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Old 02-12-2013, 19:57   #76
Andy W
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Yeah. It's probably a pointless conversation if you really think about it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 22:43   #77
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Their is just so much b.s. that goes around about the .22 it is unreal. No it is not as effective at making bigger holes than the service calibers. But I've actually heard statements such as "if you shoot someone with a .22 you just make them mad". If you unload a .22 that holds 10+1 rounds of Stingers or other hot .22 ammo rapid fire into someones neck, chest, and face they are going down.
We all know that everyone from hitmen, to the Israeli Air Marshals, Mossad agents, and our own armed forces have used .22's for a long time. Suppreesed .22's were used by our OSS in WWII because they were so quiet and if used right killed quickly and effectively. Not two days or two hours later. Years ago an Israeli Air Marshall held off several attackers trying to hijack an airliner with AK47's with his Beretta Model 70.
He did it by aggressive use of force and multiple well placed shots. Multiple hits especially to the head and neck will produce quite a bit of shock and trauma and usually bring someone down fast. It's been done over and over again. One friend who recently said the ".22 will only make them mad" was corrected by a friend of mine who grew up on a farm. They would kill hogs, cows, and other large animals with one wellplaced shot to the head from a .22 short!
No it is not ideal. But a local retired D.C. Cop has told us almost all the murders he investigated in D.C.were either .22's or 9mm FMJ. Another supposedly poor stopper. Everyone he investigated (remember murders not survivors) was usually DRT after being shot singular or multiple times with these calibers. No not a great choice for self defense. No handgun is. And yes bigger is better. But don't perpetuate stupid stories that .22's aren't very effective.
Go look at the attempted murder of President Reagan by a man with a .22 revolver. It was caught on camera. Mr. Brady and a police officer were hit by the .22 rounds and watch how fast they dropped. Watch it a few times. President Reagan almost died because they had trouble finding the bullet that wounded him and the damage it did. They all went down fast. Watch it and think about it before you knock how effective a .22 can be.
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Old 02-12-2013, 23:54   #78
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I have an old book written by a retired Alaskan Fish & Game officer. He said he carried a .22 revolver in the woods quite a bit. He mentioned it was a good killing gun. I purchased my S&W 317 as a back up since it only weighs 11 ounces and holds 8 rounds. A 50 round box of shells does not weigh much either.
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Old 02-13-2013, 00:02   #79
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I have an old book written by a retired Alaskan Fish & Game officer. He said he carried a .22 revolver in the woods quite a bit. He mentioned it was a good killing gun. I purchased my S&W 317 as a back up since it only weighs 11 ounces and holds 8 rounds. A 50 round box of shells does not weigh much either.
I can't imagine in Alaska .22lr is good for killing anything but rodents or small game.

I don't second guess your choice for a backup, so what do you carry as your primary sidearm up in God's country? My guess is either a 10mm or .44 Magnum.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:48   #80
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And Reagan didn't even know he was hit, Brady took a lucky shoot to the head & survived & the FBI agent was not completely out of the fight. Remember, they were ambushed, not fighting back, not hopped up on drugs or sensory deprived by alcohol. Sure, it works, but adequate would be a kind adjective.
If your ability is truely amazing & you can gaurantee a headshot on a bobbing/moving 4" circle on demand, in low light, then you can count yourself as one ofthe top shooters on the planet. I would wager, quite a large one too, that most shooters can't hit a moving 4" object on demand in say 1.5sec @ 21ft & do it 99 out of 100. I would also wager most have never tried it either. I don't care how much training you had in the mil or LE, unless you are shooting almost daily, that skill level decreases w/ each passing week. You just think you are as good as you were on your last best day @ the range.
I'm grounded in reality, I see how expert & master level shooters can & do miss. They shoot 4-5x a week, not just plinking but drilling & they can't gaurantee the shot 99 out of 100. I could & would cetainly fight w/ a 22lr if it was all I had, but to choose one, why?
Not sure why you think I disagree.

As far as the Reagan attempt; what happened....happened. Three guys went to the ground, fast.
Watch the friggin video. THe lesson *I* take from that is simple: Getting shot by any gun SUCKS.

Does that endorse the .22lr as a defense round? No.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:05   #81
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Go look at the attempted murder of President Reagan by a man with a .22 revolver. It was caught on camera. Mr. Brady and a police officer were hit by the .22 rounds and watch how fast they dropped. Watch it a few times. President Reagan almost died because they had trouble finding the bullet that wounded him and the damage it did. They all went down fast. Watch it and think about it before you knock how effective a .22 can be.
LOL Yeah point blank shot on a 70 year old man and it didn't kill him. The only reason he "went down" was because a secret service agent pushed him down, and into a car.

And as far as hitmen (LOL!) the only reason they get away with such a small caliber is that they get to pick the shot with the target unaware, so of course a temple shot with a .22 will work. Temple shots don't come up too often, though, in SD scenarios.

I don't think you understand what a self-defense gun is for. It is not for killing people. It is to make an aggressor STOP what he is doing. Killing him is a secondary consideration- indeed, if you state it to be your primary concern, you may face an angry DA. (read Ayoob please). And a .22 isn't making anyone stop what they're doing- it didn't even slow down a 70 year old man. Again, I am of the opinion that anyone who can shoot a .22 can learn to shoot a more effective caliber.
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Old 02-13-2013, 21:33   #82
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If that was all I had, yes.
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Old 02-13-2013, 22:50   #83
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I can't imagine in Alaska .22lr is good for killing anything but rodents or small game.

I don't second guess your choice for a backup, so what do you carry as your primary sidearm up in God's country? My guess is either a 10mm or .44 Magnum.
I enjoy my 10mm and carry it a bit. My Super Blackhawk 4 5/8 inch 44 Magnum is my favorite loaded with a good 300 grain load. The 317 is more of a survival tool to keep in my pack along with a knife and a leatherman.
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:27   #84
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I enjoy my 10mm and carry it a bit. My Super Blackhawk 4 5/8 inch 44 Magnum is my favorite loaded with a good 300 grain load. The 317 is more of a survival tool to keep in my pack along with a knife and a leatherman.



And we're still amigo's after all these years !
Man I got to come see ya and get some of that trout fishin !



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Old 02-14-2013, 11:10   #85
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I enjoy my 10mm and carry it a bit. My Super Blackhawk 4 5/8 inch 44 Magnum is my favorite loaded with a good 300 grain load. The 317 is more of a survival tool to keep in my pack along with a knife and a leatherman.
I knew you had serious sidearm caliber resources for your environment. And I agree with your idea of having .22lr as a survival tool. I'm going to a remote cabin tomorrow and taking my Ruger Mark II along with another pistol because the owner is getting overrun with armadillos. I can't see whacking them with anything larger.
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Old 02-14-2013, 13:24   #86
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Not sure why you think I disagree.

As far as the Reagan attempt; what happened....happened. Three guys went to the ground, fast.
Watch the friggin video. THe lesson *I* take from that is simple: Getting shot by any gun SUCKS.

Does that endorse the .22lr as a defense round? No.
I didn't imply you did, just pointing out some facts about the shooting. Had he used even a 38sp, all would have likely died before medical attention was given. Again the guys went down because they were ambushed & not expecting it. A head shot is a headshot. Eveyone else was functional, Reagan didn't even know he was hit.
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Old 02-14-2013, 13:25   #87
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I knew you had serious sidearm caliber resources for your environment. And I agree with your idea of having .22lr as a survival tool. I'm going to a remote cabin tomorrow and taking my Ruger Mark II along with another pistol because the owner is getting overrun with armadillos. I can't see whacking them with anything larger.
Well if the objective is to kill them cleanly, why not something larger? A 9mm, 357sig or 357mag w/ a 90-110gr JHP running fast is a varmint thumper for sure.
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Old 02-14-2013, 14:29   #88
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I enjoy my 10mm and carry it a bit. My Super Blackhawk 4 5/8 inch 44 Magnum is my favorite loaded with a good 300 grain load. The 317 is more of a survival tool to keep in my pack along with a knife and a leatherman.
Like to hear it - a 300gr .44 magnum load.
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Old 02-14-2013, 14:58   #89
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Ronald Reagan was hit with a fragment of bullet after hit ricocheted off the vehicle he was standing next to, so leave him out of the arguement.

I wouldnt carry a .22LR for self defense, but it is always better than nothing. It has killed, it has stopped, just as any other caliber has. But you cant necessarily count on it.

To answer the OP ".22 for defense if necessary?". YES, if necessary, but not always if there is an option.
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Old 02-14-2013, 15:18   #90
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Ronald Reagan was hit with a fragment of bullet after hit ricocheted off the vehicle he was standing next to, so leave him out of the arguement.

I wouldnt carry a .22LR for self defense, but it is always better than nothing. It has killed, it has stopped, just as any other caliber has. But you cant necessarily count on it.

To answer the OP ".22 for defense if necessary?". YES, if necessary, but not always if there is an option.
I wouldn't count on it for any defensive function.
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Old 02-14-2013, 19:26   #91
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I wouldn't count on it for any defensive function.
I wouldnt count on a knife for a defensive situation either, but to answer the OPs question, yes I would if necessary.
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Old 02-14-2013, 19:52   #92
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Well if the objective is to kill them cleanly, why not something larger (than .22lr)? A 9mm, 357sig or 357mag w/ a 90-110gr JHP running fast is a varmint thumper for sure.
Yes, those calibers are more deadly but well-placed MiniMag, Stinger, or Velocitor rounds kill small game just as dead. And the ammo cost is far below the more powerful calibers.

In my case the Ruger Mark II with 6 7/8" barrel is my best choice for eliminating varmints and pests because of its accuracy. I keep kicking myself for not buying the Mossberg AR-style .22lr before the current panic. A good .22lr rifle would be great for reaching out and touching these critters.
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Old 02-14-2013, 20:29   #93
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The 22lr is not the best defensive caliber by a long shot.

That being said, I have little doubt it can get the job done with accurate well placed shots.

I wouldn't have a ton of confidence in my Beretta 21A even loaded with mini-mags, with someone breaking down my door though.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:20   #94
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I wouldnt count on a knife for a defensive situation either, but to answer the OPs question, yes I would if necessary.
So would I . . . . .
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:19   #95
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No to the OP's question. Not even if I had my 10/22 loaded with 25 minimags or velocitors. Not even if my attacker was closing in from 50 or 100 yards (and I can shoot that rifle better than pretty much anyone with a pistol at that range). Well, maybe in that case.

I wouldn't be confident with a 22mag, 32acp or 380acp either. The very least I'd feel comfortable with is a 38 spl. If I had to use a 22 for SD I would do so but I don't ever want to be in that position, and always carry at least a 38 for that reason.


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Old 02-15-2013, 10:28   #96
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No to the OP's question. Not even if I had my 10/22 loaded with 25 minimags or velocitors. Not even if my attacker was closing in from 50 or 100 yards (and I can shoot that rifle better than pretty much anyone with a pistol at that range). Well, maybe in that case.

I wouldn't be confident with a 22mag, 32acp or 380acp either. The very least I'd feel comfortable with is a 38 spl. If I had to use a 22 for SD I would do so but I don't ever want to be in that position, and always carry at least a 38 for that reason.


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The .38 Special is a good round. 158gr HPs.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:46   #97
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No to the OP's question. Not even if I had my 10/22 loaded with 25 minimags or velocitors.

The very least I'd feel comfortable with is a 38 spl.

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I would take the 10/22 over a .38SPL anyday, especially at a distance. Velocitors are underrated from a rifle and IIRC both loads have close to the same energy levels.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:49   #98
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I would take the 10/22 over a .38SPL anyday, especially at a distance. Velocitors are underrated from a rifle and IIRC both loads have close to the same energy levels.
Would you take a 10/22 over a .357 Rifle shooting .38s?
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:53   #99
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Would you take a 10/22 over a .357 Rifle shooting .38s?
He was comparing a 5 shot .38 revolver to a 25 round 10/22.
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Old 02-15-2013, 13:34   #100
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He was comparing a 5 shot .38 revolver to a 25 round 10/22.
Clinttho didn't exactly say "5 shot revolver". He said ".38 Special".

There's plenty of good 4 and 6 inch barreled .38s that have more than fair accuracy at 50 or 100 yds.
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