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Old 01-28-2013, 17:09   #21
flw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Biltz View Post
Glocks are inexpensive because they cost less to make. Glock's have fewer parts and their manufacturing process is very efficient and cost effective. The Glock revolution was as much about the way they make guns as the guns themselves.
Its beauty is in its simplicity. Not in its complexity. i.e. the other 2 mentioned.....
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Old 01-28-2013, 17:33   #22
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Originally Posted by sciolist View Post
I don't know if there's any consistency to the mark-up across brands, but there isn't much going on inside the Glock. It is a very spartan design, and very cheaply made.

Seems like Glock's main objective is to crank out disposable guns for the police market. Given that, they've done a spectacular job in terms of performance.

Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

For what it is, the Glock is a great product.
DISPOSABLE ?
20-30k LIFE?

Respectfully i disagree

I have close to 60k rounds out of a 26.
Replaced recoil spring about every 15k, trigger spring once.
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Old 01-28-2013, 17:43   #23
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I am a Sig, Glock and Beretta armorer (haven't been to the HK course yet). Also, I have carried just about every make and model of short and long gun either for personal CCW or into harms way (Afghanistan and Iraq and some other places). For long guns, I loved the Sig rifle (552) we carried on a protective detail. I am NOT an M4 fan and would carry and "acquired" AK whenever possible. Also, the HK MP5 is tough to beat.

Now, back to the handguns...

HK pistols are well engineered, wonderful pieces of equipment. The P7 was expensive to manufacture with the squeeze cocker and all the parts. I had several over the years. When the USP first came out in the mid 90s, you could get them at reasonable prices. In the late 90s when the Euro was established and immediately was worth more than the dollar, importing HKs became more expensive almost over night. If you add in that HK would rather just deal with military and LE than civilians, there was no desire to drive prices down. I lived in Germany and went to the HK headquarters to be qualified on the MP7 and was told by the HK reps that they wished they wouldn't have to deal with civilians.

Ahhhh, Sig...my duty weapon...in the 90s, you could go to a gun show and buy a NIB Glock for $400, a NIB USP for $500 and a NIB Sig for $500. Now (before craziness) you could go to a gunshow and buy a NIB Glock for $500, a NIB USP for $900 and a NIB Sig for $900. Crazy and frustrating. I know guys at Sig. They claimed the same Euro transition price hike in 2000. Then in 2005 when the Euro soared, Sig raised prices again, claiming the import cost of guns and parts was the reason. Now that Sig is making the guns completely in Exiter, they haven't lowered any prices. Not only that, they are using MIM parts now. In my opinion, the quality of Sig has gone through the floor in the last 10 years. Ever since the Kimber guy was hired to run SIGARMS (before Sig Sauer took over SIGARMS again), Sig seems to push out more crap than ever. Scorpions, Extremes, rainbow finish, diamond plate finish and the list goes on...

Somehow in all of this, Glock has kept their pricing remarkably stable. They have the manufacturing process down and keep costs low by not having 50 variations of each pistol (ala Sig). Not only are the Glock pistols less expensive and haven't inflated in price over the years like the others, but their accessories and mags are more affordable too.

Now Beretta. I am a big fan of them too. They have also kept their prices stable and their accessories aren't as bad as HK and Sig.

Gotta appreciate Glock. They aren't perfect, but no company is.

Just my .02
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Old 01-28-2013, 17:45   #24
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I feel like some people here are comparing a Glock to a top of the line SA/DA alloy/steel frame 226....

Compare to Sig SP2022 to a Glock and you'll be surprised.

Nutnfancy holds Sig's in the highest regards including the 2022 and he loves Glocks.

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Old 01-28-2013, 17:50   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciolist View Post
I don't know if there's any consistency to the mark-up across brands, but there isn't much going on inside the Glock. It is a very spartan design, and very cheaply made.

Seems like Glock's main objective is to crank out disposable guns for the police market. Given that, they've done a spectacular job in terms of performance.

Personally, I'd rather have a $1500 Glock with lifetime durability, but I think Glock's idea of service life is more along the lines of 20-30K rounds.

For what it is, the Glock is a great product.
DISPOSABLE ?
20-30k LIFE?

Respectfully i disagree

I have close to 60k rounds out of a 26.
Replaced recoil spring about every 15k, trigger spring once.
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Old 01-28-2013, 18:09   #26
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Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name
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Old 01-28-2013, 19:18   #27
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Love my Glocks especially my new Gen 4 model 21! Just got the the Hk45 and Hk45C. Everything about theses pistols are beautiful. The engineering, the fit and finish, and the grip is about as perfect as you can get for a polymer pistol. It's the softest shooting 45 I've ever shot!! Hk's are really that good.
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Old 01-28-2013, 19:29   #28
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Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
If you don't like Sig, fine.

Don't act like an immature horse's ass and spout a bunch of nonsense.

Sigs are among the most reliable pistols ever built.
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Old 01-28-2013, 19:39   #29
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Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danysw View Post
Are you sure you don't have a lemon? ...
...
)
Do you really think he actually has a Sig or is he just trying to re-convince himself he really did make a good purchase in the Glock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2-8 Marine View Post
Thank you for your input Gaston.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
If you don't like Sig, fine.

Don't act like an immature horse's ass and spout a bunch of nonsense.

Sigs are among the most reliable pistols ever built.
Again my guess is that he is trying to convince himself he chose the right gun.


I would like to add in addition to some notable differences in the machine work needed for a Sig or an H&K as opposed to the Glock, we also need to remember that Sig and H&K manufacture a fairly wide variety of different handguns and long guns.

As was suggested in another post a decade or two ago the three were more closely priced but two have gone up much more than the third.

Maybe when Glock finally gets around to making the Glock carbine, the Glock 1911, and the small single stack 9mm Glock, Glock prices will rise across the board.
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Last edited by Bruce M; 01-28-2013 at 19:47..
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Old 01-28-2013, 21:49   #30
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Originally Posted by Hand Grenade View Post
Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
Don't know what you are reading or who you are listening to. Sigs are the no. 1 best performing handgun I have ever had. There are not many handguns made in the last 100 or so years that I have not had experience handeling and shooting. You may be a poser or a joker, but you sure don't know Sigs. Bryco?
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Old 01-28-2013, 23:43   #31
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I have ome of each - a Glock 32c, and a Sig P229. In my opinion, they are both good semi-autos, with the Glock being a "Ford", vs the Sig being a "Cadillac", in overall design. They both shoot every-time I pull the trigger, but the Sig has design features, such as all metal frame and stainless slide, that I consider much better.

Both of these pistols are "compacts", and for me, a big simple positive that favors the Glock for CC (only reason I bought Glock), is that its weight is about 1/2 pound less than the p229. They each will shoot the same three calibers (with proper barrels), so, I just have two really good pistols for my use and for my enjoyment.
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Old 01-28-2013, 23:46   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wacopolumbo View Post
I am a Sig, Glock and Beretta armorer (haven't been to the HK course yet). Also, I have carried just about every make and model of short and long gun either for personal CCW or into harms way (Afghanistan and Iraq and some other places). For long guns, I loved the Sig rifle (552) we carried on a protective detail. I am NOT an M4 fan and would carry and "acquired" AK whenever possible. Also, the HK MP5 is tough to beat.

Now, back to the handguns...

HK pistols are well engineered, wonderful pieces of equipment. The P7 was expensive to manufacture with the squeeze cocker and all the parts. I had several over the years. When the USP first came out in the mid 90s, you could get them at reasonable prices. In the late 90s when the Euro was established and immediately was worth more than the dollar, importing HKs became more expensive almost over night. If you add in that HK would rather just deal with military and LE than civilians, there was no desire to drive prices down. I lived in Germany and went to the HK headquarters to be qualified on the MP7 and was told by the HK reps that they wished they wouldn't have to deal with civilians.

Ahhhh, Sig...my duty weapon...in the 90s, you could go to a gun show and buy a NIB Glock for $400, a NIB USP for $500 and a NIB Sig for $500. Now (before craziness) you could go to a gunshow and buy a NIB Glock for $500, a NIB USP for $900 and a NIB Sig for $900. Crazy and frustrating. I know guys at Sig. They claimed the same Euro transition price hike in 2000. Then in 2005 when the Euro soared, Sig raised prices again, claiming the import cost of guns and parts was the reason. Now that Sig is making the guns completely in Exiter, they haven't lowered any prices. Not only that, they are using MIM parts now. In my opinion, the quality of Sig has gone through the floor in the last 10 years. Ever since the Kimber guy was hired to run SIGARMS (before Sig Sauer took over SIGARMS again), Sig seems to push out more crap than ever. Scorpions, Extremes, rainbow finish, diamond plate finish and the list goes on...

Somehow in all of this, Glock has kept their pricing remarkably stable. They have the manufacturing process down and keep costs low by not having 50 variations of each pistol (ala Sig). Not only are the Glock pistols less expensive and haven't inflated in price over the years like the others, but their accessories and mags are more affordable too.

Now Beretta. I am a big fan of them too. They have also kept their prices stable and their accessories aren't as bad as HK and Sig.

Gotta appreciate Glock. They aren't perfect, but no company is.

Just my .02
Great post, Waco. Thanks.
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Old 01-28-2013, 23:50   #33
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I have a P226 it's a quality weapon. I carry a Glock due to weight and my preference for striker fired vs DA/SA.
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Old 01-29-2013, 00:45   #34
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Originally Posted by AlaJack View Post
I don’t believe for a second Sigs and HK’s are “better” guns.
Then you have obviously never owned a Sig or HK.



I used to be like you until I purchased my first HK and my first Sig.

Now I only own two Glocks and my safe is full of HK's and Sigs.

Why?

Well I'll let you figure that one out....
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:16   #35
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Is a Heckler & Koch a "better" gun than a Glock? It depends entirely on what you mean. HKs are certainly just as durable and reliable, and will tend to be more accurate out of the box, and there's really no question that pretty much no major manufacturer in the industry is up to HK's quality control standards. HK controls their entire production chain, they don't outsource small parts...heck, they even make their own steel.

Does that make it a "better" gun? Not for most people. Most people won't ever shoot an HK to its limits, and of the people who would, some have chosen HK (NSW), some have chosen Glock (USASOC).

What does it matter?
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:21   #36
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Mid-1980's to retirement to present, I've spent 25 years plus carrying and shooting semi-auto pistols. 9mm and10mm and 45acp S&W, 9mm and 45acp SIG, 40S&W and 9mm and 45acp Glock. Used 1911s and Browning HP off and on over the time and Walther 9mms.

Nothing in that group compares to the durability and long life of a Glock.

The SIGs were withdrawn from service because of frame cracks at 5000 rounds. Sounds like a Beretta story. The Smiths would break a trigger rebound spring just about the time you thought one might last. (the little two prong flat bent copper colored spring). The Smith 45 unlocked too fast while the pressure was off and ripped rims off the cases. CLEAN it would not extract the first few shots fired. You had to go to training, clean it, and then shoot a couple magazines or it would not work. The P220 would only work with one magic overall length of the rounds. Longer or shorter, they would not feed. Think hardball length in a defensive pistol.

As to prices, Glock sells a lot of guns on a small profit margin. The others sell fewer guns and try to get a bigger profit per unit. It is whatever your business model wants.

As to useage, police and military units using SIG, HK, and Beretta did not dent Glocks 80% share of the police market. The only thing that cut it to 65-70% is the Springfield and S&W clones nearly given to PDs free.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:34   #37
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I'm not real big on the new Sigs built in the States, but they are quality pistols.

As far as HK is concerned, I feel overall quality and fit and finish certainly exceeds Glock by a good amount.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:36   #38
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You keep shooting your overpriced and mile high bore axis Sig. Make sure your well trained to clear pistol jams. I'll keep shooting perfection out of my Glock.
Do us all a big favor and get lost...

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Old 01-29-2013, 06:44   #39
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I think a large part of the reason is parts count. The Glock has something like 34 parts, while Sigs and HKs have around 77-79. More material, machining and fitting.
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:49   #40
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Originally Posted by GruGrux515 View Post
Why the price difference between fruit of the loom and Calvin Klein? They all get holes in the crotch and sh it stains in the rear but people are willing to pay the difference for the name
Your analogy is about as classless and wrong as your conclusion. There IS a distinct difference in quality between Glock, HK and Sig; The latter two being made to higher standards. I own, have owned and handled many HK, Sigs and Glocks in my time (66 yrs) and anyone who's experienced them knows that difference. Glock is an excellent gun for what it is. But there is no denying that HK and Sig are better made. People don't buy HK, Sig or even Glock simply for the name, but because of the atributes the name implies, quality, reliability, endurence, dependability, etc they all have their strong points. You may know something about underwear, but Sig and HK's not so much.
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