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Old 02-01-2013, 15:52   #26
Cwlongshot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineHawk View Post
CW, I have the same basic setup, but I can't find 1,300 fps 200gr ammo. Are they reloads? I would love to have even 1,200 fps HC WFN ammo, but it seems like, despite some manufacturers' claims, that does not exist yet. But perhaps I've missed something good out there.
Yes hand loads, aside form Rim fires, the 10MM Silver Tips are the first factory ammo I have bought in over 10 years.

I started working up some loads with Blue dot and got some good velocities but then pressure signs but then none... I was steered to Longshot, I liked the name. This powder is much friendlier and no pressure spikes. I have chronographed loads and stopped because I reached velocities I wanted. I'll not resite my loads, but sufice it to say, they are beyond the book...

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Old 02-01-2013, 19:58   #27
MarineHawk
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Any Cal., I appreciate your thoughtful comments and questions. Keep in mind that I have some firm beliefs and some information, but I am wrong all the time. So take this with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
… you have to hold the gun much firmer for the heavier spring to work. Could it be that the heavy spring still lets the slide hit just as hard because of that? I don't know.

My strong suspicion is that, for me and most, there is no difference, as to grip strength. I generally use mostly the same stance and grip when shooting different calibers. There might be a difference if I had to weak-grip a handgun when firing due to injury or something. But I would just a soon jump off the bridge when I come to it.

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Is the slide speed related to kinetic energy or momentum?

Momentum is Mass x Vel. The momentum of the bullet plus gas escaping forward out of the barrel (that’s why muzzle brakes decrease recoil by directing the gas in a difference direction) is going to be equal to the rearward momentum of the firearm. The rearward momentum of the firearm overall will equal the same figure. For an auto, up to the point when the slide hits the receiver, that holds true for the rearward movement of the slide, except for the force imparted by the recoil spring, which redistributes some of that momentum to the frame. The overall recoil impulse is based on the rearward energy of the firearm (1/2MV^2), not its momentum. But the severity of felt recoil is affected by anything that might spread out the rearward movement over time.

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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
… is it actually detrimental for the slide to hit the frame harder?

It has to increase wear on the mechanical system. However, it is possible that the G20 design simply is strong enough that it doesn’t matter. I don’t know. For the sake of argument, ignore any additional stress on the firearm caused by the additional increased velocity of the slide striking the receiver.

But, the reason various recoil-reducing devices work is that they spread out recoil energy over time—round off the peak pressure curve. Thus, for example, for a pistol and revolver of the same weight firing the same weigh bullet at the same velocity, the revolver will generally produce greater felt recoil (grip shape; the distance of the muzzle axis to the grip; and countless other factors can affect this). This is because while the slide is moving rearward, but under spring tension, it is spreading out the recoil over time. The revolver’s recoil is felt all at once. They have the same recoil energy, but with the semi-auto, it is spread out over time. That’s also why recoil pads, mercury tubes, etc … work. They spread out and slow down the release of energy into your shoulder or hand.

That’s also why, while a Federal 3” mag 12-ga slug (547gr at 3,110 fps) has more momentum than the 300gr 2,770 fps bullet fired from my .375 Wby rifle, but has less felt recoil: Because the heavier slower bullet has more of a push than a snap. Same recoil energy, but the slower, heavier round spreads it out more over time.

So, the more of the recoil energy that is absorbed by a semi-auto firearm while the slide is still moving rearward and pushing back on the spring (spreading the impulse out over time) and the less remaining energy that is absorbed in an instant (like a revolver) by the slide smacking hard against the receiver, will mean the you will “feel” less recoil—i.e., it will be spread out more over time: more of a pushing than a smacking.

My own view (again, I could be wrong) is that the energy of the slide slamming against the receiver in a gun like a G20 with hot loads is a lot more destructive than the force of a 22lb spring closing the slide. So, to the extent one is concerned about wear, the former outweighs the latter.

Again, I could be completely wrong about my conclusions because I often miss important factors in things like these. But those are my thoughts.
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Old 02-01-2013, 22:24   #28
Any Cal.
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That works as well as anything. I don't have all the answers, just looking for them. I would agree that the recoil could seem softer because it was less abrupt, and that a slower rearward slide movement could seem to be better. It still just leaves the questions of whether the gun's design is strong enough to make it a moot point, and whether there is any issue at all with doing it just because... There is a good chance that it may not matter one way or the other, but that is markedly different from the idea that a stronger spring would be required.

If you are the same guy that posted pics of fishing for grayling in AK around a year or two back, I really liked a couple of your posts. I don't remember where they were or what they were about, but recognize the user name.
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Old 02-02-2013, 09:00   #29
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Originally Posted by Any Cal. View Post
That works as well as anything. I don't have all the answers, just looking for them. I would agree that the recoil could seem softer because it was less abrupt, and that a slower rearward slide movement could seem to be better. It still just leaves the questions of whether the gun's design is strong enough to make it a moot point, and whether there is any issue at all with doing it just because... There is a good chance that it may not matter one way or the other, but that is markedly different from the idea that a stronger spring would be required.

If you are the same guy that posted pics of fishing for grayling in AK around a year or two back, I really liked a couple of your posts. I don't remember where they were or what they were about, but recognize the user name.
Thanks Any Cal. Yes, that probably was me. I went on a brown bear hunt and fishing trip a couple of years ago: http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ort-and-Photos)

The other thing I failed to meniton is that the 2-spring design, like on the G27 and now the Gen4 Glocks may solve the dillema entirely if they are designed correctly. The first time I saw something like that was on the .40 HK USP I bought bakc in '94, and then again on the G27 I bought a while back. My G27 seems to recoil significantly less than othewr., much large .40s firing the same ammo. In my opinion, a 2-spring design could give you the best of both worlds: (1) A moderate spring to resist the rearward motion of the slide initially that is light enough to permit the cartridge to eject on an wide range of mild-to-hot loads; and (2) a heavier spring that kicks in only after that and which will continue slowing the slide when hotter loads are fired. I do not have a Gen4 yet, but that seems to be the case on the stock springs I have on my G27 and my USP. I honestly do not know if the slide ever quite hits the receiver at all on those two guns with normal .40 S&W loads. I don't know exactly how these 2-spring systems function in practical reality, but in theory they should allow a weak-heavy spring combo that allows realiable function and zero or reduced slide/receiver impact with a wide range of loads.
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Old 04-30-2013, 17:39   #30
Stkx66
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I have a G20 SF and had more than one FTF with DT 200 grain hardcast rounds. After reading some of the threads here on Glock Talk I tried the youtube RSA spring test and discovered that my recoil spring needed changing. I don't believe that I have shot much over 1,000 rounds with this pistol. I ordered a 20 lb Brass Stacker RSA which I recieved in 3 days. The slide closes more firmly now over the 17lb stock RSA but not to hard. I shot 150 rounds of Remington UMC, 50 rounds of Underwood 200 gr XTP's and 40 rounds of DT 200 gr Hardcast. Although this may not be a huge amount of ammo cycled through this gun after making a change, I believe I've made a good improvement going to this 20 lb spring so far. Stock pistol otherwise.
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Old 04-30-2013, 19:29   #31
Taterhead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
A heavier spring won't reduce "felt recoil". Most often, it will increase it.
That's exactly right.

The forward return is also more abrupt, so getting sights back on target are a bit slower for me with my 22# Wolff.

Another disadvantage of stiffer springs is that it reduces the time that the slide dwells in the locked back (rearward) position. Also, the forward velocity is increased. The combination reduced lock-back time and increased return velocity can increase the likelihood of misfeads (as I have experienced) due to the slide returning quicker. What happens is that the slide returns before the next round is lifted up to position. The result is nose-up misfeeds.

Shooting one-hand, weak-hand, or in an odd angle of presentation can induce a bit of "limp-wristing." A heavier spring can cause a slight case of limp-wristing to manifest into a misfeed as described above. This is especially true with hotter ammo.

The advice to the OP would be to shoot the thing. If there is a problem that would be solved by a higher spring rate, then it is a relatively inexpensive fix. Realistically though, you'll probably have no issues.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:55   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dm1906 View Post
A heavier spring won't reduce "felt recoil". Most often, it will increase it.
THIS.

My suggestion to the OP is to leave it stock for everything except for maybe the VERY HOTTEST of loads available (handloads or factory) ... and even then, only change to a 20lb spring if you are having issues (ie, bulging brass, ejection issues, etc).

FWIW, the stock spring will always be most reliable with any load, IMHO.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:22   #33
igorts
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I use 22# on my G20L and standard on G29.
no problem with any, also told to use 15# with G20 conversion barrel to .40, but had no issues with using #22
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:23   #34
igorts
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I use 22# on my G20L and standard on G29.
no problem with any, also told to use 15# with G20 conversion barrel to .40, but had no issues with using #22 with .40
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