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Old 01-30-2013, 10:16   #21
rustytxrx
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If Charley Brown was Everyman then the Glock G20 is Charley Brown's hunting semiauto pistol. Dependable, hunting accuracy, and in the price range. The G20 and the 10mm hold a remarkable niche.

After the G20 the price starts up and can go way up. Ya can easily spend $3k on a 1911 10mm.

I can tell you for a fact, that the 10mm will get the job done. The only thing is......you still have to do your part. For bigger game the 10mm doesn't allow for poor marksmanship.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:26   #22
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Love my G20!

I have two Delta Elite Colts. I bought the first as soon as they where offered. I shot a couple boxes of Norma ammo and realized the Colt ain't exactly built for its power! Over the next 15 years I shot it on and off. Then bought a G20. Short hoy after a KKM6" barrel. Then better sights and some trigger improvements. Then worked up some loads around a 200g XTP and Longshot.
I shot my first deer with the 10mm this past season. I used a factory Silvertip with excellent Results!

I also have a Ruger Bisley 45 Colt as a hunting gun. I like them both and shoot both well but the Ruger is more accurate at over 50 yards. Both easily handle 2" @ 50 but the Ruger is not quite 4"@100 while the GLOCK is closer to 8"@100. MOST of that is the broader GLOCK sites. I'll keep BOTH! But the 10 is defineately a favorite!

CW
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Old 01-30-2013, 19:46   #23
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Originally Posted by RYT 2BER View Post
I hear you. But I guess my confusion stems from your velocity numbers. Exactly what .40 180 gr bullet is going 1350?? For the record, underwood hot 180 gr +p .40 is rated at 1100 and his stuff is about as hot as it gets.

I have to call major bs until I see 180 gr .40 doing the velocity numbers you are talking about. Which is why you are mistaken thinking .40 and 10 are 150 ft /sec different
Underwood makes good ammo, but to assume they're as hot as it gets isn't accurate. Take the OP for instance, Underwood's doesn't offer a 180gr GD at 1450 fps. The one they do offer is listed at 1300 fps, so I could say that it's BS that the 10mm could shoot one at 1450. Take into account that Underwood's uses 800x in their 10mm loads and the charge they use is over book max by close to 10%. Obviously using 800x to get 1450 fps is over pressure as well, but I'm fine with that, I've pushed the 10mm and .40 both.


You ask for proof for my velocity numbers. In a 6" G24 .40 cal KKM barrel, using Longshot (10% over) it will shoot a 180gr XTP an average of 1,400 fps. Same setup but instead not quite 6% over book, it will average 1,330 fps with a 15 fps ES. Remember Hodgdon claims a 180gr @ 1160 fps from a 4" bbl using Longshot with pressure to spare, so adding more barrel increases the velocity.


It's all about finding the right powder, not that the .40 is incapable. Even with common powders like Unique, a less than book max charge will do a 180gr @ 1100 fps from a 4" G23 (and 1200 from a longer barrel). That load is below max pressure and goes as fast as Underwood's yet isn't "+P" at all. If UW is going to market their .40 as +P, they need to do the same with their 10mm.

Quote:
Exactly... That 200 ft/sec for example on a 180 grain bullet isnt anything to sneeze at 20% may not sound like alot to some people but in the real world 200 ft/second increased velocity isnt a joke..

Now if you "need" that or not or if its important is a bigger question.. but its the same kind of question of saying do you really need 357 mag over a 38 spl. It really is exactly the same question... It is a function of do you need a magnum style version of one round or another...

But to say that from a kinetic energy perspective or from a velocity perspective that .40 and 10mm are the same is crazy..
Also, I never said the 10mm and the .40 are the same. The 10mm should be faster than the .40 because it can hold a little more powder, but that alone won't bring huge velocity increases, rather around 100-150 fps, that is if they're both loaded to the same level. From my data for both cartridges, with the heavy 220-230gr bullets, the 10mm is almost 14% faster, and even less with lighter bullets.


There is much more difference between a 38 Spcl and .357 Mag than there is between the .40 and 10mm, so comparing them isn't accurate. Now if the 10mm operated at nearly twice the pressure as the .40, like the .357 does compared to the 38 Spcl, then you really would see 300-400+ fps velocity increase over the .40. But this isn't the case at all. While the 10mm might be rated 2.5K PSI higher than the .40, that means little as the .40 is a little stronger in the case.
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Old 01-30-2013, 20:01   #24
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Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
If you take your 40 cal vs 10 mm pig hunting often, you will soon see the light. If you decided to take on pigs the size of the one posted you would learn the lesson real quickly.

I understand combat shooting, multiply hits, recoil recovery, accuracy, capacity. They are not important in hunting situations. To a great extent there is no comparison.

Hunting, perfect bullet placement with all the energy and bullet performance you can get, is what i'm after. I doubt you could put two rounds in the right spot no matter how good your split time is. Pigs are fast. Put all your money on the first shot.

Use your 40 cal for carry. Pigs are a lot tougher than humans.
I'm not saying you wouldn't ever see ANY difference at all between a warm .40 vs. a warm 10mm. It's doubtful though and any difference you did see would likely be because of any change in shot placement as opposed to any power difference. At the same time, if you're comparing/shooting a warm 10mm and a "standard" .40 of course you're going to see some difference, but that's apples to oranges and not what I'm talking about. To look at the .40 as a combat tool against humans and the 10mm as a pure bred hunting machine is a bit biased.

With both loaded warm, in the field you or the animal won't know the difference. I'm not trying to come off sounding like I'm against the 10mm, I'm not. Shoot a 10mm and be happy, but I don't buy for a second that a warm 10mm offers any practical value over a warm .40. If I want a true step up, I'm going big bore revolver.
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Old 01-30-2013, 21:14   #25
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SDGlock23, let's just think about over the counter rounds that I could by in Fort Worth. Do you think I can buy 40 S&W that equals what I can buy for the 10mm OTC?.

I used to be a big reloader but not so much anymore.

I have two 40 cal and four 10mm. I do like to hunt with a semi auto. Been working on a 460 Rowland and a 45 Super.

I am no longer strong enough to shoot warm 10mm with good split times. Now I need to use rabbit poot rounds to shoot 150+ good shots (well 2/3 of them or pretty good)
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Old 01-30-2013, 21:22   #26
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Great info, thanks for posting.
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Old 01-30-2013, 21:23   #27
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Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
the 10mm (Glocks) can be had in mid sized or full sized, with watered down .40cal power loads or full house 10mm loads and most anything in betwix.

simply awsome.
+1 on that.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:08   #28
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Also, I never said the 10mm and the .40 are the same. The 10mm should be faster than the .40 because it can hold a little more powder, but that alone won't bring huge velocity increases, rather around 100-150 fps, that is if they're both loaded to the same level. From my data for both cartridges, with the heavy 220-230gr bullets, the 10mm is almost 14% faster, and even less with lighter bullets.
You really load 220-230 gr. bullets in .40 cases? IMO, those are beyond the range of the 10mm which I feel is best with 165-200. .40 best with 155-180. What were the velocities with those loads? What was the purpose, hunting, target? No doubt, the 10mm is more capable with longer, heavier bullets.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:20   #29
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That is one big pig!!!
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Old 02-01-2013, 14:51   #30
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You really load 220-230 gr. bullets in .40 cases? IMO, those are beyond the range of the 10mm which I feel is best with 165-200. .40 best with 155-180. What were the velocities with those loads? What was the purpose, hunting, target? No doubt, the 10mm is more capable with longer, heavier bullets.
Yeah I've loaded 220gr SNS casting hardcast and the 230gr WFNGC, offered by doubletap. I got the SNS mainly to try out some weak competition loads and at that time I also had a 10mm. Anyways I load them slightly long in the .40 to around 1.150" and they will average 1100 fps from a 6" bbl. I've found that 1.155"-1.160" (depending on bullet profile) is about as long as you can load the .40 and still fit them in the magazine.

Because of the complete lack of data for such loads, I've not worked with them too much, but I feel 1100 fps is good enough. When I loaded them for the 10mm, I got up to around 1220-1230 from a 6.6" LW bbl. I don't feel either one will bounce off game.
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Old 02-01-2013, 15:01   #31
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Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
SDGlock23, let's just think about over the counter rounds that I could by in Fort Worth. Do you think I can buy 40 S&W that equals what I can buy for the 10mm OTC?.

I used to be a big reloader but not so much anymore.

I have two 40 cal and four 10mm. I do like to hunt with a semi auto. Been working on a 460 Rowland and a 45 Super.

I am no longer strong enough to shoot warm 10mm with good split times. Now I need to use rabbit poot rounds to shoot 150+ good shots (well 2/3 of them or pretty good)
Rusty, I guess I assumed you reload, my apologizes.

Good luck with your 460 Rowland and .45 Super, I've had fun with the .45 Super so far and I've heard the Rowland is a beast. I have a soft spot for big, heavy hardcasts. I'm sure you know, but Buffalo Bore offers both .45 Super and 460 Rowland . I'm going to work up a 280gr WFNCG Beartooth bullet in the .45 Super and hope to get close to 1050-1100 fps in the 5" KKM bbl.
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Old 02-01-2013, 16:13   #32
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If you take your 40 cal vs 10 mm pig hunting often, you will soon see the light. If you decided to take on pigs the size of the one posted you would learn the lesson real quickly.

I understand combat shooting, multiply hits, recoil recovery, accuracy, capacity. They are not important in hunting situations. To a great extent there is no comparison.

Hunting, perfect bullet placement with all the energy and bullet performance you can get, is what i'm after. I doubt you could put two rounds in the right spot no matter how good your split time is. Pigs are fast. Put all your money on the first shot.

Use your 40 cal for carry. Pigs are a lot tougher than humans.

for the record...I put two rounds in that pig's boiler with a quick double tap and it got to its feet and stumbled about 8 feet then died. after looking at its vitals (mostly jelly) I am confident that any two legged critter would react the same. I've never taken any large game with any other pistol caliber, but I would not attempt this with any 9mm, 380, 40, or with ball ammunition in a 45.

there's just something about being able to fine-tune an instrument like a G20 with couple of hand-rolled pills and have confidence in its capabilities. I cant say that about many semi-auto calibers.
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Old 02-01-2013, 16:56   #33
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for the record...I put two rounds in that pig's boiler with a quick double tap and it got to its feet and stumbled about 8 feet then died. after looking at its vitals (mostly jelly) I am confident that any two legged critter would react the same. I've never taken any large game with any other pistol caliber, but I would not attempt this with any 9mm, 380, 40, or with ball ammunition in a 45.

there's just something about being able to fine-tune an instrument like a G20 with couple of hand-rolled pills and have confidence in its capabilities. I cant say that about many semi-auto calibers.
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Old 02-01-2013, 22:28   #34
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i just got a G20 today think i am really going to like it but not sure what would be the best ammo to go with. let me know what u guys like
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:34   #35
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for the record...I put two rounds in that pig's boiler with a quick double tap and it got to its feet and stumbled about 8 feet then died. after looking at its vitals (mostly jelly) I am confident that any two legged critter would react the same. I've never taken any large game with any other pistol caliber, but I would not attempt this with any 9mm, 380, 40, or with ball ammunition in a 45.

there's just something about being able to fine-tune an instrument like a G20 with couple of hand-rolled pills and have confidence in its capabilities. I cant say that about many semi-auto calibers.
Eight feet? That isn't very far at all. Most deer hunters have to track their shot deer for much farther than that.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:22   #36
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Eight feet? That isn't very far at all. Most deer hunters have to track their shot deer for much farther than that.

I agree...I fired two shots very quickly and knocked the boar down, (I regret not taking him down to the local feed store to weigh it, but I would conservatively guess 350-400lbs). he got to his feet and stumbled like a drunk a few steps and died right there. I've seen more large whitetails drop on the spot with a 30-06 than I've had to track.

It comes down to being able to put enough energy into the vital organs to immediately destroy the tissue. a bonded 180gr .40 slug at high velocity has both the surface area to reach more tissue than a 9mm or similar, and the shock of 840lbs of energy that stays in the target in the slug doesn't pass through.

With this pig, both slugs were recovered and as far as I could tell, the extreme damage to the heart and lungs has something to do with the speed and weight.

It is my opinion that this is the true "norma" load (180gr bonded slug going 1400+fps) that was adopted by the feds after the Miami shootout. It does have a stiff recoil a very load report, so I can see why some weaker agents had difficulty with it. I would not be surprised if other federal agencies use the 10mm and we just don't know.

If your still reading, my father and I were shocked at the damage to the pigs heart/lungs...if this were a 400lb athletic BG, would you want a 40S&W at 1,000fps or a 10mm with almost 50%more velocity?

-Diesel
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:29   #37
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Rusty, I guess I assumed you reload, my apologizes.

Good luck with your 460 Rowland and .45 Super, I've had fun with the .45 Super so far and I've heard the Rowland is a beast. I have a soft spot for big, heavy hardcasts. I'm sure you know, but Buffalo Bore offers both .45 Super and 460 Rowland . I'm going to work up a 280gr WFNCG Beartooth bullet in the .45 Super and hope to get close to 1050-1100 fps in the 5" KKM bbl.
As an fyi the 275 grain hunters supply bullet works great and has a good nose profile so you dont have to seat the bullet so deeply. I've gone 1200 fps in a 6 inch tube in super brass. 300 grain bullets usually require acp brass since its a bit thinner and doesnt bulge as soon, but with a good supported chamber with enough case support i've gotten 950 fps out of them.
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Old 02-04-2013, 16:03   #38
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I shot a small 140# Whitetail this year with my G20. I used a factory Winchester Silver tip 175g.
(I intended to use my hand loads I worked up all summer. But when a friends son show up unexpectedly, I lent my rifle to my friend, his son took his rifle and I took the G20 I was carrying... Silver tips are my carry ammo)

The deer came in quartering toward me, I shot him at about 40-45 yards. The bullet impacted at the base of the neck. Upon impact the deer dropped to the ground. The bullet went thru the bottom of the spine, then the shoulder and then shoulder blade and finally exited animal on the animals right shoulder. That was about 12" of penetration. Entrance was almost a nickle and exit was a quarter. The bullet was not recovered.

Caliber Corner

I have shot a half a doz pigs with my 45 Colt and one with a 45 ACP. Looking forward to the first 10MM hog.

CW
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:15   #39
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I shot a small 140# Whitetail this year with my G20. I used a factory Winchester Silver tip 175g.
(I intended to use my hand loads I worked up all summer. But when a friends son show up unexpectedly, I lent my rifle to my friend, his son took his rifle and I took the G20 I was carrying... Silver tips are my carry ammo)

The deer came in quartering toward me, I shot him at about 40-45 yards. The bullet impacted at the base of the neck. Upon impact the deer dropped to the ground. The bullet went thru the bottom of the spine, then the shoulder and then shoulder blade and finally exited animal on the animals right shoulder. That was about 12" of penetration. Entrance was almost a nickle and exit was a quarter. The bullet was not recovered.



I have shot a half a doz pigs with my 45 Colt and one with a 45 ACP. Looking forward to the first 10MM hog.

CW
I gotta ask this question. I'm not a hunter nor will I ever be.

That notwithstanding I always wonder... Look at your experience. That deer was shot at 45 feet. Bullet was all over then existed. What happens when you shoot a bad guy at 7 feet...is that bullet going right through? I mean deer skin is pretty frigin tough.

I carry hot 10mm... Hotter than silvertips and I wonder the same about myself.
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:29   #40
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...What happens when you shoot a bad guy at 7 feet...is that bullet going right through? I mean deer skin is pretty frigin tough...

You OWN every bullet you expend in a gunfight. If you have a "through & through" & injure an innocent bystander then you go to court just as if you hit them with a missed shot.
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