lord our God. All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster... Now give up your guns. And the ONLY thing that saved you was the founding fathers made it clear that government shouldn't be involved in religion. Yet we FSM believers still persist. We still try at every turn to legislate our beliefs to make you live by our ethics, the ethics this nation was founded upon.

You can act like this isn't happening in our nation but it is. And you've made the point that it's far worse in other places you've traveled to. So what? If we don't resist it at its flash point... who's to say it won't become worse with time? That is usually how these things work. You give an inch... they take a foot.


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The more descriptions of a deity that exist, the less any one of them is likely to be the real deity. It's a crowd effect increasing the denominator. Considering that if life was created by an intelligent design, and as evidenced by the fossil record, life began as simple creatures that over time adapted and differentiated into more complex life, that it took A LONG TIME between the moment life was created, and someone started writing stuff down.
As I have said, it might seem like there was an actual deity at one point and then all these stories branched out from that. But that's because most of the mythologies we have are based on singular mythologies that go back to when man was highly uneducated and superstitious. Also keep in mind Monotheism is a relatively new concept. If we are going to assume ancient mythology lends credence to the possibility that there is a deity... it's more than likely several of them because original mythologies invented by men contained many gods with some sort of command structure.

But to assume that creationism is just as possible is shoe horning what we know with archaic myths and legends.


Quote:
With current knowledge, there was moment when the first cell on earth was alive. How that happened is a mystery. Just my observation, but a lot of people feel a strong need to know how or why that happened, and pick a story they are comfortable with.
I'm comfortable not knowing. But I am curious to know. My life won't be effected in anyway not knowing how life began on this planet. But it is a roadblock to knowledge to attempt to merge what people believe with what we know. Things like this have a habit of becoming accepted fact after a few generations of being perpetuated. People are free to believe what they wish if it makes them happy. But we cannot allow knowledge and fact to become entangled with myth and legend. We owe that to future generations.


Quote:
In the USA, it's perfectly allowed to believe what you want to believe. On GTRI, it seems not picking a team is the biggest sinner? That is a very interesting thing to explore for me.
You aren't seeing the battle lines clearly. Most non-believers don't care what other people believe. The problem is that believers want to insist that their mythology be given equal treatment in comparison to actual knowledge. That it be legislated. That it be spread as far and wide as is possible as that is what is commanded by God. We are fighting to protect knowledge from superstition. To keep it from being muddied by the ignorant and fearful. It's happened before and it can happen again. There were obvious times in human history when man had reached greatness only to fall back into the mud. And often this has been at the hand of religion. We are trying to keep out of mud. And the religious continue to try and drag us back into it because it's warm and safe feeling. And allowing mythology to be blended with science (Creationism) is just keeping one leg in the mud just so we can get pulled back in. I'd be happy to leave the believers to wallow in their mud. But they mean to pull us all in with them. They don't want to know what's beyond if it doesn't agree with what makes them feel safe and warm.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:50   #54
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There are several issues there. First, when you look at something, and you are being objective, you see what you see. If you try to use not
Seeing something is evidence of another conclusive position, that's shaky ground on the beginnings of life issue.

The FSM is an admittedly fictional character, we both now that. The point is, any specific potential deity probably wasn't described well by people a few thousand years ago, especially if a book has many authors.

As far as the political fears, there are enough checks and balances in our system, and enough people with different opinions to just not be afraid?? I haven't seen any serious consideration in public schools wanting to teach only the Adam and Eve version of the beginning. Fighting that isn't hard at all. Right now it seems fairly well balanced. I don't feel nearly as besieged as you do on this.

We have not achieved greatness. We have cooler toys, more access to information, easier travel. As a species, we really don't know a lot on the cosmic scale, have never been at peace, and have traveled a tiny amount, and have yet to make even an interstellar phone call with another sentient species. It's not bad though.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:30   #55
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:04   #56
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There are several issues there. First, when you look at something, and you are being objective, you see what you see. If you try to use not
Seeing something is evidence of another conclusive position, that's shaky ground on the beginnings of life issue.
No one is doing that though. I cannot say with 100% certainty that there is no God of any kind. What I am saying is that the accounts of such keep coming up wrong. So there is little reason to assume they address anything with any accuracy. Superman has been mentioned in countless writings... doesn't make the likelihood of his existence any greater. I do not see the difference between Superman and God. They are both likely stories of superhuman beings invented by man. That is the most probable conclusion. Again we come back to the FSM. We can't use never having seen it as proof that it doesn't exist. But given the faulty ground upon which the legend is built what is the actual likelihood it exists.

Quote:
The FSM is an admittedly fictional character, we both now that. The point is, any specific potential deity probably wasn't described well by people a few thousand years ago, especially if a book has many authors.
That is assuming a deity existed at all. And there simply isn't anything to suggest such a being ever existed except stories. And like Superman... the likelihood of them just being stories is probable. Especially given how simple man was at the time these sorts of tales began floating around. Keep in mind that LOOOONG before man was intelligent enough to actually write these things down... they had been stories passed down vial oral tradition. More than likely morphing from worshiping the sun to turning the tales into elaborate characters. If we want to give these tales equal weight as what we actually know about our origins, Earth, and Universe then we need to give equal weight to these "Gods" being Aliens as well. There's just as much evidence for Advanced Aliens as there is for Deities. And Aliens in space craft would have seemed like God's on Chariots to early man. But we can't allow any of that conjecture to poison our actual knowledge.

Quote:
As far as the political fears, there are enough checks and balances in our system, and enough people with different opinions to just not be afraid?? I haven't seen any serious consideration in public schools wanting to teach only the Adam and Eve version of the beginning. Fighting that isn't hard at all. Right now it seems fairly well balanced. I don't feel nearly as besieged as you do on this.
Depends on where you live I guess. My chick's little girl is exposed to christianity in school on a regular basis. As we were when growing up in this area. The teachers around here do not care about the laws because they, their administrators, and even the School board members are all devout southern christians and anyone that doesn't believe is a heathen. She has actual syllabi from school with bible quotes on it and messages like "Remember children... God doesn't make junk." We've contacted the school and all we get is a promise to look into it or we get dismissed saying they have more important things to worry about. They send lesson plans via email with bible quotes. Science teachers have told her to check her bible if she really wants to know where we come from. So we have been keeping records of all of this and have recorded our conversations with the teachers and admins and are preparing to present it to the ACLU.
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Old 01-26-2013, 17:28   #57
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I'm now agnostic regarding whether I've even seen this movie.
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Old 01-26-2013, 17:31   #58
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Superman has been spotted along several beaches flying recently. Check yahoo for the fox news story. It's actually a model plane made to look like superman. Looked cool.

I know what superman looks like. And, ultimately, whether or not superman existed doesn't have much to do with how we got here, and whether or not there is a why. We are here, it all started somehow. Just my own opinion is to not worry about what other people believe. As previously noted, there's plenty of diversity out there to act as a check and balance.

Equal weight about the origin of life? Maybe it was made, maybe it wasn't. I think some people should keep looking into the origins, but in large part not knowing for sure has not really stopped us from getting where we are today. I don't see any real threat of atheism or any other religion stamping out the others. There are those that would like to try, and the violent ones are going to be interesting. If you want to have the largest impact on humanity, and you want to dissuade a single group that is poised to cause a lot of death and misery, I'd aim at the twelvers that are in charge of Iran. But that's just an educated guess. Combating Christians, Jews, Bhuddists, Sikhs, Muslims and Hindu's in the United States is small potatoes in comparison.

As far as your lady friend's child goes, if something is over the line, report it. There are plenty of atheist legal organizations that will parachute into the parking lot if a line is crossed. Now, if it's something simple, like saying the pledge, just tell her to put her lips together when the "under god" part happens if she wants to.

I went to high school in the mid-80's in suburban Ohio, about 20 miles outside of Dayton (another good reason to live in Texas). I'd say the message I got in HS was that there was no god, and only stupid people believed in a god. After a little growing up and learning just how important supporting our Constitution meant, in that it is a contract authorizing a certain amount of governance by a few, from the many, in the interests of all, I realized I do not have a right to tell someone what to believe about an unknown. The first amendment is a well crafted rule. I like it just the way it is.

My kids haven't had any of those problems in Texas. Of course, there are a few surprises. Did you know that there is a Texas pledge of allegiance that is said in schools after the National pledge of allegiance. Watch any truck commercial in Texas, and they don't claim it is the best truck in the USA, they claim it is the best truck in Texas, which is evidently a higher standard. I've had them come home and tell me about quite a few of the "goody-goody self righteous christian" girls on their team that got pregnant. Now my kids might not be average. I started picking on them and challenging them at an early age. I fully allowed them to argue back, and there have been moments when I regretted that, but I raised them to be strong. Ms. Cavalry Doc has complained quite vigorously about not being able to win any argument with our older daughter, cause she has a wickedly attuned debating skill, better than mine by far. If she was a member here, she'd probably be able to convert you to Hinduism if she wanted to. I also educated them. If you pick any sexually transmitted disease out there, they can name, from rote memory, the etiology, how it is contracted, whether it is viral or bacterial, what lesions appear (if any), what secondary changes occur if left untreated, and the odds of asymptomatic infection. That and that I would see about 4 to 5 STD's a week when I was in primary care. Knowledge is power.

They have been given free reign on what to believe on religious stuff.


I guess what I am trying to say, is instill as much self esteem as possible into the child. Don't give trophies for just participating, or be too harsh when they make mistakes. Both of those tactics are moronic.

Let them talk back to you, when appropriate, and to question everything, and come to their own conclusions. There are some tactical things where they know to do exactly as told immediately. Commands such as "run!", means to get out from in between me and the person I am facing, and move away as quickly as possible while putting hard objects in between us. The oldest has her carry license, and we have discussed when to use it and not to use it. What it will do, and won't do. She's in Nursing school now, so the anatomy details make a lot more sense to her. Neither of the kids has any problem at all with marksmanship.

Exposure is going to happen, that's not a problem, indoctrination should not happen. If that is happening to your lady friend's child, you should do what you have to do to change that.
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Old 01-26-2013, 17:37   #59
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Quote:
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I thought religion was dreamed up by a slick entrepreneur who wanted to control people.
Quote:
Estimated number of victims

In the introduction, editor Stéphane Courtois states that "...Communist regimes... turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government". He claims that a death toll totals 94 million. The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:

65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America (mainly Cuba)
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."
Every religion is a problem. Atheism included.
The seeking of power and control seem to be hardwired into humans.
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Old 01-26-2013, 17:41   #60
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The whole ''fantastic things as evidence of God'' thing reminds me of a show I saw with some evangelist enthusiastically explaining to a totally enamored Kirk Cameron how the banana removed any doubt as to God's design. He's going on and on about how it fits perfectly in the human hand, how it's shaped to fit the human mouth, the incredibly convient easy-open packaging etc. etc.

The whole time I'm thinking to myself ''yeah, well we eat pineapples and cows too''.
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