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Old 02-05-2013, 14:43   #41
Glock36shooter
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Originally Posted by scottz0369 View Post
I can't make sense of this paragraph, especially the first two sentances. I've also never watched Family Guy, so I'm ignorant of the reference. If you're making the point that the original message was corrupted, I would disagree.
You would be incorrect. We have people on this very forum that submit that it was Jesus that created Heaven and Earth because he was "The Word" and John says it was the word in the beginning and not the Father. These are passages that you claim now in hindsight give you a more clear perspective of the bible as a whole. When really it twists and alters a religion that existed prior to Christianity. In short it's basically saying "Here... we fixed your religion and made sense of it by injecting our own."

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I agree with the first four sentences to a degree. However, you've made a blanket statement that can't possibly account for the motivations of everyone that attends church.
The first four sentences set up my point as not being a blanket statement. I never said every single Christian does X Y or Z. I said many.


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You mention how we (since I'm apparently included in that statement) focus solely on homosexuality, while ignoring other sins. That's simply not true.
"They" refers to the "MANY" that were previously mentioned. If you would like to include yourself in that group fine. But if it doesn't apply to you personally then you aren't a part of the "Many" that it does. However... lots of Christians say that don't they... "I'm not like that... I'm the RIGHT kind of Christian." when in reality they're just like the poor examples... so I guess we'll have to just take your word that you go about the things the "Right" way.

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The NT contains only periphrial references to homosexuality, and in the context of other sins - they're all treated with equal weight. This seems to be a hot topic for you. At the church I attend, we talk about sin in all forms, and homosexuality, if it is brought up, is in the context of other sins. It seems like you're cherry-picking scriptures much in the same way you appear to detest Christians for doing. Sounds hypocritical to me.
I don't hold the bible up as my guide to life... I can pick it apart however I like. I don't present it as the inerrant word of God Almighty. So I absolutely can dismantle it and illustrate what is junk and what is not. But let's continue to discuss your view of how homosexuality is presented in the church. The basis for it being a sin is Leviticus. This is where God handed the Israelites laws to keep. Homosexuality (at least among men) is declared as an abomination in Lev18. The very next chapter it says "19 You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you."

Yet no one really cares about that one. We have half a nation losing their minds over Gay Marriage MOSTLY because of it being a religious issue... but no one seems to be worrying about mixing materials with their clothing. And God said to keep his statutes.. not some of them, not the ones you like. you CANNOT tell me that many and quite possibly a majority of Christians don't cherry pick what they want to believe out of that book. We get it... you're not like that... good for you. Many of your brothers and sisters are however.

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You're incorrect regarding Job. In a nutshell, Satan said that the only reason Job was faithful was because he was blessed materially (money, property, a family, etc), and without those material blessings, he would curse God. He questioned God, he agonized over his situation, but did not curse him.
You are proving my point for me. The word in Hebrew that is translated to "Curse" is Barak {baw-rak'}. Which in a positive context means to bless and or kneel before, but in a negative context means to dismiss or send away in either the heart or mind. It is a sending away or farewell too...

Satan told God Job would dismiss him were his gifts taken away.

"12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?

13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaints;

14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.

17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?

19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."

And Satan was right.

Quote:
Brother, I question God but still have faith, and I'm not alone in that.
"Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."

"Romans 9: 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

It's not wise to question God. You are his creation and your lot is your lot. Don't mistake me for someone that doesn't understand the bible.

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I never said I understand things better than others, only in hindsight, the picture is clearer. You don't have to look far for examples of what was considered correct in the past to be incorrect in any area of human's quest for knowledge.
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Please elaborate.

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To be clear, I'm no smarter than the next guy. I read and research available information and make decisions based on my imperfect knowledge and understanding, just like everyone else. I would encourage you not to believe me, and research it for yourself -- follow the evidence where it leads. It's certainly possible that you'll reach a different conclusion. If you've done the work without presupposition, I'm OK with you having a different conclusion -- it's yours to have.
I hold the book responsible for what it says. Not for what I'd like to believe it says.

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That lead to investigating apologetics, historcal context, and archeology which led me to the conclusion over several years that the Bible is accurate as stated.
But it isn't. There are many errors and contradictions throughout the bible.

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Are there things in the Bible I wish weren't there? Yep.
I'd be happy if the entire thing never existed.

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this debate has been going on for at least two centuries, and isn't likely to be settled here on GT in 2013.
Centuries? 1813? A lot longer than that.

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Old 02-05-2013, 16:15   #42
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Originally Posted by scottz0369 View Post
To elaborate, there's no record in the NT of Mary having a brother, only a sister. If that is the case, then Marys husband would be the "son" of her father as inheritance at the time flowed through the male heirs.
Ok, but why mention Joseph the way he was mentioned in *that* genealogy? That's the point that to me makes it not a "common sense" matter. It states "Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary", not "Jacob begat Mary the wife of Joseph", in the only genealogy that even mentions Mary.

The second wording, to me, would be common sense "this is Mary's genealogy". The way it is worded it reads as Joseph, not Mary - and it would, as you noted, require something external to interpret the way it is worded as 'That's Mary's genealogy'. I've seen religious sites that claim that *both* are actually through Joseph, despite the apparent contradiction, and I have also seen religious sites that claim one is through Mary, the other through Joseph.

I guess what I'm finally getting at here is, if it's the word of a deity that intends to have the message spread far and wide, and it is inspired work, why would it require detailed knowledge not evidently present in the document itself to resolve something like that? Which may be more or less applicable to any particular Christian theology depending on whether or not and to what extent that particular theology holds or requires that the Bible be considered inerrant, etc. Of course, I don't know your personal position on that.
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Old 02-05-2013, 17:31   #43
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
You would be incorrect. We have people on this very forum that submit that it was Jesus that created Heaven and Earth because he was "The Word" and John says it was the word in the beginning and not the Father. These are passages that you claim now in hindsight give you a more clear perspective of the bible as a whole. When really it twists and alters a religion that existed prior to Christianity. In short it's basically saying "Here... we fixed your religion and made sense of it by injecting our own."



The first four sentences set up my point as not being a blanket statement. I never said every single Christian does X Y or Z. I said many.

******* How many then? Some? Most? 50%? *******




"They" refers to the "MANY" that were previously mentioned. If you would like to include yourself in that group fine. But if it doesn't apply to you personally then you aren't a part of the "Many" that it does. However... lots of Christians say that don't they... "I'm not like that... I'm the RIGHT kind of Christian." when in reality they're just like the poor examples... so I guess we'll have to just take your word that you go about the things the "Right" way.

********Never said I was right. I shared my interpretation. Its within the realm of possibility that I'm incorrect in my interpretation.*******



I don't hold the bible up as my guide to life... I can pick it apart however I like. I don't present it as the inerrant word of God Almighty. So I absolutely can dismantle it and illustrate what is junk and what is not. But let's continue to discuss your view of how homosexuality is presented in the church. The basis for it being a sin is Leviticus. This is where God handed the Israelites laws to keep. Homosexuality (at least among men) is declared as an abomination in Lev18. The very next chapter it says "19 You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you."

Yet no one really cares about that one. We have half a nation losing their minds over Gay Marriage MOSTLY because of it being a religious issue... but no one seems to be worrying about mixing materials with their clothing. And God said to keep his statutes.. not some of them, not the ones you like. you CANNOT tell me that many and quite possibly a majority of Christians don't cherry pick what they want to believe out of that book. We get it... you're not like that... good for you. Many of your brothers and sisters are however.




You are proving my point for me. The word in Hebrew that is translated to "Curse" is Barak {baw-rak'}. Which in a positive context means to bless and or kneel before, but in a negative context means to dismiss or send away in either the heart or mind. It is a sending away or farewell too...

Satan told God Job would dismiss him were his gifts taken away.

"12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?

13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaints;

14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.

17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?

19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."

And Satan was right.



"Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."

"Romans 9: 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

It's not wise to question God. You are his creation and your lot is your lot. Don't mistake me for someone that doesn't understand the bible.

*******If it's time to send out warnings, don't mistake me for someone who is intimidated by a post on the internet. Glad we cleared that up.
Also, thanks for the tip re:questioning God. However, as a person who rejects the existence of God, you're unqualified to diciple me.********


I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Please elaborate.

*******In hindsight, Columbus was wrong. He didn't land in India. Prevailing wisdom at the time was wrong. The earth is round. We can go beck to prophecy in the OT to see how it was fulfilled in ways that are difficult to do in real time******



I hold the book responsible for what it says. Not for what I'd like to believe it says.

*******Thats reasonable, but I submit that when context isn't considered, the meaning is easily misinterpreted.*******



But it isn't. There are many errors and contradictions throughout the bible. '

*******Or errors in interpretation.*****


I'd be happy if the entire thing never existed.

******You've made that clear, but it isn't the case.*****



Centuries? 1813? A lot longer than that.
***Sorry, I misspoke. I should have said millennia. This should serve as verification that I'm fallible.******


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Old 02-05-2013, 17:33   #44
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Wow, sorry about the quoting, I used the multi function on the mobile app, and this is not what I expected. Ill delete if possible.

Break
Couldn't delete, I added ***** before and after my comments.
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Old 02-05-2013, 18:20   #45
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... Much like us, it seems that they got out of the scripture what they wanted to get, not what it says...
Unless you speak and read Hebrew you don't have any idea what the OT actually states. They did and some still do. Christianity has some very positive points as far as religions go but that doesn't make it any less a highjacking of Judaism.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:30   #46
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******* How many then? Some? Most? 50%? *******
Hard to nail that one down. It would appear that a majority of Christians cherry pick what they'd like to believe since most believe homosexuality to be a sin and don't seem to care about the mixing of their garment materials. However most christians would rather eat hot coals than admit that they cherry pick. Including you as I'm willing to bet you wear multiple materials in one outfit and you have admitted to questioning God. The main point I am getting at is that a large number of Christians listen to about half of what's in the bible and say "It's ok... I'll just ask for forgiveness and it's all good." Yet many love to harp on sins that others are committing.


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*******If it's time to send out warnings, don't mistake me for someone who is intimidated by a post on the internet. Glad we cleared that up.
THAT is your reply to what I wrote? That's all you got? I wasn't issuing you a warning. I could care less if you misread Job or if you blatantly disregard God's warnings not to question him. My point is that you feel like you have this better understanding of scripture than the ancient people that wrote it because of the gift of hindsight through the NT. When really the NT is a corruption of the Israelites religion.

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Also, thanks for the tip re:questioning God. However, as a person who rejects the existence of God, you're unqualified to diciple me.********
LOL, I would tend to think I know more about the bible than some that would claim to be qualified. I used to be a Christian. I was consumed with studying the bible and wanted to learn as much as I possibly could about it. About its origins, the origins of the people that wrote it, their culture, their history, the state of affairs in the world at that time and the cultures that surrounded or influenced them. It never made sense to me as a child that we came from cave men (What I called our early ancestors when I was little) Yet the first of us could speak complex language and write and use tools and make garments. Even as a child the stories didn't work. So I was obsessed with reconciling them. The more I came to KNOW... the less I BELIEVED. The more I learned the more I began to realize that Christianity and Judaism are just as false as Islam and other archaic ancient mythologies. Keep studying but look PAST the bible. Don't study just to confirm what you believe... when you find out the story of Eden was just the Babylonian creation myth but twisted to serve the Israelites purpose, or that the Flood tale originated in Sumeria, Or that Abraham was a Mesopotamian madman, or that Deuteronomy WASN'T a part of the original Torah, maybe you'll begin to question the truth of some of the tales.

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*******In hindsight, Columbus was wrong. He didn't land in India. Prevailing wisdom at the time was wrong. The earth is round. We can go beck to prophecy in the OT to see how it was fulfilled in ways that are difficult to do in real time******
You can twist prophecy to make it fit with many things. Doesn't make it true. And if you're saying that hindsight allows you to understand the Israelites religion better than they... that's fairly arrogant. Especially when you follow the portion of the bible that corrupts that original religion.


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*******Thats reasonable, but I submit that when context isn't considered, the meaning is easily misinterpreted.*******
That's an excuse. please point out where I have ignored context.


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*******Or errors in interpretation.*****
Please... point out these errors. We can't wait to hear how your understanding of scripture is more clear than what the book actually says.
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:00   #47
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A question on the gospels and dating -

I have read that most people think that Mark is the oldest gospel. Others claims that Matthew may have written and earlier source that is lost, but that both Matthew and Mark used. however, it seems widely believed that Mark wrote two endings to his gospel, and the first ending, possibly the earliest ending of all, ended quite differently that the other gospels.

What would be a explanation, or possible explanation for this?
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:24   #48
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Theologists and linguists aside. I would have to believe that most casual students of the bible easily notice many contradictions. Of course if understanding the bible requires a learned scholar or clergyman to sort through these "rough" areas then God should have just left it in Latin. It was probably less confusing when somebody just told you what the bible said and what it meant.

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Old 02-07-2013, 07:05   #49
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Theologists and linguists aside. I would have to believe that most casual students of the bible easily notice many contradictions. Of course if understanding the bible requires a learned scholar or clergyman to sort through these "rough" areas then God should have just left it in Latin. It was probably less confusing when somebody just told you what the bible said and what it meant.

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All of us develop a world view. When my world view was secular I failed at life. When I became a believer and studied the Bible as a message from God, I excelled. I realized that the foundation of wisdom and faith from the Bible gave me an advantage.

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:12   #50
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A question on the gospels and dating -

I have read that most people think that Mark is the oldest gospel. Others claims that Matthew may have written and earlier source that is lost, but that both Matthew and Mark used. however, it seems widely believed that Mark wrote two endings to his gospel, and the first ending, possibly the earliest ending of all, ended quite differently that the other gospels.

What would be a explanation, or possible explanation for this?
The ending in the book of Mark is not present in the oldest manuscripts. It is therefore logical to assume that some pious monk or otherwise edited the book and added the ending. This is a rare occurrence. There are few of these. If a person takes a cue from the Bible and compares the parallel texts there is no problem determining what the message of the Bible is. One caution written in the Bible is to withhold judgment unless there are at least two or three witnesses.

Reading the Bible without the assistance of the Holy Spirit is futile anyway because spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

So in other words those who have read the Bible with the intent to deride it and God are not going to understand the spiritual message it contains.
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Old 02-07-2013, 13:56   #51
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So the bible only makes sense to those who unquestionably believe in it? Interesting notion. So anybody that admits the bible has contradictions is also admitting they are are not touched by the holy spirit. Good way to prevent people from questioning isnt it?

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Old 02-07-2013, 14:19   #52
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So the bible only makes sense to those who unquestionably believe in it? Interesting notion. So anybody that admits the bible has contradictions is also admitting they are are not touched by the holy spirit. Good way to prevent people from questioning isnt it?
It is convenient that's for sure.
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Old 02-07-2013, 14:30   #53
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In the minds of the religious, "discernment" is considered to be more laudible than logic and reason, endowing them with an almost Orwellian ability to deny the truth.
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Old 02-07-2013, 16:10   #54
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So the bible only makes sense to those who unquestionably believe in it? Interesting notion. So anybody that admits the bible has contradictions is also admitting they are are not touched by the holy spirit. Good way to prevent people from questioning isnt it?

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I assume that since you did not quote me that this twisted mess is your interpretation of what I posted. Here are the answers to your questions.

1. The Bible only makes sense to those who let God lead them to understand it.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

2. It is only logical that changes from the oldest manuscripts are changes in some way. There are a few of these, but the Bible is actually pretty much unchanged for the most part.

3. if you are seeking to disprove the existence of God by attacking the Bible, it has withstood the test of time. Much smarter people tan you have failed to do this.
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Old 02-07-2013, 18:39   #55
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I'm not trying dissprove the existence of anything. And I appreciate you not trying to dissprove my point. Yes the bible has stood the test of time and all it took was multiple schisms and centuries of torturing and murdering those who didn't agree with it. Lots of people more in touch with the Holy Spirit then you have attempted to explain the contradictions and inherent short comings and failed.

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Old 02-07-2013, 18:47   #56
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And it sort of silly to quote the bible since according to you I can't understand it. Your logic is akin to me buying a book on how to read Japanese that is written only in Japanese. How can I get the message of the bible if understanding the bible is a prerequisite to doing so? Makes for horrible recruitment literature.

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Old 02-07-2013, 20:40   #57
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I'm not trying dissprove the existence of anything. And I appreciate you not trying to dissprove my point. Yes the bible has stood the test of time and all it took was multiple schisms and centuries of torturing and murdering those who didn't agree with it. Lots of people more in touch with the Holy Spirit then you have attempted to explain the contradictions and inherent short comings and failed.

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Correction: The Bible gives no leeway for Christian believers to kill based on belief or unbelief. Those who did so were not in harmony with Jesus teaching and therefore not led by the Spirit to kill. That is the evil side that is responsible for this.

This just proves that the Bible correctly predicted that men would do all manner of evil in the name of The Lord.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
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Old 02-07-2013, 20:44   #58
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Originally Posted by Gills63 View Post
And it sort of silly to quote the bible since according to you I can't understand it. Your logic is akin to me buying a book on how to read Japanese that is written only in Japanese. How can I get the message of the bible if understanding the bible is a prerequisite to doing so? Makes for horrible recruitment literature.

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Yes, you again missed the point that it is the Spirit of God that gives understanding, not your own wisdom.

The Holy Spirit is not limited by your understanding. If you wish to understand Truth you must ask God for understanding.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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Old 02-07-2013, 20:56   #59
Vic Hays
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Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luke 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:39   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gills63 View Post
And it sort of silly to quote the bible since according to you I can't understand it. Your logic is akin to me buying a book on how to read Japanese that is written only in Japanese. How can I get the message of the bible if understanding the bible is a prerequisite to doing so? Makes for horrible recruitment literature.

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When pressed Christians like Vic can only resort to quoting the Bible. It is the only "evidence" they have. It's like referencing the "Night Before Christmas" poem as proof of Santa.
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