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Old 01-28-2013, 17:09   #26
GruGrux515
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Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name
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Old 01-28-2013, 18:18   #27
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Love my Glocks especially my new Gen 4 model 21! Just got the the Hk45 and Hk45C. Everything about theses pistols are beautiful. The engineering, the fit and finish, and the grip is about as perfect as you can get for a polymer pistol. It's the softest shooting 45 I've ever shot!! Hk's are really that good.
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Old 01-28-2013, 18:29   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
If you don't like Sig, fine.

Don't act like an immature horse's ass and spout a bunch of nonsense.

Sigs are among the most reliable pistols ever built.
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Old 01-28-2013, 18:39   #29
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Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
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Originally Posted by danysw View Post
Are you sure you don't have a lemon? ...
...
)
Do you really think he actually has a Sig or is he just trying to re-convince himself he really did make a good purchase in the Glock.
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Originally Posted by 2-8 Marine View Post
Thank you for your input Gaston.


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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
If you don't like Sig, fine.

Don't act like an immature horse's ass and spout a bunch of nonsense.

Sigs are among the most reliable pistols ever built.
Again my guess is that he is trying to convince himself he chose the right gun.


I would like to add in addition to some notable differences in the machine work needed for a Sig or an H&K as opposed to the Glock, we also need to remember that Sig and H&K manufacture a fairly wide variety of different handguns and long guns.

As was suggested in another post a decade or two ago the three were more closely priced but two have gone up much more than the third.

Maybe when Glock finally gets around to making the Glock carbine, the Glock 1911, and the small single stack 9mm Glock, Glock prices will rise across the board.
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Old 01-28-2013, 20:49   #30
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Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
Don't know what you are reading or who you are listening to. Sigs are the no. 1 best performing handgun I have ever had. There are not many handguns made in the last 100 or so years that I have not had experience handeling and shooting. You may be a poser or a joker, but you sure don't know Sigs. Bryco?
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Old 01-28-2013, 22:43   #31
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I have ome of each - a Glock 32c, and a Sig P229. In my opinion, they are both good semi-autos, with the Glock being a "Ford", vs the Sig being a "Cadillac", in overall design. They both shoot every-time I pull the trigger, but the Sig has design features, such as all metal frame and stainless slide, that I consider much better.

Both of these pistols are "compacts", and for me, a big simple positive that favors the Glock for CC (only reason I bought Glock), is that its weight is about 1/2 pound less than the p229. They each will shoot the same three calibers (with proper barrels), so, I just have two really good pistols for my use and for my enjoyment.
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Old 01-28-2013, 22:46   #32
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Originally Posted by wacopolumbo View Post
I am a Sig, Glock and Beretta armorer (haven't been to the HK course yet). Also, I have carried just about every make and model of short and long gun either for personal CCW or into harms way (Afghanistan and Iraq and some other places). For long guns, I loved the Sig rifle (552) we carried on a protective detail. I am NOT an M4 fan and would carry and "acquired" AK whenever possible. Also, the HK MP5 is tough to beat.

Now, back to the handguns...

HK pistols are well engineered, wonderful pieces of equipment. The P7 was expensive to manufacture with the squeeze cocker and all the parts. I had several over the years. When the USP first came out in the mid 90s, you could get them at reasonable prices. In the late 90s when the Euro was established and immediately was worth more than the dollar, importing HKs became more expensive almost over night. If you add in that HK would rather just deal with military and LE than civilians, there was no desire to drive prices down. I lived in Germany and went to the HK headquarters to be qualified on the MP7 and was told by the HK reps that they wished they wouldn't have to deal with civilians.

Ahhhh, Sig...my duty weapon...in the 90s, you could go to a gun show and buy a NIB Glock for $400, a NIB USP for $500 and a NIB Sig for $500. Now (before craziness) you could go to a gunshow and buy a NIB Glock for $500, a NIB USP for $900 and a NIB Sig for $900. Crazy and frustrating. I know guys at Sig. They claimed the same Euro transition price hike in 2000. Then in 2005 when the Euro soared, Sig raised prices again, claiming the import cost of guns and parts was the reason. Now that Sig is making the guns completely in Exiter, they haven't lowered any prices. Not only that, they are using MIM parts now. In my opinion, the quality of Sig has gone through the floor in the last 10 years. Ever since the Kimber guy was hired to run SIGARMS (before Sig Sauer took over SIGARMS again), Sig seems to push out more crap than ever. Scorpions, Extremes, rainbow finish, diamond plate finish and the list goes on...

Somehow in all of this, Glock has kept their pricing remarkably stable. They have the manufacturing process down and keep costs low by not having 50 variations of each pistol (ala Sig). Not only are the Glock pistols less expensive and haven't inflated in price over the years like the others, but their accessories and mags are more affordable too.

Now Beretta. I am a big fan of them too. They have also kept their prices stable and their accessories aren't as bad as HK and Sig.

Gotta appreciate Glock. They aren't perfect, but no company is.

Just my .02
Great post, Waco. Thanks.
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Old 01-28-2013, 22:50   #33
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I have a P226 it's a quality weapon. I carry a Glock due to weight and my preference for striker fired vs DA/SA.
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Old 01-28-2013, 23:45   #34
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I don’t believe for a second Sigs and HK’s are “better” guns.
Then you have obviously never owned a Sig or HK.



I used to be like you until I purchased my first HK and my first Sig.

Now I only own two Glocks and my safe is full of HK's and Sigs.

Why?

Well I'll let you figure that one out....
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:16   #35
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Is a Heckler & Koch a "better" gun than a Glock? It depends entirely on what you mean. HKs are certainly just as durable and reliable, and will tend to be more accurate out of the box, and there's really no question that pretty much no major manufacturer in the industry is up to HK's quality control standards. HK controls their entire production chain, they don't outsource small parts...heck, they even make their own steel.

Does that make it a "better" gun? Not for most people. Most people won't ever shoot an HK to its limits, and of the people who would, some have chosen HK (NSW), some have chosen Glock (USASOC).

What does it matter?
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:21   #36
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Mid-1980's to retirement to present, I've spent 25 years plus carrying and shooting semi-auto pistols. 9mm and10mm and 45acp S&W, 9mm and 45acp SIG, 40S&W and 9mm and 45acp Glock. Used 1911s and Browning HP off and on over the time and Walther 9mms.

Nothing in that group compares to the durability and long life of a Glock.

The SIGs were withdrawn from service because of frame cracks at 5000 rounds. Sounds like a Beretta story. The Smiths would break a trigger rebound spring just about the time you thought one might last. (the little two prong flat bent copper colored spring). The Smith 45 unlocked too fast while the pressure was off and ripped rims off the cases. CLEAN it would not extract the first few shots fired. You had to go to training, clean it, and then shoot a couple magazines or it would not work. The P220 would only work with one magic overall length of the rounds. Longer or shorter, they would not feed. Think hardball length in a defensive pistol.

As to prices, Glock sells a lot of guns on a small profit margin. The others sell fewer guns and try to get a bigger profit per unit. It is whatever your business model wants.

As to useage, police and military units using SIG, HK, and Beretta did not dent Glocks 80% share of the police market. The only thing that cut it to 65-70% is the Springfield and S&W clones nearly given to PDs free.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:34   #37
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I'm not real big on the new Sigs built in the States, but they are quality pistols.

As far as HK is concerned, I feel overall quality and fit and finish certainly exceeds Glock by a good amount.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:36   #38
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You keep shooting your overpriced and mile high bore axis Sig. Make sure your well trained to clear pistol jams. I'll keep shooting perfection out of my Glock.
Do us all a big favor and get lost...

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Old 01-29-2013, 05:44   #39
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I think a large part of the reason is parts count. The Glock has something like 34 parts, while Sigs and HKs have around 77-79. More material, machining and fitting.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:49   #40
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Originally Posted by GruGrux515 View Post
Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name
Your analogy is about as classless and wrong as your conclusion. There IS a distinct difference in quality between Glock, HK and Sig; The latter two being made to higher standards. I own, have owned and handled many HK, Sigs and Glocks in my time (66 yrs) and anyone who's experienced them knows that difference. Glock is an excellent gun for what it is. But there is no denying that HK and Sig are better made. People don't buy HK, Sig or even Glock simply for the name, but because of the atributes the name implies, quality, reliability, endurence, dependability, etc they all have their strong points. You may know something about underwear, but Sig and HK's not so much.
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:54   #41
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Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
Did you know that lots of DEA agents are carrying issued P229's at this very moment?
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:57   #42
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Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name
There's lot more than just a difference in name between those guns.

I suggest you educate yourself a bit before posting.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:56   #43
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The P220 would only work with one magic overall length of the rounds. Longer or shorter, they would not feed. Think hardball length in a defensive pistol.
Hm... My P220 shoots my reloaded 230 gr LRN, 230 gr FMJ and 200 gr LSWC without fail. It will also shoot what little factory ammo I buy.

I made no changes whatsoever to my reloading practice to accomodate the Sig. The OAL is 1.250" and it has been for more than 30 years.

Yes, it will even chamber the LSWC without fail.

And my Sig 1911 is superb! It is every bit the equal of my Colt Gold Cup in terms of accuracy and it too will eat everything I feed it.

Quote:

As to prices, Glock sells a lot of guns on a small profit margin. The others sell fewer guns and try to get a bigger profit per unit. It is whatever your business model wants.

As to useage, police and military units using SIG, HK, and Beretta did not dent Glocks 80% share of the police market. The only thing that cut it to 65-70% is the Springfield and S&W clones nearly given to PDs free.
Let's not attribute to quality what can be explained as administrations buying the cheapest possible product.

It's not all that expensive to manufacture a gun by squirting plastic into a mold.

Richard
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:18   #44
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I own Glocks and Sigs, have spent some time with H&Ks.

I don't think there's a lick of difference in quality between any of 'em.

The H&Ks and Sigs simply require more resources to build, that's why they cost more.

They all serve different perceived needs and they do it well.

Glock vs Sig vs H&K:

"Oooooh.. This one's shiny and it's made out of metal... It's high quality."

"Nu-uh. This one is plastic and tennifer, it never rusts and will shoot elventy-zillion rounds in an Afghan sandstorm with no malfunctions."

"But you see... You lack the refinement of ambidextrous slide release levers that rattle, a gritty fourteen pound trigger and $50 magazines. It even has a miniature windshield wiper to keep the headlights clean in the rain Ron..."
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:37   #45
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Glocks are still priced cheap compared to Sig and HK because Glock is essentially building a 25 year old pistol where all the R&D and other upfront costs etc... where paid for a long time ago. Now add in the fact a Glock is the absolute cheapest/simplest design out there and no one can manufacture a quality duty pistol as cheap as Glock can.
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:03   #46
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I shoot and carry a glock 22, Sig P-220, 226, and 229, SA XD-S and CZs, and a few others. I recently got a Steyr M40-a1 which is made in Austria like the Glock. I think the Steyr is more comfy and more accurate than my Glock for me anyway. Also comparing apples and oranges with the Glocks and Sigs and HKs. I would add that in my opinion the new Sigs are not junk like some here have stated. Mine are all Elite Dark models and I think they are very well made. But then I don't work on them like the guy that was at all the armory schools. Just my opinions and experiences.


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Old 01-29-2013, 10:03   #47
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Please, don't feed the trolls
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:04   #48
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I own generation 3 G21 and G33. I recently purchased an HK45C after having extensively researching compact handguns. I paid $1,100.00 for it. A lot of money for a polymer pistol. When I hold the G21 and the HK there is a notable difference in these two weapons. The difference is in the details. I have'nt fired the HK so I have no opinion in that regard. I have fired my Glocks and have complete faith in their function. Having devoted that much money to a handgun may result in it being a range gun and safe queen. The Glocks will be my primary weapon for home protection and ccw. Glocks just instill that kind of confidence for me. After having purchased the HK I more clearly understand the devotion people have in their Glocks.
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Old 01-29-2013, 14:03   #49
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Don't get Sigarms confused with Sig-Sauer (owned by same company) as I believe the Sigarms pistols are mfg'd up in Exeter, NH and not in Germany like the Sig-Sauers. Personally I've never fired a Sigarms pistol that I cared for (SigPro, P-250 etc) but on the other hand the 226 mfg'd by Sig-Sauer is one of the finest handguns in the world IMO. Pricier than the Sigarms stuff but superior in quality. Like taking one of the SIG 551 "Classics" mfg'd by Sigarms and comparing them to one of the pre-ban SIG 550s or 551s made at SIG in Neuhausen back in the '80s...just aren't the same rifles.

On the HK note- I've always felt that nearly anything made by HK was vpgreatly overpriced. That said I think the USP is a fine pistol, a little blocky in the slide and awkward feeling to me but worked just fine- however I sold mine to fund another Glock.
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Old 01-29-2013, 14:11   #50
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Sigs cost more because of the fancy braided recoil spring!
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