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Old 01-29-2013, 14:21   #51
moonwilson
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My only problem with H&K besides the price is that the trigger on every polymer-framed one I've handled has suuuuucked. Super heavy, creepy and gritty. That said, I still want one. I'm not sure I $1,100 want one though. SIGs tend to have great triggers, and I find the DA/SA transition to be a total non-issue. Glock triggers are fine once they get broken in a bit.

H&Ks have a great "feel" to them. When you hold an H&K, you know you're holding a serious weapon. They're rock solid. The Gen4 Glocks have the same sort of feel to me, where the earlier generations did not. Earlier Glocks feel "looser". Maybe it's just because my older generation Glocks have been shot more and have loosened up a bit. It's hard to remember what a gun you've used for a while felt like when it was new. I'd much rather have 2 Glocks than 1 H&K for my money.
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Old 01-29-2013, 14:58   #52
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I have nothing to add save my personal experience with Glocks, Sigs, XDs, Walthers, Berettas and a Seecamp.

Glocks are wonderful tools.

But I ENJOY the Sigs, XD, Walthers and Berettas. The Seecamp...well, it fills a niche....<ggggg>
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Old 01-29-2013, 15:07   #53
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Your analogy is about as classless and wrong as your conclusion. There IS a distinct difference in quality between Glock, HK and Sig; The latter two being made to higher standards. I own, have owned and handled many HK, Sigs and Glocks in my time (66 yrs) and anyone who's experienced them knows that difference. Glock is an excellent gun for what it is. But there is no denying that HK and Sig are better made. People don't buy HK, Sig or even Glock simply for the name, but because of the atributes the name implies, quality, reliability, endurence, dependability, etc they all have their strong points. You may know something about underwear, but Sig and HK's not so much.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:22   #54
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I owned 3 Sig pistols in the early 90's. Great guns... The 226 was my main range gun, and had close to 50K rounds through it without any problem. I decided to get out of guns when my first son was born. Not because I was afraid having guns and a young child in the same household, but because it made my wife extremely uncomfortable... In retrospect, I should have stored them at a friend's place instead of selling off everything.... Fast forward to present day, the only Sig I have is a railed 229 made in Exeter. I would trade that for my old one (non-railed) in a heart beat.

I don't know exactly how many HK's I have, but a bunch. I like their designs, the quality, and the exclusivity - an average street thug doesn't usually carry an HK, putting it badly.

Glocks are functional, reliable, ugly as h***. They have crossed the threshold of being well made guns. Anything beyond a Glock is diminishing returns on your money. But hey, I don't mind spending the money, like a lot of folks here.

Lastly, even though Sigs and HK's are better made than Glocks in my opinion, there is actually a lot of science that goes into determining the price points of guns, or any product. The cost of producing them is almost irrelevant.

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Old 01-30-2013, 13:24   #55
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Are you new to Glocks? Durability is one of the things they are best known for. I wasn't aware that there were even people who thought they didn't have "lifetime durability" or were "disposable" but I can tell you, you don't know much about Glocks or their history.

My Production 34 lasted 2 years before the slide and frame failed. To me, that's a disposable gun. To a cop who shoots 30K rounds in his entire career maybe it's a lifetime gun.

I love the 34. Glock replaced my slide and frame. I'm not complaining - just didn't realize the durability limitations at the outset. The 34 works better for me than the CZ, XDm or M&P.

My basic point is that I personally would prefer a more durable gun at a higher cost. It took me almost a year to get the first 34 dialed in. Granted, I know where the likely problem areas are now, so that process is much easier.

I donít expect a Glock to stand up to a decade of 30K round years, but half of that would be nice.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:49   #56
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I currently own examples of all 3. Carried the Hk on duty before we switched to Glock. As far as the differences between glock and Hk they are very similar. The Hk was a little beefier (less frame flex) different RSA and hammer fired. Does that make Hk better and demand the price? Not in the least bit. We dumped the platform and went to Glock for a reason. Price was probably the biggest factor as glock also supplied Safariland holsters, mag pouches and Surefire tac lights as part of the deal. I can honestly tell you though that qual scores went up across the board and we don't have nearly the problems had with Hk. Sig on the other hand is a different beast. A lot of work goes into production such as machine work and hand finishing not needed on the other 2. They make a fine firearm worth a few extra bucks.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:27   #57
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Well you need to shoot them side by side,
I did, now most of my glocks are gone,
Dont get me wrong, i like my glocks,
But the hk and sig are better engineered and accurate.

Hk excels at everything they make
So you pay for quality,
If glock is so perfect, why is there an entire industry dedicated
To making them more perfect?
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:37   #58
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How are sigs and HKs perfect?

I have sold my sig and hks. I do not regret it one bit.

the sig never would run right without tons of lube, sent back three times and got tired of the CS

the HK ran right out of the box and shot very nice but the glock was not much different other than then SA/DA.

the glock is also much lighter and easier to tote around vs the block slides of the usp and the sig 226 was extremely bulky, I cannot believe people even carry these as duty weapons.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:38   #59
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SIG quality? Buy a Mosquito .22LR and then tell me about it. I stupidly bought one. After two trips to the factory, I do not recall it every going one full magazine without failing to fire, feed, or eject at least once.

Glock quality? The output of two major companies is devoted to making their own copies of the Glock. Somehow that indicates they are sufficiently perfect to be copied to death. The combination of Glock, S&W's M&P line, and Springfield's Croatia made striker fired copies is probably 98% of the full size pistols being sold today of the M26/Shield/XDs size and bigger.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:59   #60
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Old 01-30-2013, 17:35   #61
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Sigs are overpriced...overrated...overhyped pieces of junk! They have a ridiculous high bore axis and you have to spray it with rust-o-leum every day or it will rust just by looking at it. In my experience they are the most inaccurate and most unreliable pistols. Sigs will practically fall apart in water.

Between a Sig and Bryco I will take the Bryco. The DEA rejected Sig pistols and practically called them junk. Dutch government completely cancelled it's order of tens of thousands of Sig pistols because they would completely jam on the first magazine out of the box. You only paying for the name when you buy a Sig.
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Old 01-30-2013, 17:40   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montblanc View Post
How are sigs and HKs perfect?

.


Neither advertise "perfection" like glock does.
Now i do not feel under armed with either.
But imho,
the HK and Sigs are built to a higher standard, and better materials, fit/finish and quality.
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Old 01-30-2013, 17:50   #63
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I love my Glocks , dont get me wrong but until you shoot and HK 45 for example ,you can then understand why HK cost what they do.
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Old 01-30-2013, 18:00   #64
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Same thing here, I love my Glock and carry it every day, for sure is the most reliable gun in the world but when I shoot my Sig P226 Tacops is when know why the price difference.
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Old 01-30-2013, 18:01   #65
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I have shot an HK45 but its nothing special.

Variety is the spice of life to each his own.

I enjoy Glocks due to the initial price, magazine price and reliability.
they are also lightweight and I can do a full detail strip with ease.
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Old 01-30-2013, 18:12   #66
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SIG quality? Buy a Mosquito .22LR and then tell me about it. I stupidly bought one. After two trips to the factory, I do not recall it every going one full magazine without failing to fire, feed, or eject at least once.

Glock quality? The output of two major companies is devoted to making their own copies of the Glock. Somehow that indicates they are sufficiently perfect to be copied to death. The combination of Glock, S&W's M&P line, and Springfield's Croatia made striker fired copies is probably 98% of the full size pistols being sold today of the M26/Shield/XDs size and bigger.

Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?

You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree?

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be.

A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.

Do you have any other good info for me?
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Old 01-30-2013, 18:15   #67
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Neither advertise "perfection" like glock does.
Now i do not feel under armed with either.
But imho,
the HK and Sigs are built to a higher standard, and better materials, fit/finish and quality.
You've got that right
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Old 01-30-2013, 19:13   #68
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When it comes to doing what they do, propelling a slug at a target, they're pretty close. The difference is in the companies philosophy and culture. Imagine a design staff meeting:

Case 1), Glock:
Design Engineer: We've finished redesigning the frame rails. They work ok, but the plating seems to flake off.
Chief Engineer: Well they work ok, good enough. Ship it.

Case 2). HK:
Design Engineer: We've finished redesigning the frame rails. They work ok, but the plating seems to flake off.
Chief Engineer: While it may be good enough, it's not correct. Back to work.

I can see that meeting happening regarding other issues too, such as warped dust covers (and the warped accessory rail that goes with them), etc. The kind of stuff that gets rationalized by fans as not affecting function would never be tolerated by SIG or HK, and people are willing to pay a premium for correctness over good enough.

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Old 01-30-2013, 20:36   #69
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Bac the s&w sigma was so similar to glock that glock sued them and won lol. People can say what they want about fit and finish our whatever. Glock is a workhorse and I'd put its reliability up against any hk or sig or there. It's like comparing the fit and finish of an f150 and a Mercedes. Obviously the Mercedes is nicer and maybe tighter built... It's still not surviving the abuse the Ford would.

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Old 01-30-2013, 20:44   #70
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Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?
You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree?

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be. A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.

Do you have any other good info for me?



Naw, really not. Unless its raining or really cold, I don't have time for 75,000 posts. Get a life.

But wait, it said SIG on the Mosquito, came in a SIG box, and the NH factory paid to get it back twice to try to fix. That's not SIG? Oh, just something they put their name on? (I have carried SIGs, a P226 and a P220. Both were OK, but not anything special. Their design is ancient from the 1970 era Browning design that barely sold and the bore line is so high above your hand the P220 especially is no real fun to shoot a lot in one day.)

But wait more. The S&W M&P and the Croatian guns are plastic bottomed, steel railed, striker fired, by a drawbar trigger, hand guns. Cosmetics and some engineering differ from Glock, but most were a step backwards, not forwards. Unless the ass end of the striker sticking out the rear of the slide really is an inovation. Oh, Smiths can have a safety. Not a step forward. For all practical purposes, they are copies of the Glock design idea.

But wait, what would I know. Barely 100 posts in the midst of internet genius. Some day I have to figure out quoting.

But wait, I gotta have a picture to be InterKool. I rate me:

Yes I am making fun of you.

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Old 01-30-2013, 20:46   #71
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Bac the s&w sigma was so similar to glock that glock sued them and won lol. People can say what they want about fit and finish our whatever. Glock is a workhorse and I'd put its reliability up against any hk or sig or there. It's like comparing the fit and finish of an f150 and a Mercedes. Obviously the Mercedes is nicer and maybe tighter built... It's still not surviving the abuse the Ford would.

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Yeah, the Sigma was for sure. I've got one myself.

I was speaking of the M&P and XD. That post was such a load of uneducated nonsense that I felt compelled to reply.

I also never said anything about the reliability, though I think I'd give HK and Sig a slight advantage over the last couple of years, wouldn't you?

A Glock's reliability is WAY overstated. They are no more reliable than a good 90% of the mainstream pistols on the market today. The problem is that too many here have no experience with much of anything else. Decades ago, Glock had a distinct reliability advantage over the competition. That's clearly not the case these days.

Some people need to wake up, get their head out of their ass. and realize that.
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Old 01-30-2013, 20:58   #72
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Damn, I guess you didn't realize that Sig doesn't even make the Mosquito, did you?
You're basing your opinion of a stellar company like Sig Sauer on a pot metal rimfire built by an airsoft company? That's like basing your opinion of Walther on the P22. Yeah, I'd say you need to learn a thing or two, wouldn't you agree?

Also, the M&P and especially the XD are about as different from Glock as another striker fired polymer pistol can be. A copy of Glock? The XD? Get real. I'm not sure which one of your buds told you that, but they're totally different pistols.

Do you have any other good info for me?



Naw, really not. Unless its raining or really cold, I don't have time for 75,000 posts. Get a life.

But wait, it said SIG on the Mosquito, came in a SIG box, and the NH factory paid to get it back twice to try to fix. That's not SIG? Oh, just something they put their name on? (I have carried SIGs, a P226 and a P220. Both were OK, but not anything special. Their design is ancient from the 1970 era Browning design that barely sold and the bore line is so high above your hand the P220 especially is no real fun to shoot a lot in one day.)

But wait more. The S&W M&P and the Croatian guns are plastic bottomed, steel railed, striker fired, by a drawbar trigger, hand guns. Cosmetics and some engineering differ from Glock, but most were a step backwards, not forwards. Unless the ass end of the striker sticking out the rear of the slide really is an inovation. Oh, Smiths can have a safety. Not a step forward. For all practical purposes, they are copies of the Glock design idea.

But wait, what would I know. Barely 100 posts in the midst of internet genius. Some day I have to figure out quoting.

But wait, I gotta have a picture to be InterKool. I rate me:

Yes I am making fun of you.

I have a great life, you?

I don't base anything on post count. I was basing my response solely on the complete cluelessness of your post.

I just thought I'd give you a bit of an education, so you could make a little more sense going forward.

Understood?

Actually, you probably don't
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Old 01-30-2013, 21:02   #73
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But wait, what would I know.
Apparently not too much...

So I guess you think Glock was the first striker fire design? How about the first polymer pistol?

Maybe they did the copying, no?

By the way, I don't think either the M&P or the XD is a step backwards. They are a step forwards, which Glock is now reacting to by releasing the Gen 4.
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Old 01-31-2013, 17:08   #74
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A Glock's reliability is WAY overstated. They are no more reliable than a good 90% of the mainstream pistols on the market today. The problem is that too many here have no experience with much of anything else. Decades ago, Glock had a distinct reliability advantage over the competition. That's clearly not the case these days.
Agreed, my G19 is from 1989. The good old days.
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Old 01-31-2013, 17:46   #75
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Apparently not too much...

So I guess you think Glock was the first striker fire design? How about the first polymer pistol?

Maybe they did the copying, no?

By the way, I don't think either the M&P or the XD is a step backwards. They are a step forwards, which Glock is now reacting to by releasing the Gen 4.
The M&P and xd are a step forward in ergonomics. They will not last as long as the glock will 10000 rounds later though. Glock absolutely has its shortcomings and NO gun is 100% reliable but I would absolutely stand behind Glock over any other brand out there. Theyre strong and theyre simple. I would also say that Sig hasnt improved anything. Their best guns were the german made ones (that they do still offer). Their quality went downhill when they started building guns in NH. My only Sig is a p250. Granted its the cheapest gun they make but in all honesty its a piece of crap. Its been back to Sig twice for firing out of battery. The first time it blew out the extractor and the second time it cracked the frame. It was cheap but not much cheaper then a Glock at gssf pricing. Completely unsold me on Sig and im in the process of putting like 2000+ rounds through it to restore my faith because my girl actually likes to shoot the damn thing. If it werent for that it would be sold. And IMO the toughest auto S&W ever made was the Sigma lol. I would buy one if I found one cheap enough.
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