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Old 02-12-2013, 23:37   #421
G19G20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine View Post
Am I the only one who heard on the San Bernardino County Sheriff Sysyem police scanner 2 officers talking and one said he "can see blood splatter and mattress against the wall" and the other officer said "ok were gonna burn it as planned". This was 15 mins before the media had any video or commentary on a fire. I also heard a woman dispatcher say "the furnace was in place at the front door"..
Scanner recording here, clearly showing the cops intentionally started the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdqy...ayer_embedded#!

Regardless of what you feel about Dorner, we can not allow the rule of law to be pushed aside whenever it is expedient, particularly when that power is in the hands of the gov't. That's how this country got into the mess it's in now.
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Old 02-12-2013, 23:49   #422
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Scanner recording here, clearly showing the cops intentionally started the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdqy...ayer_embedded#!

Regardless of what you feel about Dorner, we can not allow the rule of law to be pushed aside whenever it is expedient, particularly when that power is in the hands of the gov't. That's how this country got into the mess it's in now.
You're insane if you think police shouldn't be allowed to answer deadly force with deadly force.

Even if they did intend to burn him alive, why is that worse than a sniper bullet to the head?
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Old 02-12-2013, 23:54   #423
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Scanner recording here, clearly showing the cops intentionally started the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdqy...ayer_embedded#!

Regardless of what you feel about Dorner, we can not allow the rule of law to be pushed aside whenever it is expedient, particularly when that power is in the hands of the gov't. That's how this country got into the mess it's in now.
Yea they should allow him to use a 50 cal rifle and keep murdering people till he runs out of ammo right? Do you understand what a deadly force situation is? Do you understand what a sustained gun battle is? What a murderer armed to the teeth and who is also trained happens to be?

The only reason this is even being discussed is so this can be dragged out in the media for the next year or two and how all the bleeding hearts can cry about something new.

This man was a murdering POS that was involved in an active gun battle with police and the police were taking causalities. If it had been civilians with pitchforks and torches we would not be discussing rule of law...
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Last edited by spcwes; 02-12-2013 at 23:57..
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Old 02-12-2013, 23:55   #424
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Scanner recording here, clearly showing the cops intentionally started the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCdqy...ayer_embedded#!

Regardless of what you feel about Dorner, we can not allow the rule of law to be pushed aside whenever it is expedient, particularly when that power is in the hands of the gov't. That's how this country got into the mess it's in now.

"copy, seven (7) burners deployed and we have a fire"

Is that what you're referring to?

If I'm not mistaken a burner is also some type of CS gas? As someone else noted here, a better expert can speak on this.
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Old 02-12-2013, 23:58   #425
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"Hey you in the house shooting our cops over here with that rifle! We are sure gonna use the legal system on you when you run out of ammo!"
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Old 02-13-2013, 00:07   #426
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News is now reporting that no body has been located or removed from the cabin...

WTF?

Sent from the Titanic. I named my phone "The Titanic" so when I plug it into the computer it says "The Titanic is syncing".
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Old 02-13-2013, 00:08   #427
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Recovered, yes. Identified, no.

That's what I got.
Now CBS & CNN is reporting that no body has been recovered or identified. They believe that the body is in the burned out building because of the overall circumstances (details in link) but what's left of the building is still too hot to safely enter & search (still may be some unexpended ammo inside, etc).

No question a valid concern & the right approach, but having the body identified will help with short-term closure.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/12/us/lap...html?hpt=hp_t1


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...cop-recovered/
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:01   #428
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I don't know if showing them the bottom of your shoe has a similar meaning and history as the N-word. But if it does....probably so. You ask a Muslim how he feels about it after you do it. If in 30 seconds you're still standing upright it may not bother him. If he knocks you on your behind you know not to do it again.

Show people the respect you'd want and you wouldn't have to worry about it.
Can white folks who get called "crackah" or "white boy" respond in the same fashion? How about an Asian that gets called "Jackie Chan" or "Jet Li" wherever he goes? Or a Jew that gets called "Shylock" or "Kike"? We don't hear about these things too much because the media and PC left tell us that only certain people have a right to be offended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Feinstein and Boxer Ask Californians to Lay Down Their Weapons During Statewide Manhunt

(PP)- As an ex-Los Angeles police officer killed three people and went on a deadly shooting rampage in a vendetta to punish those he attributed for his firing, California Senators Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer pleaded for calm, and asked both law enforcement and civilians to lay down their weapons.

http://www.palookavillepost.com/2013...ewide-manhunt/
All fake, and the editor of Palookaville responded as best he could about it. But it doesn't sound too far from reality, does it?

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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
Drone, RPG, or hell a 55 gallon drum of diesel dropped from the police airship.

Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
A whole 155mm Howitzer battery and a Spectre Gunship with all BOFORS on go should do it.

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Originally Posted by JuneyBooney View Post
If the guy was as slick as reported he may not be dead. He may come back like a zombie..just like the movies. e really won't know for at least a week.
Shoot the head!
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I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:11   #429
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
You're insane if you think police shouldn't be allowed to answer deadly force with deadly force.

Even if they did intend to burn him alive, why is that worse than a sniper bullet to the head?
Are you telling me that a suspect that previously was alleged to have used deadly force becomes a justified target for deadly force by police absent an immediate threat to those police? In other words, even if the suspect isn't at that moment a threat (as in pointing a gun at YOU) that you can still kill him? While I think he did kill himself (pure opinion) and the burning actions were ultimately inconsequential, this is kind of a microcosm of this new policy that's popping up where the Powers That Be, local to federal, can just execute people based on past behavior or perceived threat level without any due process as prescribed by the law and the Constitution.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:16   #430
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No, cops do not become executioners just by virtue of someone having killed cops and have stated overtly they plan to kill more cops. That has no bearing on declaring open season the guy. That doesn't happen.

What does happen is that you don't take any chances and you err on the side of caution so that if it came down to it and you had a choice to make, you do whatever it takes for you to go home.
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I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:29   #431
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No, cops do not become executioners just by virtue of someone having killed cops and have stated overtly they plan to kill more cops. That has no bearing on declaring open season the guy. That doesn't happen.

What does happen is that you don't take any chances and you err on the side of caution so that if it came down to it and you had a choice to make, you do whatever it takes for you to go home.
Oh that "officer safety" thing I keep hearing about. Seems you can justify most anything as long as you claim "officer safety" once police start burning down houses with people inside. That's a scary precedent in the wrong hands and historically leads to cases where the wrong people are targeted or politically "unpopular" are exterminated. Don't get me wrong, I understand why it went down like it did in Big Bear. Im no moron. But I worry for the long term picture when things like that become policy and cops and gov't are able to convince themselves that such policies are fair and constitutional.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:31   #432
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
"copy, seven (7) burners deployed and we have a fire"

Is that what you're referring to?

If I'm not mistaken a burner is also some type of CS gas? As someone else noted here, a better expert can speak on this.
My understanding is that a "burner" is an incendiary grenade launched from an M79 launcher. Anybody can correct me if Im wrong here.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:36   #433
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Oh that "officer safety" thing I keep hearing about. Seems you can justify most anything as long as you claim "officer safety" once police start burning down houses with people inside. That's a scary precedent in the wrong hands and historically leads to cases where the wrong people are targeted or politically "unpopular" are exterminated. Don't get me wrong, I understand why it went down like it did in Big Bear. Im no moron. But I worry for the long term picture when things like that become policy and cops and gov't are able to convince themselves that such policies are fair and constitutional.

If you can show me where ANYTHING you stated is policy anywhere; please advise.

EVERY INCIDENT IS DIFFERENT! That is why so many of us question DETAILS! Because it is nearly impossible for us to come to a conclusion without as many facts and circumstances as we can gather and I see that our inquisitive nature 'bothers' some folks, to say the least.

Law enforcement is a life saving facet of every community. Deadly force is utilized in the preservation of life including the lives of others, when there are no other options.

If you can come up with better answers, you are more than welcome to go ahead and sign up and start a hiring process somewhere.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:39   #434
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CS munitions are of two types. The heat-producing variety are called "burners" in some places.

Took me some looking but I knew I saw it somewhere in this post.

Sam, please advise and enlighten our mutual acquaintance.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:39   #435
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Are you telling me that a suspect that previously was alleged to have used deadly force becomes a justified target for deadly force by police absent an immediate threat to those police? In other words, even if the suspect isn't at that moment a threat (as in pointing a gun at YOU) that you can still kill him? While I think he did kill himself (pure opinion) and the burning actions were ultimately inconsequential, this is kind of a microcosm of this new policy that's popping up where the Powers That Be, local to federal, can just execute people based on past behavior or perceived threat level without any due process as prescribed by the law and the Constitution.
You really seem to have no concept of what you're talking about. When I turned on the news this afternoon, it was about an ongoing GUN FIGHT with the suspect.

If they were being shot at and the assailant stopped to reload, by your definition he's not an "immediate, at-that-moment" threat, so they all need to lower their weapons and wait for him to reload, right?

This guy was in active contact with the police, leaving one more dead and another in surgery. What, pray tell, is YOUR definition of an "immediate, at-that-moment" threat? Because personally, I think you're just looking for any reason to bash on cops.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:43   #436
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Are you telling me that a suspect that previously was alleged to have used deadly force becomes a justified target for deadly force by police absent an immediate threat to those police? In other words, even if the suspect isn't at that moment a threat (as in pointing a gun at YOU) that you can still kill him? While I think he did kill himself (pure opinion) and the burning actions were ultimately inconsequential, this is kind of a microcosm of this new policy that's popping up where the Powers That Be, local to federal, can just execute people based on past behavior or perceived threat level without any due process as prescribed by the law and the Constitution.
See Tennessee v. Garner among others.


If a guy shoots at me, misses and then runs away; am I to not shoot back at him? Is he not still a threat?

You are wading in waters that are well over your head, sir and I suggest that you head towards shore.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:47   #437
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Based upon his behavior, accused crimes, and potential armament, incl. a .50 barrett, an RPG, grenades, etc, burning him out was a valid and brilliant decision.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:55   #438
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I'm not going to add to this... you guys have covered it for me. No need to further dignify the response to something that I didn't say but was misinterpreted to fit his own views.
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Old 02-13-2013, 03:24   #439
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
See Tennessee v. Garner among others.


If a guy shoots at me, misses and then runs away; am I to not shoot back at him? Is he not still a threat?

You are wading in waters that are well over your head, sir and I suggest that you head towards shore.
That's all great and whatnot but whenever it becomes acceptable to burn houses with people inside (see: Waco) because they are an alleged and perceived threat, we have crossed the rubicon as a society that believes in the rule of law and have moved into Judge Dredd territory.

Im sorry but if you joined the police force and suddenly find yourself in a situation "too dangerous" to follow the rule book (you did say such things aren't policy) in ending the standoff with a suspect then you probably shouldn't be police. Plus there's a prohibition against something called "cruel and unusual punishment". Burning someone alive is what radical muslims do. Are you ok with doing what they do to address a problem?

Last edited by G19G20; 02-13-2013 at 03:33..
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:34   #440
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That's all great and whatnot but whenever it becomes acceptable to burn houses with people inside (see: Waco) because they are an alleged and perceived threat, we have crossed the rubicon as a society that believes in the rule of law and have moved into Judge Dredd territory.

Im sorry but if you joined the police force and suddenly find yourself in a situation "too dangerous" to follow the rule book (you did say such things aren't policy) in ending the standoff with a suspect then you probably shouldn't be police. Plus there's a prohibition against something called "cruel and unusual punishment". Burning someone alive is what radical muslims do. Are you ok with doing what they do to address a problem?
Sir, do you have anything of substance or merit to back any of that up?


In either case, did they douse the dwelling in gasoline and set it ablaze? Or was it a direct result of their failure to comply given the situation and that the police made attempts to resolve the situation using less-lethal means?


Maybe we can play some Sting over a PA system and they'll give up??

Your first sentence tells me a lot and I'm afraid you're a little bit too deep.
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