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Old 01-25-2013, 15:48   #51
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I thought religion was dreamed up by a slick entrepreneur who wanted to control people.
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Old 01-25-2013, 18:01   #52
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Possible is a very weak word. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is possible because no one can 100% conclusively prove that one doesn't exist. But when you take a group of scriptures that are so flawed, so full of errors and contradictions, and has had mostly all of its claims about the origins of Man, the Earth, and the Universe proven not just inaccurate but grossly untrue... How PROBABLE do you think that deity really is?
If possible is weak, then you have all the knowledge you need, and don't need to reconsider anything.

That is a strong minded position, not one that I would advise on many subjects though.

OK, the FSM is possible. Is it possible that the deity known as the FSM is characterized incorrectly in multiple ways, but still exists? Considering the known origins, the second is much more possible. But it being possible isn't going to make me go to Olive Garden every Thursday to worship it. Now, if you want to, you can with my blessings. It does me no harm, even if I have to wait an extra 10 minutes to get a table. (for full disclosure, when we want good pasta, we make it from scratch at home, haven't been to OG in a couple years).

As there are numerous deities, and groups of deities described by man, monotheism, polytheism, interested, disinterested, demanding, forgiving, etc etc etc.

The more descriptions of a deity that exist, the less any one of them is likely to be the real deity. It's a crowd effect increasing the denominator. Considering that if life was created by an intelligent design, and as evidenced by the fossil record, life began as simple creatures that over time adapted and differentiated into more complex life, that it took A LONG TIME between the moment life was created, and someone started writing stuff down.

I find it as completely certain as possible that not every origin story is correct, as many of them are contradictory.

With current knowledge, there was moment when the first cell on earth was alive. How that happened is a mystery. Just my observation, but a lot of people feel a strong need to know how or why that happened, and pick a story they are comfortable with. In the USA, it's perfectly allowed to believe what you want to believe. On GTRI, it seems not picking a team is the biggest sinner? That is a very interesting thing to explore for me.

See ya around.
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Old 01-26-2013, 00:01   #53
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If possible is weak, then you have all the knowledge you need, and don't need to reconsider anything.

That is a strong minded position, not one that I would advise on many subjects though.
On religion and deities it's somewhat justified however, considering the vast amount of information we have 1. Disproving religious mythology and 2. The continuing trend in scientific discovery that things generally attributed to a deity happened on their own and without the need for or influence of a deity.

When you keep looking around and keep finding "Nope... no God here either." Possible starts to become a term one can dismiss more easily. But given the vast amount of what we've learned in our time here, what's probable becomes more relevant when talking about a deity.

Quote:
OK, the FSM is possible.
This is exactly why possible is a weak term. You and I both know there is no such thing. We know it was invented by man in our current age.

Wiki: "The "Flying Spaghetti Monster" was first described in a satirical open letter written by Bobby Henderson in 2005 to protest the Kansas State Board of Education decision to permit teaching intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in public school science classes"

And I think we all saw the YT video of the idiot LA Senator asking if the public school could prove bacteria can evolve into people.

So you see where just because something is possible is a very weak stance given we have knowledge to conclude if something is probable or likely. Me sprouting wings is possible... but seriously unlikely and improbable given that no human has ever been known to do so.

Quote:
Is it possible that the deity known as the FSM is characterized incorrectly in multiple ways, but still exists? Considering the known origins, the second is much more possible.
But it's not. We both know the FSM is an absolute fabrication and work of fiction. It was created with the single purpose of illustrating the absurdity of the argument that God is possible even though all religious texts have found to be false in most of their major claims on creation and origins. And the illustration that most religions have certain stories that seem similar so that may speak to something actually being there that's been lost is equally absurd. The reason many seem to connect in some way is because most of them are borrowed, and swapped, and stolen from previous cultures and twisted to suit the current culture. Often times as an insult to the other culture, turning their heroic deity into a demon or cursed character and then becoming dogma over centuries of repeated oral tradition. These original myths and legends come from a time when man was highly superstitious and extremely uneducated about nature and the world. Because they later were expanded upon and entangled with poetry and wise HUMAN philosophy makes the claim of the deity no more possible.

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But it being possible isn't going to make me go to Olive Garden every Thursday to worship it. Now, if you want to, you can with my blessings. It does me no harm, even if I have to wait an extra 10 minutes to get a table.
Fine, but what if we FSM believers are the majority in this nation and the FSM says guns are evil. And so we as a majority push to ban all guns because they are wicked and wrong and we don't care if you like them... our God says they are immoral and therefore no one should be allowed to own them. This is a Flying Spaghetti Monster Nation... and it was founded on the morals and principles set forth by our lord our God. All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster... Now give up your guns. And the ONLY thing that saved you was the founding fathers made it clear that government shouldn't be involved in religion. Yet we FSM believers still persist. We still try at every turn to legislate our beliefs to make you live by our ethics, the ethics this nation was founded upon.

You can act like this isn't happening in our nation but it is. And you've made the point that it's far worse in other places you've traveled to. So what? If we don't resist it at its flash point... who's to say it won't become worse with time? That is usually how these things work. You give an inch... they take a foot.


Quote:
The more descriptions of a deity that exist, the less any one of them is likely to be the real deity. It's a crowd effect increasing the denominator. Considering that if life was created by an intelligent design, and as evidenced by the fossil record, life began as simple creatures that over time adapted and differentiated into more complex life, that it took A LONG TIME between the moment life was created, and someone started writing stuff down.
As I have said, it might seem like there was an actual deity at one point and then all these stories branched out from that. But that's because most of the mythologies we have are based on singular mythologies that go back to when man was highly uneducated and superstitious. Also keep in mind Monotheism is a relatively new concept. If we are going to assume ancient mythology lends credence to the possibility that there is a deity... it's more than likely several of them because original mythologies invented by men contained many gods with some sort of command structure.

But to assume that creationism is just as possible is shoe horning what we know with archaic myths and legends.


Quote:
With current knowledge, there was moment when the first cell on earth was alive. How that happened is a mystery. Just my observation, but a lot of people feel a strong need to know how or why that happened, and pick a story they are comfortable with.
I'm comfortable not knowing. But I am curious to know. My life won't be effected in anyway not knowing how life began on this planet. But it is a roadblock to knowledge to attempt to merge what people believe with what we know. Things like this have a habit of becoming accepted fact after a few generations of being perpetuated. People are free to believe what they wish if it makes them happy. But we cannot allow knowledge and fact to become entangled with myth and legend. We owe that to future generations.


Quote:
In the USA, it's perfectly allowed to believe what you want to believe. On GTRI, it seems not picking a team is the biggest sinner? That is a very interesting thing to explore for me.
You aren't seeing the battle lines clearly. Most non-believers don't care what other people believe. The problem is that believers want to insist that their mythology be given equal treatment in comparison to actual knowledge. That it be legislated. That it be spread as far and wide as is possible as that is what is commanded by God. We are fighting to protect knowledge from superstition. To keep it from being muddied by the ignorant and fearful. It's happened before and it can happen again. There were obvious times in human history when man had reached greatness only to fall back into the mud. And often this has been at the hand of religion. We are trying to keep out of mud. And the religious continue to try and drag us back into it because it's warm and safe feeling. And allowing mythology to be blended with science (Creationism) is just keeping one leg in the mud just so we can get pulled back in. I'd be happy to leave the believers to wallow in their mud. But they mean to pull us all in with them. They don't want to know what's beyond if it doesn't agree with what makes them feel safe and warm.
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Old 01-26-2013, 07:50   #54
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There are several issues there. First, when you look at something, and you are being objective, you see what you see. If you try to use not
Seeing something is evidence of another conclusive position, that's shaky ground on the beginnings of life issue.

The FSM is an admittedly fictional character, we both now that. The point is, any specific potential deity probably wasn't described well by people a few thousand years ago, especially if a book has many authors.

As far as the political fears, there are enough checks and balances in our system, and enough people with different opinions to just not be afraid?? I haven't seen any serious consideration in public schools wanting to teach only the Adam and Eve version of the beginning. Fighting that isn't hard at all. Right now it seems fairly well balanced. I don't feel nearly as besieged as you do on this.

We have not achieved greatness. We have cooler toys, more access to information, easier travel. As a species, we really don't know a lot on the cosmic scale, have never been at peace, and have traveled a tiny amount, and have yet to make even an interstellar phone call with another sentient species. It's not bad though.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:30   #55
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Old 01-26-2013, 15:04   #56
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
There are several issues there. First, when you look at something, and you are being objective, you see what you see. If you try to use not
Seeing something is evidence of another conclusive position, that's shaky ground on the beginnings of life issue.
No one is doing that though. I cannot say with 100% certainty that there is no God of any kind. What I am saying is that the accounts of such keep coming up wrong. So there is little reason to assume they address anything with any accuracy. Superman has been mentioned in countless writings... doesn't make the likelihood of his existence any greater. I do not see the difference between Superman and God. They are both likely stories of superhuman beings invented by man. That is the most probable conclusion. Again we come back to the FSM. We can't use never having seen it as proof that it doesn't exist. But given the faulty ground upon which the legend is built what is the actual likelihood it exists.

Quote:
The FSM is an admittedly fictional character, we both now that. The point is, any specific potential deity probably wasn't described well by people a few thousand years ago, especially if a book has many authors.
That is assuming a deity existed at all. And there simply isn't anything to suggest such a being ever existed except stories. And like Superman... the likelihood of them just being stories is probable. Especially given how simple man was at the time these sorts of tales began floating around. Keep in mind that LOOOONG before man was intelligent enough to actually write these things down... they had been stories passed down vial oral tradition. More than likely morphing from worshiping the sun to turning the tales into elaborate characters. If we want to give these tales equal weight as what we actually know about our origins, Earth, and Universe then we need to give equal weight to these "Gods" being Aliens as well. There's just as much evidence for Advanced Aliens as there is for Deities. And Aliens in space craft would have seemed like God's on Chariots to early man. But we can't allow any of that conjecture to poison our actual knowledge.

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As far as the political fears, there are enough checks and balances in our system, and enough people with different opinions to just not be afraid?? I haven't seen any serious consideration in public schools wanting to teach only the Adam and Eve version of the beginning. Fighting that isn't hard at all. Right now it seems fairly well balanced. I don't feel nearly as besieged as you do on this.
Depends on where you live I guess. My chick's little girl is exposed to christianity in school on a regular basis. As we were when growing up in this area. The teachers around here do not care about the laws because they, their administrators, and even the School board members are all devout southern christians and anyone that doesn't believe is a heathen. She has actual syllabi from school with bible quotes on it and messages like "Remember children... God doesn't make junk." We've contacted the school and all we get is a promise to look into it or we get dismissed saying they have more important things to worry about. They send lesson plans via email with bible quotes. Science teachers have told her to check her bible if she really wants to know where we come from. So we have been keeping records of all of this and have recorded our conversations with the teachers and admins and are preparing to present it to the ACLU.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:28   #57
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I'm now agnostic regarding whether I've even seen this movie.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:31   #58
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Superman has been spotted along several beaches flying recently. Check yahoo for the fox news story. It's actually a model plane made to look like superman. Looked cool.

I know what superman looks like. And, ultimately, whether or not superman existed doesn't have much to do with how we got here, and whether or not there is a why. We are here, it all started somehow. Just my own opinion is to not worry about what other people believe. As previously noted, there's plenty of diversity out there to act as a check and balance.

Equal weight about the origin of life? Maybe it was made, maybe it wasn't. I think some people should keep looking into the origins, but in large part not knowing for sure has not really stopped us from getting where we are today. I don't see any real threat of atheism or any other religion stamping out the others. There are those that would like to try, and the violent ones are going to be interesting. If you want to have the largest impact on humanity, and you want to dissuade a single group that is poised to cause a lot of death and misery, I'd aim at the twelvers that are in charge of Iran. But that's just an educated guess. Combating Christians, Jews, Bhuddists, Sikhs, Muslims and Hindu's in the United States is small potatoes in comparison.

As far as your lady friend's child goes, if something is over the line, report it. There are plenty of atheist legal organizations that will parachute into the parking lot if a line is crossed. Now, if it's something simple, like saying the pledge, just tell her to put her lips together when the "under god" part happens if she wants to.

I went to high school in the mid-80's in suburban Ohio, about 20 miles outside of Dayton (another good reason to live in Texas). I'd say the message I got in HS was that there was no god, and only stupid people believed in a god. After a little growing up and learning just how important supporting our Constitution meant, in that it is a contract authorizing a certain amount of governance by a few, from the many, in the interests of all, I realized I do not have a right to tell someone what to believe about an unknown. The first amendment is a well crafted rule. I like it just the way it is.

My kids haven't had any of those problems in Texas. Of course, there are a few surprises. Did you know that there is a Texas pledge of allegiance that is said in schools after the National pledge of allegiance. Watch any truck commercial in Texas, and they don't claim it is the best truck in the USA, they claim it is the best truck in Texas, which is evidently a higher standard. I've had them come home and tell me about quite a few of the "goody-goody self righteous christian" girls on their team that got pregnant. Now my kids might not be average. I started picking on them and challenging them at an early age. I fully allowed them to argue back, and there have been moments when I regretted that, but I raised them to be strong. Ms. Cavalry Doc has complained quite vigorously about not being able to win any argument with our older daughter, cause she has a wickedly attuned debating skill, better than mine by far. If she was a member here, she'd probably be able to convert you to Hinduism if she wanted to. I also educated them. If you pick any sexually transmitted disease out there, they can name, from rote memory, the etiology, how it is contracted, whether it is viral or bacterial, what lesions appear (if any), what secondary changes occur if left untreated, and the odds of asymptomatic infection. That and that I would see about 4 to 5 STD's a week when I was in primary care. Knowledge is power.

They have been given free reign on what to believe on religious stuff.


I guess what I am trying to say, is instill as much self esteem as possible into the child. Don't give trophies for just participating, or be too harsh when they make mistakes. Both of those tactics are moronic.

Let them talk back to you, when appropriate, and to question everything, and come to their own conclusions. There are some tactical things where they know to do exactly as told immediately. Commands such as "run!", means to get out from in between me and the person I am facing, and move away as quickly as possible while putting hard objects in between us. The oldest has her carry license, and we have discussed when to use it and not to use it. What it will do, and won't do. She's in Nursing school now, so the anatomy details make a lot more sense to her. Neither of the kids has any problem at all with marksmanship.

Exposure is going to happen, that's not a problem, indoctrination should not happen. If that is happening to your lady friend's child, you should do what you have to do to change that.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:37   #59
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I thought religion was dreamed up by a slick entrepreneur who wanted to control people.
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Estimated number of victims

In the introduction, editor Stéphane Courtois states that "...Communist regimes... turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government". He claims that a death toll totals 94 million. The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:

65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America (mainly Cuba)
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."
Every religion is a problem. Atheism included.
The seeking of power and control seem to be hardwired into humans.

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Old 01-26-2013, 16:41   #60
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The whole ''fantastic things as evidence of God'' thing reminds me of a show I saw with some evangelist enthusiastically explaining to a totally enamored Kirk Cameron how the banana removed any doubt as to God's design. He's going on and on about how it fits perfectly in the human hand, how it's shaped to fit the human mouth, the incredibly convient easy-open packaging etc. etc.

The whole time I'm thinking to myself ''yeah, well we eat pineapples and cows too''.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:49   #61
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The whole ''fantastic things as evidence of God'' thing reminds me of a show I saw with some evangelist enthusiastically explaining to a totally enamored Kirk Cameron how the banana removed any doubt as to God's design. He's going on and on about how it fits perfectly in the human hand, how it's shaped to fit the human mouth, the incredibly convient easy-open packaging etc. etc.

The whole time I'm thinking to myself ''yeah, well we eat pineapples and cows too''.
This being true, means that this unattached concept must also be true is a common mistake among a lot of people. BTW, it's not that hard at all to butcher an animal, including fish, mammals, birds and reptiles... Crustaceans Good way to put it. And it works in both directions. The big bang (or big chill now), evolution, quantum mechanics, none of it really tells us if there was or was not a deity.


Many look at scientific evidence, and claim it means what they want it to mean, so that it matches their faith.
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Old 01-26-2013, 19:47   #62
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Depends on where you live I guess. My chick's little girl is exposed to christianity in school on a regular basis. As we were when growing up in this area. The teachers around here do not care about the laws because they, their administrators, and even the School board members are all devout southern christians and anyone that doesn't believe is a heathen. She has actual syllabi from school with bible quotes on it and messages like "Remember children... God doesn't make junk." We've contacted the school and all we get is a promise to look into it or we get dismissed saying they have more important things to worry about. They send lesson plans via email with bible quotes. Science teachers have told her to check her bible if she really wants to know where we come from. So we have been keeping records of all of this and have recorded our conversations with the teachers and admins and are preparing to present it to the ACLU.
I'm not sure telling a child that "God doesn't make junk" would justify the ACLU taking a case; I can't imagine there would be much of a payout for them.
You may have better results by working with one of the various freedom from religion groups - they seem to be more willing to take cases with a less payout possibility. The SPLC is probably a non-starter. Another option would be to retain your own lawyer. If the case is as solid as you indicate, then there shouldn't be a problem finding one to take the case, and you would probably recoup legal fees from the judgement.
If all that fails, there's always the option of home schooling, or getting a position on the school board and changing it from within (which is my preferred method of changing a system).
More immediately, you could do what I do - when my kids come home with materials from school that I find objectionable, we talk about it and look at both sides of the issue. Sometimes they come to my way of thinking, sometimes they don't.



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Old 01-27-2013, 02:12   #63
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Every religion is a problem. Atheism included.
The seeking of power and control seem to be hardwired into humans.
I find that the Bible has excellent insight into the character of fallen man. One of the temptations that Jesus overcame was the seeking of power and control. Satan himself claiming to own this worlds politics and control.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:11   #64
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I'm not sure telling a child that "God doesn't make junk" would justify the ACLU taking a case;
That is not true. If you could see MY junk, you'd say "Yeah, God made that"...

If the wife posted here, she'd back me up on this.

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Old 01-27-2013, 07:51   #65
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That is not true. If you could see MY junk, you'd say "Yeah, God made that"...

If the wife posted here, she'd back me up on this.

Randy
Just like School on a Saturday.......
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:59   #66
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I find that the Bible has excellent insight into the character of fallen man. One of the temptations that Jesus overcame was the seeking of power and control. Satan himself claiming to own this worlds politics and control.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luke 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
Luke 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
That wasn't a swipe at any religion, but at human nature. When people form into identifiable groups, rarely are all considered equal. A hierarchy is established, as is control. The amount of control varies widely but if given long enough, those in power seek more control more often than less. On many occasions family, community, tribal, ethnic, governmental, political, religious, etc etc etc. All of these groupings allow for cooperation. Humans are much more effective when they cooperate. Ex: No one person built a nuclear bomb. Those groups can do a lot of good or a lot of bad depending how it goes. Yes, many religions frown upon power seeking, and it's happened in just about all of them from time to time.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:42   #67
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That wasn't a swipe at any religion, but at human nature. When people form into identifiable groups, rarely are all considered equal. A hierarchy is established, as is control. The amount of control varies widely but if given long enough, those in power seek more control more often than less. On many occasions family, community, tribal, ethnic, governmental, political, religious, etc etc etc. All of these groupings allow for cooperation. Humans are much more effective when they cooperate. Ex: No one person built a nuclear bomb. Those groups can do a lot of good or a lot of bad depending how it goes. Yes, many religions frown upon power seeking, and it's happened in just about all of them from time to time.
I was agreeing with your observation on the control freakishness of man.

My daughter was overheard on the school playground talking with another student about God. She was given a redirect. This is a punishment of a time out to get her thoughts redirected.
This was a blatant abuse of her first amendment rights. Perhaps a teacher may not promote religion, but there is no such restriction on individual students.

We took her out of public school and homeschooled her.
When she later went to a Christian high school she was a straight A student. Homeschooling was good for her.

Glockt36 would probably approve of this persecution and denial of rights. It goes right along with his controlling agenda.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:47   #68
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I know what superman looks like. And, ultimately, whether or not superman existed doesn't have much to do with how we got here, and whether or not there is a why.
What we keep finding over and over is that more than likely God doesn't have much to do with how we got here or why. More than likely the why is because this planet just happened to have the right conditions. Not by purpose but by chance. Statistically speaking there are more than likely other planets out there with the right conditions as well. And it's likely there is life there too. Not because of purpose... but just because the conditions just happen to be right. None of this is 100% certain of course. But it's what the evidence keeps telling us. At every turn we keep NOT seeing the hand of a creator or designer with every layer we peel back. Which causes those who believe in a creator to push that creator further back. If you want to keep stuffing that possible deity into the tiny cracks that we've left to explore that's ok. You can do that. But the probability of such gets smaller and smaller all the time. Even if in the next 10 years we conclusively prove that abiogenesis is possible... there will still be believers that claim that even though it's possible we don't know that that's actually how it happened. Which will be true. But that's just stuffing superman into another crack.


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As previously noted, there's plenty of diversity out there to act as a check and balance.
It often requires loud and obnoxious people like me to maintain that balance.

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Equal weight about the origin of life? Maybe it was made, maybe it wasn't. I think some people should keep looking into the origins, but in large part not knowing for sure has not really stopped us from getting where we are today.
Looking for the answer in a scientific way has brought us to where we are. Religion has given us many things. War, death, art, music, and in some cases hope as well as despair. But it has given us little of our knowledge of man's origins, and that of the Earth and Universe. Most of what separates us from our barbaric ancestors comes from what we've learned and know... not what we believe and hope.

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As far as your lady friend's child goes, if something is over the line, report it.
We're quietly building our case and letting the teachers and admins hang themselves.


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Exposure is going to happen, that's not a problem, indoctrination should not happen. If that is happening to your lady friend's child, you should do what you have to do to change that.
Working on it. Just found out last night that some of her teachers play the Christian radio station softly in the background while they work on lessons in class. That kind of repeated message over and over has a way of sinking into people's heads. It's not much different than having someone preach a sermon quietly in the corner over and over. We're gonna try and get audio tape of that.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:51   #69
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I was agreeing with your observation on the control freakishness of man.

My daughter was overheard on the school playground talking with another student about God. She was given a redirect. This is a punishment of a time out to get her thoughts redirected.
This was a blatant abuse of her first amendment rights. Perhaps a teacher may not promote religion, but there is no such restriction on individual students.

We took her out of public school and homeschooled her.
When she later went to a Christian high school she was a straight A student. Homeschooling was good for her.

Glockt36 would probably approve of this persecution and denial of rights. It goes right along with his controlling agenda.
No not at all. Like mentioned above exposure will happen. I think it's wrong if a student is corrected for expressing themselves. The TEACHERS have no business exposing the kids to anything of a promotional nature in regards to religion. We're looking into private schools as well.
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Old 01-27-2013, 14:14   #70
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What we keep finding over and over is that more than likely God doesn't have much to do with how we got here or why. More than likely the why is because this planet just happened to have the right conditions. Not by purpose but by chance. Statistically speaking there are more than likely other planets out there with the right conditions as well. And it's likely there is life there too. Not because of purpose... but just because the conditions just happen to be right. None of this is 100% certain of course. But it's what the evidence keeps telling us. At every turn we keep NOT seeing the hand of a creator or designer with every layer we peel back. Which causes those who believe in a creator to push that creator further back. If you want to keep stuffing that possible deity into the tiny cracks that we've left to explore that's ok. You can do that. But the probability of such gets smaller and smaller all the time. Even if in the next 10 years we conclusively prove that abiogenesis is possible... there will still be believers that claim that even though it's possible we don't know that that's actually how it happened. Which will be true. But that's just stuffing superman into another crack.




It often requires loud and obnoxious people like me to maintain that balance.



Looking for the answer in a scientific way has brought us to where we are. Religion has given us many things. War, death, art, music, and in some cases hope as well as despair. But it has given us little of our knowledge of man's origins, and that of the Earth and Universe. Most of what separates us from our barbaric ancestors comes from what we've learned and know... not what we believe and hope.



We're quietly building our case and letting the teachers and admins hang themselves.




Working on it. Just found out last night that some of her teachers play the Christian radio station softly in the background while they work on lessons in class. That kind of repeated message over and over has a way of sinking into people's heads. It's not much different than having someone preach a sermon quietly in the corner over and over. We're gonna try and get audio tape of that.
War, death, art etc etc, brought to you by humans, with or without religion, and for plenty of non-religious motives. Fear, greed, hubris, power, resources.

Science has created the most lethal weapons in history, enough to kill everyone on the planet a few times over. If death and destruction are the problem, and the solution is that you want to kill more, science has created a capacity to cause human extinction that religion has never been able to match. Nuclear, biological, chemical, explosives, projectiles, metallurgy, all used by scientists to make man more lethal.

Human nature is the root cause, organization just magnifies it.

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Old 01-27-2013, 14:57   #71
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War, death, art etc etc, brought to you by humans, with or without religion, and for plenty of non-religious motives. Fear, greed, hubris, power, resources.
The point wasn't to place blame. That's why I mentioned some of the positive things. My point was that religion hasn't brought us much in the area knowledge of anything other than religion. Especially when it comes to understanding nature, and our origins and that of the Earth and Universe. It's been a motive for many things but rarely discovery of things outside of its dogma. One basic form of knowledge I will attribute to religion is language. But other than that religion has greatly attempted to stand in the way of discovery for fear of blasphemy.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the likelihood of those ancient tales being true. And the things we continue to learn points to them being more and more likely false.

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Science has created the most lethal weapons in history, enough to kill everyone on the planet a few times over. If death and destruction are the problem, and the solution is that you want to kill more, science has created a capacity to cause human extinction that religion has never been able to match. Nuclear, biological, chemical, explosives, projectiles, metallurgy, all used by scientists to make man more lethal.

Human nature is the root cause, organization just magnifies it.
It's trite but with power comes responsibility. Again, my point wasn't to place blame. I agree it is human nature that uses all manner of things as a weapon. My point was that religion has done little past our infancy to advance our species. And it's claims become more apparently false the further we progress.
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Old 01-27-2013, 19:45   #72
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The whole ''fantastic things as evidence of God'' thing reminds me of a show I saw with some evangelist enthusiastically explaining to a totally enamored Kirk Cameron how the banana removed any doubt as to God's design. He's going on and on about how it fits perfectly in the human hand, how it's shaped to fit the human mouth, the incredibly convient easy-open packaging etc. etc.

The whole time I'm thinking to myself ''yeah, well we eat pineapples and cows too''.
Ray Comfort. He has been shown how we have directed the banana to what it is now, and admitted error, I believe.

Has had a debate with an atheist on youtube, can't remember his name, but it's the guy that did the "why we laugh at creationist" videos.
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Old 01-27-2013, 19:46   #73
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The big bang (or big chill now), evolution, quantum mechanics, none of it really tells us if there was or was not a deity.
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Pretty much everyone agrees with this.
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Old 01-27-2013, 21:21   #74
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Pretty much everyone agrees with this.
I'd agree that most people do, but it sure seems as if some people take the sum total of that which we do know, and claim it is proof that no god exists. At least one guy is very proud of this.

I guess it takes all kinds. It's not a bad thing, just an interesting character trait.
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Old 01-27-2013, 22:01   #75
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I'd agree that most people do, but it sure seems as if some people take the sum total of that which we do know, and claim it is proof that no god exists. At least one guy is very proud of this.

I guess it takes all kinds. It's not a bad thing, just an interesting character trait.
Didn't we just go through this a couple days ago? Can you point to a specific post?
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