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Old 02-10-2013, 11:52   #161
Cochese
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
Ok. Let's review...

He murders two people in an ambush attack as they sat in their car on Sunday.

Yes, that was planned.

He's publicly identified as a suspect on Wednesday evening. A few hours later, he's trying to steal a boat. He tells the victim he's fleeing to Mexico. So much for his asymmetrical warfare campaign...his instinct is to run.

Not much coolheaded planning there...he can't get the boat free. He may have been in the Navy, but he doesn't sound like he's much of a sailor, does he?

So, he abandons that idea and drives north east. Maybe he was going to attack one of his targets, maybe not. Anyway, he is spotted an LAPD officers follow him. He attacks them...but this is in reaction to them following him, as opposed to a pre-planned attack.

Fleeing the scene of that shooting (note that he didn't stand his ground to shoot it out), he comes across unsuspecting Riverside PD officers and ambushes them, killing one. Again, not a pre-planned act like the murder on Sunday, but a target of opportunity.

Let me pause to offer my thoughts and prayers to Dorner's victims, and their families...

Back to my recap:

Now, on the run, he apparently drives to Big Bear. He abandons the car, which, according to news reports, has a broken axle. He burns the car, leaving behind weapons, according to news accounts. Why leave behind guns if you have a car stashed? Why try to steal a boat in San Diego if you have a car stashed in Big Bear?

Remember, this guy lived with his mom, apparently.

So, unless he has an accomplice, he winds up in Big Bear afoot...not because of a carefully constructed battle plan, but because of a series of impulsive acts.

He burns the car. Why? A diversion? To destroy evidence? Who knows? Remember that both oars aren't in the water here. We try to look for logic in the behavior of some one who is behaving in an irrational (and homicidal) fashion. My guess...another impulsive choice, that made sense to him at the time, but a bad choice, as it drew LE up there in force.

What now? Well, unless he's prepared to go camping, he's in real trouble, due to the weather. He needs food, water and shelter. This isn't a guy who went through SERE school. If his first plan was to hop a stolen boat to Mexico, he probably didn't pack his North Face gear. So, did he have time, after the failed boat theft attempt, to prepare to hole up in Big Bear? Did he run home to his mama's house and pack for a week in the mountains in February? Did he have the time to think about the weather? Or did he flee up there on impulse (like the boat theft attempt) and discover that he really wasn't up to the task.

Bottom line, he managed to plan and carry out the first attack. There was no external pressure on him at that point. However, the recent events do not seemed to be part of a plan but and improvised escape attempt carried out under real pressure and fear of capture.

So much for his asymmetrical warfare campaign. Unless he can find shelter or transportation, he is in real trouble out there. If he is still alive, that is. After all this excitement, he's likely to crash, emotionally. Maybe depression and hopelessness set in. That could lead to suicide. A lot of cop killers commit suicide within days of their offense. Even if not suicidal, unless he has shelter, the weather conditions are life threatening.

Last thought: the allegations in the "manifesto" should be take with a huge grain of salt...it's all grandiose, self serving and it would be a mistake to assume his allegations are true.

He is (or was) driven by inner demons and serious mental illness. The "Cause" is NOT the cause, it's an excuse.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
Keep in mind his allegation against the FTO was at least two weeks after the alleged incident, and, significantly, after the FTO gave him an unsatisfactory rating.

Also keep in mind that he was in the field for just four months after completing the Academy when he was called up on Active Duty with the Navy...and was deployed for twelve months. So, he did not complete his probationary period in the usual time frame.

When he returned from the deployment, he wanted to go BACK to the Academy because he didn't feel up to going back into patrol.

That request was denied, so he goes back into patrol. That is why he had an FTO at the time he made his allegation, because he was still completing his field training.

Note also that in the manifesto he claims one of the officers who beat Rodney King is still in LAPD in a position of rank. Not true. All four officers involved in that incident (who struck King) were fired and prosecuted twice.

Finally, regarding his allegations against the FTO, independent witnesses contradicted his testimony.

Remember, all this was during the Federal Consent degree period. The Department was under the DOJ microscope and would take such an allegation seriously. For the Department to send Dorner to a Board of Rights for making a false allegation means it was sure the allegation was not only unfounded but fabricated.

He had an attorney provided by the Police Protective League (a retired LAPD captain). I can tell you, from personal observation, that LA Police Protective League attorneys zealously represent their client.

Let's not forget that he did not murder the daughter of the Internal Affairs Advocate who prosecuted the Board of Rights, nor the people who comprised the trial Board: two captains and the civilian Board member (a city employee, not an LAPD employee, who is there to provide civilian oversight of the process). Nor did he go after Chief Beck or former Chief Bratton. No, he murders the daughter of the man that DEFENDED him, and her fiancé.

He has zero credibility.

Another thought: when fired, an officer turns in his badge. Yet a badge, supposedly his, was recovered in San Diego recently. If it's his LAPD badge, he would have had to steal it. If it's a fake badge, that's also interesting. This guy is, or was, the inadequate wannabe type who happened to get hired by LAPD, but was clearly ill suited to the job.

Finally, consider the timing of all this.

Why now? He was fired years ago.

I speculate that there have been other recent stressors which caused him to turn his revenge fantasy into a reality.

The "Cause" is not the cause. The same was true of lone wolf offenders like the Unabomber (he had a manifesto, too), McVeigh and Buford Furrow. All were fundamentally homicidal mentally ill people who drummed up a political justification for their murderous acts. Dormer is simply cut from that dysfunctional cloth, with huge mental health problems and a homicidal tendency. Due to his narcissism, he needs to call attention to his imagined righteousness.

Sadly, many are taken in...

Excellent posts.




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Originally Posted by Black Smoke Trail View Post
Not excellent.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:53   #162
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Originally Posted by skorper View Post
I can see this turning into a fanboy fest in short order.
Not a fanboy fest. Just seen enough injustice and lies in life to know what the media is telling you isn't always the truth. Pro 2nd Amendment people should know and understand this.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:59   #163
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Either way....I hope that this ends with no more deaths.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:06   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Low_Speed View Post
Either way....I hope that this ends with no more deaths.
No more deaths of innocent people anyway.......
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:08   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Low_Speed View Post
I do believe that this could have all been prevented if someone had've looked into this outside of LAPD.
Im pretty sure you havent read any of the posts but they LAPD does have civilians on their review board. Isnt that exactly what you are talking about?
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:19   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Low_Speed View Post
Why did he need to get fired?
They may or may not have had a reason to fire him, but it is obvious NOW he needed to go. You don't want a police officer who will go off on a shooting rampage when his life turns to s***.

I spent 12+ years as a police officer of one sort or another, and have seen good ones and bad ones. I saw even more of each when I became an FTO and later a supervisor.

Some bad ones ran away (D. Hayhurst really did a number on us), some turned into bullies, and some turned to crime, and some turn into do-nothings. And now this guy starts murdering and severely injuring people.

None of them belong in uniform, regardless of the cause.

A police officer has the power of life and death over people, and has to be made of sterner stuff, and (in my old fashioned opinion) held to a high standard of self control.

I am all for second chances, but a lot of people cannot hack it as a copper.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:41   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinervaDoe View Post
LAPD to reopen probe into fugitive ex-cop's firing

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...x-cops-firing/

If he has successfully managed to hide himself, then maybe this will get him to settle down while the probe takes place.
Political and strategic move. But won't appease this guy unless he gets everything he wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indigent View Post
Hell, he even has a Facebook page created by folks that support him......

https://www.facebook.com/ChrisDorner187
That is the sad statement on our society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by w01 View Post
And potentially (and coincidentally) to the loss of his military reserve officer status, which occurred 1 Feb 2013. Remember he was still using on base facilities in the San Diego area as late as January. He would have lost access to those with his discharge. That could be another blow to his ego as it appears that this status was important to him and he blames its loss on his LAPD issues.
He's the typical loser who is nothing without the badge and gun. Everyone one of us knows those types who have to be a cop because that is all they have. Take away their badge and you take away their manhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Low_Speed View Post
Either way....I hope that this ends with no more deaths.
Except his and his accomplices.
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Old 02-10-2013, 13:11   #168
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Can we talk about putting people in jail? I'm referring to those
who fired up two old ladies delivering newspapers. Jeez.
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Old 02-10-2013, 13:33   #169
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A REMINDER...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Quote:
Quote:
WARNING: If you post in this thread, and it is deemed your purpose is to disrupt the discussion, if you post off topic comments to incite other members, if there is the slightest hint of trolling, you will suffer consequences.

Read this post before proceeding: A post from Eric re: GNG & LE oriented topics...

This is an important topic to GT LE members.
Manhunt for ex LAPD Officer

Please post links to latest news updates.

Multi-state manhunt under way for ex-LAPD cop sought in killing of officer, 2 others
Consequences = Infractions

Trying to be subtle will only exacerbate the offense.
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Old 02-10-2013, 13:35   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xromad View Post
Can we talk about putting people in jail? I'm referring to those
who fired up two old ladies delivering newspapers. Jeez.
No, we may not.

There is a thread in Political Issues on that topic.
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Old 02-10-2013, 13:44   #171
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This seems to be the regular; "I lost my job and my livelyhood, I have nothing to live for and plan to take others with me".

People get fired all the time and in this economy, some take it harder. I would guess this happens once a week where a guy is fired and shows up at work to do harm, only when it comes to police work guns are always present. At least once a month it makes national news, more so local news, some times its not even reported.

He snapped, he did what he did. I dont think he stays in the same mental state. He knows what he did there is no turning back. Lets hope he died in the elements.

Now if had a field expediant explosives class, I would not drive any PD vehicle that was not kept in a secured area, nor would I force entry on any places he might be held up.
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:01   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdrkt View Post
Im pretty sure you havent read any of the posts but they LAPD does have civilians on their review board. Isnt that exactly what you are talking about?
Yes. They also have a public safety committee of city counsel members that oversee the department. They also were under a federal consent decree and may still be under it. The consent decree had some pretty amazing self policing requirements.

It is worth a read.

Of course that means being willing to shed biases through learning.
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:08   #173
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We've all heard compelling stories about how Dorner got a raw deal during his termination, yet we never hear the other side of the story. What is also not mentioned is that Dorner appealed this matter all the way to the California Court of Appeals, which upheld his termination.
The below link is to the Court of Appeals analysis, spelling out both sides of the case. You can draw your own conclusions as to what happened.

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx...0111003006.xml
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:10   #174
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Naturally, I can't find the article again, but I believe that one of the news articles I read claimed that up to 60% of the cabins in Big Bear sit vacant at any selected time. Or, what if he knows how to survive in a snowcave?

Meanwhile, it seems like the police are covering their bets well and watching the Mexican border for this guy.

I haven't seen too many theories on what if this guy has accomplices? We've all seen information on the splinter groups that are now supporting him. What if someone else drove the truck to Big Bear. He supposedly owns thirty guns and had five years to plan. What if he has fifteen weapons caches?

The police really have their hands full with this one.
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:19   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-1 View Post
We've all heard compelling stories about how Dorner got a raw deal during his termination, yet we never hear the other side of the story. What is also not mentioned is that Dorner appealed this matter all the way to the California Court of Appeals, which upheld his termination.
The below link is to the Court of Appeals analysis, spelling out both sides of the case. You can draw your own conclusions as to what happened.

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx...0111003006.xml
But the logic flow would be... if the LAPD and LE are corrupt, it would be fully capable of corrupting the trial court (which it must have). And surely also fully capable of corrupting the Ct of Appeals (which it must have).
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:33   #176
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No, we may not.

There is a thread in Political Issues on that topic.

Interesting. I have learned much here.

Thank you.
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:50   #177
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Originally Posted by Detectorist View Post
Maybe the investigation was 'reopened' as a tactic to calm him down and gain time?
It sends a bad message. It essentially says, well, if you murder people, then we'll pay attention to your complaint. So, instead of dealing with the union, instead of filing a law suit, just shoot people, then we'll look into it? Screw due process?

Sorry, but if I get railroaded by my agency the first step is going to the the union. Failing that, it is going to be a lawsuit. Failing that, it it is going to be a career change.

The only time I plan to use deadly force is to protect myself or someone else from grave bodily harm or death. Murder is not an option. Murder shouldn't get you another bite at the apple with the agency that employs you.
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Old 02-10-2013, 14:53   #178
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Political and strategic move. But won't appease this guy unless he gets everything he wants.
Yeah, unfortunately I think Marlowe has it right. What he really wants is to kill and destroy under the cover of a noble cause. If they came out today and said it was all a big mistake and that LAPD brass would be prosecuted for a cover-up, I think he would still continue his murderous spree with renewed justification in his actions.


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Old 02-10-2013, 15:08   #179
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The lesson here is watch how you treat people because you never know how they'll react. Especially when they feel like their back is against the wall.
Bull****. There is no need to ever placate a turd because they might do something bad. That's not how we handle criminals. People of true mettle and honor don't give it up when their backs are against the wall. True, honorable men will fight for justice and even employ violence against their oppressors when necessary, however they do not murder innocent people in the name of justice. That is simply a coward looking for an excuse as has already been pointed out. Don't confuse standing up for an honorable cause with a psychopath looking for an excuse for evil.


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The other night there was a loud argument in the hall outside my apartment while I was trying to sleep. I went out and told them they better leave or I was gonna use some Kung-Fu... THAT scared them off...

Plus I was totally nekkid and holding a gun.
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Old 02-10-2013, 15:11   #180
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It sends a bad message.
It sends a terrible message. When this whole thing first started, the second thing the Chief should have done was pull the original disciplinary case and reviewed it.

And review the case, he should have. So that he could say:"we are aware of the nut's complaint. In the past few days I/we have re-reviewed the investigation in question and came to the same conclusion. Again. Thank you."
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