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Old 02-08-2013, 19:48   #21
Arc Angel
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First, I have found high quality 22 LR ammo like CCI, 'Stingers' to be highly reliable. Second, many countries (America included) arm, or have armed, their assassins with 22 LR pistols; some of which were setup to use low power cartridges! Third, I'm able to rapid fire every shot from a 10 round 22LR magazine inside a 6 inch circle at 10 to 12 yards. I can, also, do the same thing into a 12 inch circle at 25 yards. Finally, if I had to use a 22 LR as a self-defense weapon I'd fire every shot at the target's head.

As an aside, all of my 22 LR pistols have, at least, a six inch barrel; but a four or five inch barrel would, still, be fine with me.
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Old 02-08-2013, 23:05   #22
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First, I have found high quality 22 LR ammo like CCI, 'Stingers' to be highly reliable. Second, many countries (America included) arm, or have armed, their assassins with 22 LR pistols; some of which were setup to use low power cartridges! Third, I'm able to rapid fire every shot from a 10 round 22LR magazine inside a 6 inch circle at 10 to 12 yards. I can, also, do the same thing into a 12 inch circle at 25 yards. Finally, if I had to use a 22 LR as a self-defense weapon I'd fire every shot at the target's head.

As an aside, all of my 22 LR pistols have, at least, a six inch barrel; but a four or five inch barrel would, still, be fine with me.
Which will work fine if your target isn't moving & you can catch him in ambush to deliver those shots. Please, a SD situation is NOT an assination. If you can NOT make headshots on demand, a 22lr is an absolute, 100% poor choice for a SD round.
Just as an example; Our club just allowed 22lr catagory in the bi-monthly IDPA matches. I see few headshots & not all body shots hit the 8" scoring area, so regardless of how fast or easy they are to shoot, if you are not making headshots & your attacker is armed with a more potent firearm, you'll likely end up dead before he does.
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:24   #23
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Which will work fine if your target isn't moving & you can catch him in ambush to deliver those shots.
Do you really, truly, understand the circumstances under which most pistol gunfights occur? I would suggest that you don't.

Most CQB targets are NOT moving or, at least, not significantly so. (The last time I engaged a room full of moving pistol targets I was at a, 'Zombie Shoot'; and THAT ain't real life.) If your target is genuinely moving then it's going to be as difficult for him to hit you as it is, or might be, the other way around.

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Please, a SD situation is NOT an assination. (SIC) If you can NOT make headshots on demand, a 22lr is an absolute, 100% poor choice for a SD round.
OK, far be it from me to push someone beyond their own level of personal skill.

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Just as an example; Our club just allowed 22lr catagory in the bi-monthly IDPA matches. I see few headshots & not all body shots hit the 8" scoring area, so regardless of how fast or easy they are to shoot, if you are not making headshots & your attacker is armed with a more potent firearm, you'll likely end up dead before he does.
My club, too! I'm presently shopping for extra magazines and a decent holster for a Smith & Wesson Model 41. Actually, I'm not disagreeing with you. 22 LR, especially out of a 4 or 5 inch barrel is anemic, and far from ideal for use as a self-defense cartridge; BUT, that is not to say that 22 LR isn't viable and, in the proper hands, can't be used well. The right bullet and the right gun CAN be made to work.

Three final things: One, I was once accidentally hit in the ankle by an ND from a 22 LR pistol. That little bullet only grazed the bone; and, when it did, it knocked me clean off my feet.

Two, 22 LR and 25 ACP have been reported to be the two most common cartridges used in street gunfights and the subsequent deaths these fights regularly cause.

Three, although I HAVE kept a 22 LR pistol in the bedroom for home defense, I don't carry 22 LR for self-defense. I carry 45 ACP, and 9 x 19mm just like everyone else.

All of which should tell you that: Those who can, do; and those who can't, shouldn't. An, at least, competent gunman with a 22 LR pistol is NOT unarmed; and I'm certain that every police officer on the planet would, instantaneously, treat him that way too.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:57   #24
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Do you really, truly, understand the circumstances under which most pistol gunfights occur? I would suggest that you don't.

Most CQB targets are NOT moving or, at least, not significantly so. (The last time I engaged a room full of moving pistol targets I was at a, 'Zombie Shoot'; and THAT ain't real life.) If your target is genuinely moving then it's going to be as difficult for him to hit you as it is, or might be, the other way around.



OK, far be it from me to push someone beyond their own level of personal skill.



My club, too! I'm presently shopping for extra magazines and a decent holster for a Smith & Wesson Model 41. Actually, I'm not disagreeing with you. 22 LR, especially out of a 4 or 5 inch barrel is anemic, and far from ideal for use as a self-defense cartridge; BUT, that is not to say that 22 LR isn't viable and, in the proper hands, can't be used well. The right bullet and the right gun CAN be made to work.

Three final things: One, I was once accidentally hit in the ankle by an ND from a 22 LR pistol. That little bullet only grazed the bone; and, when it did, it knocked me clean off my feet.

Two, 22 LR and 25 ACP have been reported to be the two most common cartridges used in street gunfights and the subsequent deaths these fights regularly cause.

Three, although I HAVE kept a 22 LR pistol in the bedroom for home defense, I don't carry 22 LR for self-defense. I carry 45 ACP, and 9 x 19mm just like everyone else.

All of which should tell you that: Those who can, do; and those who can't, shouldn't. An, at least, competent gunman with a 22 LR pistol is NOT unarmed; and I'm certain that every police officer on the planet would, instantaneously, treat him that way too.
I suggest you are the one not understanding the dynamics of a gunfight @ close range. YOur red lined statements tell me you have little understanding. FWI, no one ever said a 22lr won't kill, but it is a very poor fight stopper. I have seen men shot thru the foot w/ 9mm & 40 & not fallen top the ground, ridiculous.
If you & the bg are smart, you are both moving. It's why I laugh @ statements like yours about delivering x shots while standing still, in good light @ a stationary target, or the oft used 2 to the body 1 to the head in the same range envirment. What you can do with a 22lr I can do w/ a 9mm or 45, so choosing the 22 over either is foolish. But hey, free country, carry what you like, just understand you could be far better armed for a serious confrontation. There is just no real reason to purposely choose a 22lr as a SD arm. Adequate & viable are not terms I want to bet my life on.
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Old 02-09-2013, 20:33   #25
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Before we start arguing gun fights lets think about what the O.P. asked.
If all you had was a .22 would you be comfortable with it.
I say Hell no I wouldn't be comfortable, I'd be worried big time.
If all I had was a rock or a hammer it would have to do.
I'd be worried big time then too.
I'm comfortable with my .45 ACP. Anything less and I would wish I had my 45.
You ever hear the one about "what is a survival knife?" "It is whatever knife you have with you when you need it".
There would have to be a very good reason why I would only have a .22 with me.
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Old 02-09-2013, 22:12   #26
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As stated earlier, I would prefer it to nothing. I'd rather shoot someone with a .22 than throw a rock at him.

One more thing to keep in mind here, which many people have mentioned, that the .22 can be lethal. Absolutely. But in many of those cases, it wasn't immediate. It wasn't a threat-stopper. Someone who is fatally wounded from a .22 may not know they are dead yet and keep on fighting for some time.
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Old 02-09-2013, 22:20   #27
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That's a great video, fuzzynuts. Thanks for sharing it.
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Old 02-09-2013, 23:04   #28
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Would you feel confident in using a .22 in a defensive situation of that was all you had available at the time?
I wouldn't say I'd be confident in 22.lr if that was the only caliber I had to rely on in a potentially life-or-death situation, but I most certainly would be far more confident having it than not having any firearm.
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Old 02-10-2013, 00:17   #29
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I have my Ruger Mk III 'plinker' currently loaded with CCI Mini-Mags doing HD duty...
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:06   #30
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I suggest you are the one not understanding the dynamics of a gunfight @ close range. YOur red lined statements tell me you have little understanding. FWI, no one ever said a 22lr won't kill, but it is a very poor fight stopper. I have seen men shot thru the foot w/ 9mm & 40 & not fallen top the ground, ridiculous.
If you & the bg are smart, you are both moving. It's why I laugh @ statements like yours about delivering x shots while standing still, in good light @ a stationary target, or the oft used 2 to the body 1 to the head in the same range envirment. What you can do with a 22lr I can do w/ a 9mm or 45, so choosing the 22 over either is foolish. But hey, free country, carry what you like, just understand you could be far better armed for a serious confrontation. There is just no real reason to purposely choose a 22lr as a SD arm. Adequate & viable are not terms I want to bet my life on.
Listen, as far as I'm concerned you are certainly entitled to your opinion - No matter how far off the mark you happen to be; however, what makes you think that, between the two of us, you are the only one who is familiar with gun violence?

You can laugh all you want; but, before you start guffawing too loudly, you really ought to put your, 'mind into gear'. One more time, let's try to get it straight: I did NOT say that 22 LR is a, 'good stopper'. That fact you assumed. What I did say is that a 22 LR pistol CAN BE USED as an effective weapon; AND every police officer on the planet knows it, too! (Do you see the difference?)

You remind me of a conversation I once had with a member of the Israeli IDF. He said to me, 'I never worry about being outnumbered.' When I asked him, 'Why' he replied, 'Because if it's God's will that I must have enemies then I thank God that my enemies are Fedayeen.' Know what? That's exactly what I think of you and your presumed CQB, pistol gunfighting, 'expertise'.

A couple of other things: For more than a quarter of a century I was a highly skilled and very successful hunter. Surely you don't think that all of my shots were, 'at paper targets, standing still, and in good light'. Do you?

As for getting knocked off my feet by a glancing 22 LR bullet? I WAS STANDING THERE WITH MY BACK TO THE SHOOTER AND NOT EXPECTING TO BE HIT. This is NOT the same thing as going, 'toe-to-toe' with a committed opponent; nor did I say that it is. That's just one more assumption you laughed yourself into much too soon.)

I think we're done now.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:52   #31
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A .22 will kill, but it may take a couple of hours.
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:38   #32
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As stated earlier, I would prefer it to nothing. I'd rather shoot someone with a .22 than throw a rock at him.

One more thing to keep in mind here, which many people have mentioned, that the .22 can be lethal. Absolutely. But in many of those cases, it wasn't immediate. It wasn't a threat-stopper. Someone who is fatally wounded from a .22 may not know they are dead yet and keep on fighting for some time.
I agree 100% but this is also true for any handgun caliber. This link is very graphic but makes the point far better than me rambling about it. Warning, dead guy with bullet wounds.

http://catm.com/yabbfiles/Attachment...FBIAcademy.pdf
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:40   #33
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a 22 isn't optimal, however, richard ramirez used a .25 to kill his victims.

that's a .25....the round i wondered aloud if it would actually break skin.
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Old 02-10-2013, 15:28   #34
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If I am going to have to physically defend myself from somebody, I'd much rather they have a few 1/4" holes in their lungs first.

Not that I would count on a .22 being a guaranteed fight-ender, but I don't think it is going to help my assailant any.

Even out of a NAA mini revolver, it aint gonna tickle, and there is a nonzero chance of significant damage. According to some, at contact range the expanding muzzle gasses can do more damage than the actual bullet, but even if that isn't the case, I don't see the bullet improving the assailant's day.

Not that I do it often, but there are times I've pocket carried a NAA mini revolver and nothing else.
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Old 02-10-2013, 16:18   #35
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If I am going to have to physically defend myself from somebody, I'd much rather they have a few 1/4" holes in their lungs first.

Not that I would count on a .22 being a guaranteed fight-ender, but I don't think it is going to help my assailant any.

Even out of a NAA mini revolver, it aint gonna tickle, and there is a nonzero chance of significant damage. According to some, at contact range the expanding muzzle gasses can do more damage than the actual bullet, but even if that isn't the case, I don't see the bullet improving the assailant's day.

Not that I do it often, but there are times I've pocket carried a NAA mini revolver and nothing else.
So true. A couple of holes in the lungs (or heart) would be helpful.
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Old 02-10-2013, 20:23   #36
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a 22 isn't optimal, however, richard ramirez used a .25 to kill his victims.

that's a .25....the round i wondered aloud if it would actually break skin.
Some of his victims survived being shot in the head. Many of the ones he killed, he didn't stop at 'enough,' he stabbed dozens of times, or he nearly decapitated.

I find some reference that he used a .22, other source says he used a .44 magnum, hammers, butcher knives, even a sawed off shotgun - an unusual variety of weapons for a serial killer.
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Old 02-10-2013, 21:06   #37
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Shot placement! Shot placement! Shot placement! A .22 lr velocitor/stinger round going into a bad guys head several times in quick order is better than a single action .45 LC that misses 6 times. Is the .22 the best? Well, we can all agree it's not, but will it work in a pinch? Yes, with a heavier bullet and proper shot placement. Some folks say you have to shoot a deer with a 30-06, but I've cleanly taken whitetail with a 35# draw recurve before! SHOT PLACEMENT!

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Old 02-10-2013, 21:10   #38
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Some of his victims survived being shot in the head. Many of the ones he killed, he didn't stop at 'enough,' he stabbed dozens of times, or he nearly decapitated.

I find some reference that he used a .22, other source says he used a .44 magnum, hammers, butcher knives, even a sawed off shotgun - an unusual variety of weapons for a serial killer.
i hadn't heard th 44. mag part with ramirez. one serial used a 44 special ( david berkowitz) and one mass murderer used a 44 mag rifle (marc essex).
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Old 02-10-2013, 21:44   #39
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I sometimes carry a .25acp when i cant carry my G33. I am confident that up close and personal My .25 will eliminate a threat. Im not an idiot, And I have heard the " A buddy of a buddys 3rd cousin said he knew a guy" bullcrap. Yea the .25 just bounced off his cellphone or was found just under his skin and irritated him. Go ahead and get whacked by a .25 one time. I put 6 rounds thru a 1300 page phonebook 2 weeks ago. basic remington FMJ loads out of a FIE titan with a great barrel. SO lets cut the internet crap, A .22 will dust a guy, and the .25 will do it better. So i would feel comfortable using a .22 with enough rounds to be threatening....call it 5rds. Otherwise i want a frickin howitzer.
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Old 02-10-2013, 22:29   #40
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The first thing you have to engage is your brain. Yes if a .22 was my only option......maybe.

Year before last in my pharmacy one Sunday morning, I heard a scuffle and bodies crash into a counter. The manager hollered call 911 and come help me he has a weapon. Hmmmm those are words you dont want to hear. Actual I was carring but if you step into the middle of a robbery with a gun...That is your only option. On a hunch I picked up a claw hammer and stuffed it in my pants. I came around the conner both the robber and the manager were all ready bloody The manager had a head lock on the BG with a death grip The bad guy had a box cutter. He was slashing at the manager.

There were 5 customers trying to get out the front door, which the idot clerk had locked...? So we are locked in with this 6' 2" robber, my x army ranger manger engaged in hand to hand combat and I have a .357 magnum and a claw hammer. Which do you think was my weapon of choice in this choice?

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