[DAIadvisor]

Good basic rifle - just make sure you maintain it and you won't have any issues.

[mjkeat]

During classes and at public ranges I make it a priority to make a mental note of the rifles I see fail. From my experiences I will stay away from DPMS, RGuns, Bushmaster, and Stag. My BCMs and DD have never let me down. There's no reason to take a risk w/ uncertainty in this market.

I have delt w/ hundreds of Colts and have only 1 bad memory. I had to clear a brass over bolt malfunction in a 6940.

Edit: The amount of hatred toward quality, on this forum, is saddening.

"Budget" "cheap" ammunition has never been an issue for any of the quality manufactured ARs I have had experience with. That is except a 12.5" Noveske. Ammunition makes a great scape goat.

[RyanBDawg]

Just don't pay 2,000$ for it!

Every time I hear about one AR constantly malfunctioning over another, I wonder if the rifle was purchased by some newbie gun buyer who wants to look cool and has no idea how to disassemble the rifle, bolt carrier, etc and properly clean and maintain the rifle.

I agree, you probably hear about more malfunctions with Bushmaster, DPMS, etc because more of them have been sold, and many sold to people who have no idea what they are doing with the AR platform.

But in this wacky market, take what you can get as long as you aren't getting silly with the mark up..

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by RyanBDawg

Just don't pay 2,000$ for it!

Every time I hear about one AR constantly malfunctioning over another, I wonder if the rifle was purchased by some newbie gun buyer who wants to look cool and has no idea how to disassemble the rifle, bolt carrier, etc and properly clean and maintain the rifle.

I agree, you probably hear about more malfunctions with Bushmaster, DPMS, etc because more of them have been sold, and many sold to people who have no idea what they are doing with the AR platform.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Highly doubt this has anything to do w/ it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to lubricate a firearm. All it takes for an AR to run reliably is lubrication. It has been proven time and again that M4/M16/AR will run with no cleaning for tens of thousands of rounds as long as you keep them lubricated.

How many Colts are put in the hands of "noobs?" Tens of thousands daily? I was one of them. I had a M16A4 placed in my hands and it functioned reliably even though I had never even seen one in my life before then. I wonder how many new recruits fresh off the street have the same experience. I bet it's a huge number.

A DPMS is a good $500-$600 AR.

[RyanBDawg]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

A DPMS is a good $500-$600 AR.

Good luck finding any for that price OP!


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

[stooxie]

Originally Posted by larson1122

This is not a difficult concept. He asked for thoughts and feelings on DPMS, but for whatever reason you chose to talk about "Colt operators" instead. Believe it or not, people can have opinions about something without currently owning one, and I do not currently own one for the reasons outlined in this thread.

I dunno, I think this thread is going exactly how I said it would. The people who have DPMSs seem to vouch for them and the people with Colts/LMT/DD/etc insist that those very experiences can't be right.

Its like talking about 1911s. Do you really need a $5,000 Wilson Combat to get a working 1911? Or a $2,000 one? The people with the RIAs and other GI clones seem to think they work just fine and maybe they aren't expecting it to make it through Thunder Ranch.

If the AR-15 platform is SO finicky that only one or two brands will "function" then we should all be buying AKs instead. Somehow that bucket of pinball machine parts manages to go bang every time.

-Stooxie

[stooxie]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Edit: The amount of hatred toward quality, on this forum, is saddening.

I don't think anyone is hating on "quality." I don't see anyone arguing that Colt/LMT/BCM/Noveske/DD/etc doesn't make an excellent product, better than the rest.

I don't argue against that either.

However, aside from a 6920 at Walmart, most of those rifles are significantly more expensive. The price difference may be attainable to some, not for others. What happens if you don't want a 6920? What happens if you want a rifle length gas system? What if you want a middy? What $1,000 Colt do I buy now? The MT6700 is (WAS) $1,300, which is maybe 80% more than a Bushy/RRA/DPMS/Del-ton?

It's just like going into a motorcycle dealer for a standard bike and having them talk you into a CBR600RR because the sales guy is an ex-racer and that's the only bike that he thinks will run when you turn the key. (Ask me how I know)

-Stooxie

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by stooxie

I don't think anyone is hating on "quality." I don't see anyone arguing that Colt/LMT/BCM/Noveske/DD/etc doesn't make an excellent product, better than the rest.

I don't argue against that either.

However, aside from a 6920 at Walmart, most of those rifles are significantly more expensive. The price difference may be attainable to some, not for others. What happens if you don't want a 6920? What happens if you want a rifle length gas system? What if you want a middy? What $1,000 Colt do I buy now? The MT6700 is (WAS) $1,300, which is maybe 80% more than a Bushy/RRA/DPMS/Del-ton?

It's just like going into a motorcycle dealer for a standard bike and having them talk you into a CBR600RR because the sales guy is an ex-racer and that's the only bike that he thinks will run when you turn the key. (Ask me how I know)

-Stooxie

You make a valid point. I think if you looked into it a little closer you'll find the gap in price is much smaller than you imagine.

For example, look at the DPMS "MOE Warrior" as compared to the 6920 or a "standard" middy upper from BCM which you can put on the lower of your choice. You'll see that although prices may only be a couple hundred apart the gap in quality is tremendous.

Basically when comparing apples to apples companies like Colt and BCM offer a huge value.

Don't forget about the M&P Sport. I've shot a couple and they are solid and in the $700 price range.

I'm not a big 1911 guy but w/ ARs it's an issue of reliability. As you've seen here and other places certain ARs are more synonymous w/ reliability.

If you are ok w/ cutting corners DPMS or Olympic can get you into an AR for less.

[billy b]

to some people on here if your rifle is not a colt it's a pos.i have a dpms oracle. it has been 100% relible with mostly reloads. and it's accurate. i also have a dpms stainless 24'' upper. it will shoot 1\2'' groups at 200 yards. but since it's not a colt all that doesn' t matter.

[LA_357SIG]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Highly doubt this has anything to do w/ it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to lubricate a firearm. All it takes for an AR to run reliably is lubrication. It has been proven time and again that M4/M16/AR will run with no cleaning for tens of thousands of rounds as long as you keep them lubricated.

How many Colts are put in the hands of "noobs?" Tens of thousands daily? I was one of them. I had a M16A4 placed in my hands and it functioned reliably even though I had never even seen one in my life before then. I wonder how many new recruits fresh off the street have the same experience. I bet it's a huge number.

A DPMS is a good $500-$600 AR.

The M16A4 put in your hands 1. Probably had thousands of rounds put through it before you and 2.) was part of an organized maintenance program carried out by a trained company level armorer. Uncle Sam didn't just drop by Colt Defense or FN, picked you up an A4 hand you a box and said "here go do some shootin'."

Sent from my ADR6350

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by billy b

to some people on here if your rifle is not a colt it's a pos.i have a dpms oracle. it has been 100% relible with mostly reloads. and it's accurate. i also have a dpms stainless 24'' upper. it will shoot 1\2'' groups at 200 yards. but since it's not a colt all that doesn' t matter.

Your DPMS shoots groups on par with the word's best, custom made sniper rifles?

Sorry if I find that a little hard to believe.

[Made in Austria]

I think the lifetime, durability, selection of certain materials, precision, testing/research, and metal treatments are the biggest differences between an lower grade rifle and an higher grade rifle like BCM, Colt, etc. I am sure that most DPMS rifles work great out of the box, but the question is how long will it run great?

High end rifle makers put so much effort into precision, making fine and long lasting + highly reliable BCG's possible, and of couse paying a lot of attention to other important components of a rifle. I think this is why I personaly prefer higher grade rifles/components, because I love strong/long lasting build stuff.

It all comes down to what you want and how much $$$ you can/want to spend. You get a lower grade rifle for less dollars. You can get a higher grade rifle for more dollars.

[bmoore]

Originally Posted by billy b

to some people on here if your rifle is not a colt it's a pos.i have a dpms oracle. it has been 100% relible with mostly reloads. and it's accurate. i also have a dpms stainless 24'' upper. it will shoot 1\2'' groups at 200 yards. but since it's not a colt all that doesn' t matter.

1/2" groups at 200 yards? What load are you running, bullet weight? Powder? What is the twist? What glass is on that thing?

[billy b]

55 nosler balistic tip. 27.0 748. averages 3250. once fired sorted brass. i have a bushmaster h-bar that will shoot that same load around 1 1\4 at 200 yards. sightron 6x24 on dpms. nikon 6x18 on bush. i have been shooting & reloading a lot of years & know how to get the best out of my guns. if you colt guys don't want to believe that a non colt can do that i could care less.

[bmoore]

Originally Posted by billy b

55 nosler balistic tip. 27.0 748. averages 3250. once fired sorted brass. i have a bushmaster h-bar that will shoot that same load around 1 1\4 at 200 yards. sightron 6x24 on dpms. nikon 6x18 on bush. i have been shooting & reloading a lot of years & know how to get the best out of my guns. if you colt guys don't want to believe that a non colt can do that i could care less.

I don't think it has anything to do with Colt. What you fail to understand is that people don't buy Colts for accuracy, they buy them for reliablitiy into the thousands and thousands of rounds.

[tampashooters]

Originally Posted by bmoore

I don't think it has anything to do with Colt. What you fail to understand is that people don't buy Colts for accuracy, they buy them for reliablitiy into the thousands and thousands of rounds.

Colt fanboys are just like Gun Control advocates... You can't tell them anything. Yet, they just keep talking and talking and talking, defending their cause until the end... then making up more stuff to fight about.

[collim1]

Originally Posted by stooxie

Well, Collim1, your SWAT team is clearly not down with the 411 cuz if they were your DPMS rifles would know to be malfunctioning at the proper rate. They just missed the memo from Colt Industries.



Be prepared for all the operators to tell you that Colt is the only true rifle!

-Stooxie

Yeah, alot of the guys were not happy about them cheaping out and getting the DPMS vs the Colts they normally issue. They only bought the DPMS once and have since started buying Colt again.

That being said, I have heard of no issues from the DPMS and they are still being used.

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by billy b

to some people on here if your rifle is not a colt it's a pos.i have a dpms oracle. it has been 100% relible with mostly reloads. and it's accurate. i also have a dpms stainless 24'' upper. it will shoot 1\2'' groups at 200 yards. but since it's not a colt all that doesn' t matter.

Name some names. I haven't seen any posters who have said or even eluded to this.

I think the issue being discussed is reliability. Bench resting a gun really pulls no weight in the world of reliability.

Originally Posted by LA_357SIG

The M16A4 put in your hands 1. Probably had thousands of rounds put through it before you and 2.) was part of an organized maintenance program carried out by a trained company level armorer. Uncle Sam didn't just drop by Colt Defense or FN, picked you up an A4 hand you a box and said "here go do some shootin'."

Sent from my ADR6350

Organized maintenance program? LOL. You don't know much about basic directly following 9-11-01.

[bushhogg]

All those rifles mentioned and nothing about Arma Lite...

[WoodenPlank]

Originally Posted by billy b

55 nosler balistic tip. 27.0 748. averages 3250. once fired sorted brass. i have a bushmaster h-bar that will shoot that same load around 1 1\4 at 200 yards. sightron 6x24 on dpms. nikon 6x18 on bush. i have been shooting & reloading a lot of years & know how to get the best out of my guns. if you colt guys don't want to believe that a non colt can do that i could care less.

It has nothing to do with it being DPMS, and everything to do with you claiming .25MOA groups at 200 yards with an AR-15. While it CAN be done, .223/5.56 rifles (edit: specifically, AR15s) capable of this are fairly few and far between. Same thing goes for the shooters.

[2.0tspeed]

[bmoore]

Originally Posted by tampashooters

Colt fanboys are just like Gun Control advocates... You can't tell them anything. Yet, they just keep talking and talking and talking, defending their cause until the end... then making up more stuff to fight about.

[jpwalnuthill]

I own two of the Oracles and both have run flawlessly for thousands of rounds. One will shoot .750 groups at 100 yds. The other only 1.25 inches at 100 yds. That is with reloads. Have a good friend with a colt and don't see much difference in quality. Can buy a lot of powder, bullets and primers for difference in price. Just take care of it and will last you a long time.

[LA_357SIG]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Name some names. I haven't seen any posters who have said or even eluded to this.

I think the issue being discussed is reliability. Bench resting a gun really pulls no weight in the world of reliability.



Organized maintenance program? LOL. You don't know much about basic directly following 9-11-01.

What has changed since 1997? Certainly at least one PMCS is conducted between cycles by the company armorer.

[c01]

Have an Oracle. No problems and I always run it wet. Around 700 rnds through gun. No steel yet although that is going to change soon.

D