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Old 02-18-2013, 21:19   #1
fowl intent
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Listen up Christians....

It seems we can't have a civil discussion on this forum without some Christian quoting chapter and verse from the Bible to support their position. I guess we will just have to report the trolls who counter scientific fact, and logical reasoning by quoting Bible verses.

On a more serious note, maybe a little study about the history of the Bible, and how it came into its present form would help Christians understand why to some of us, the Bible is not the be all end all guide to life.

This is a topic that scares the pants off most Christians, because they believe that it is sinful to even question anything about the Bible. But I invite those brave enough to take an honest look at the history of thier religious text to do a little research on the subject.

"Misquoting Jesus" is a good place to start. This is a book by Bart Erhman, raised as an evangelical Christian, who later received his PhD and Masters of Divinity at Princeton Theological Seminary. It is interesting to note that after a career of studying the Bible, and textual discrepancies and criticism, he is now a non-believer.

Erhman discusses how the Bible as we now know it has been cobbled together from ancient texts that have been handed down from the earlier times. The key point being that the source documents for what has become the existing versions of the Bible, came from copies of copies of copies of the original texts. None of the "original texts" still exist. In the process of copying the original texts, there have been translations from one language to another, which often results in changing the meaning or nuances of a particular passage. There are also many examples given where texts were changed or edited by the scribes charged with copying the texts, either for political or religious reasons, or simply by accident.

Bottom line is that the Bible as we now have it, whether the original texts were inspired by God or not, is an inaccurate version of the original texts, full of accidental and intentional changes, sloppy or downright errant translations from earlier languages, and certainly not "the literal and inerrant word of God".

So when you wonder why some of us free thinkers are not pursuaded by your quotations of Bible verses, please keep in mind that while the Bible is a beautiful collection of prose and parables, it is hardly an accurate history of the times nor is it a scientific reference for explaining such things as creation, or the fossil record.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:02   #2
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I think we need a science forum. Then the Christians will have to disguise their opinions as ID to get in.

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Old 02-19-2013, 07:09   #3
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So when you wonder why some of us free thinkers are not pursuaded by your quotations of Bible verses, please keep in mind that while the Bible is a beautiful collection of prose and parables, it is hardly an accurate history of the times nor is it a scientific reference for explaining such things as creation, or the fossil record.
It's not supposed to be a science book. As far as what this guy was taught in seminary.....who cares. They should call it cemetary. They still teach these guys that God's instructions have been abolished. They are irrelevant. That this guy is dismayed that what he was taught is garbage shouldn't suprise him, and it has no effect on the truth.

The Hebrew texts go back thousands of years. Longer than current, modern, theologians know. The original Aramaic texts of the N.T. that we currently have, go back to 400ad. So it's hardly accurate to describe them as so horribly corrupted. But if it makes you feel better, believe whatever you want.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:18   #4
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Brasso, I thought you were Jewish?
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:41   #5
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Originally Posted by fowl intent View Post
It seems we can't have a civil discussion on this forum without some Christian quoting chapter and verse from the Bible to support their position. I guess we will just have to report the trolls who counter scientific fact, and logical reasoning by quoting Bible verses.

On a more serious note, maybe a little study about the history of the Bible, and how it came into its present form would help Christians understand why to some of us, the Bible is not the be all end all guide to life.

This is a topic that scares the pants off most Christians, because they believe that it is sinful to even question anything about the Bible. But I invite those brave enough to take an honest look at the history of thier religious text to do a little research on the subject.

"Misquoting Jesus" is a good place to start. This is a book by Bart Erhman, raised as an evangelical Christian, who later received his PhD and Masters of Divinity at Princeton Theological Seminary. It is interesting to note that after a career of studying the Bible, and textual discrepancies and criticism, he is now a non-believer.

Erhman discusses how the Bible as we now know it has been cobbled together from ancient texts that have been handed down from the earlier times. The key point being that the source documents for what has become the existing versions of the Bible, came from copies of copies of copies of the original texts. None of the "original texts" still exist. In the process of copying the original texts, there have been translations from one language to another, which often results in changing the meaning or nuances of a particular passage. There are also many examples given where texts were changed or edited by the scribes charged with copying the texts, either for political or religious reasons, or simply by accident.

Bottom line is that the Bible as we now have it, whether the original texts were inspired by God or not, is an inaccurate version of the original texts, full of accidental and intentional changes, sloppy or downright errant translations from earlier languages, and certainly not "the literal and inerrant word of God".

So when you wonder why some of us free thinkers are not pursuaded by your quotations of Bible verses, please keep in mind that while the Bible is a beautiful collection of prose and parables, it is hardly an accurate history of the times nor is it a scientific reference for explaining such things as creation, or the fossil record.
Strange, most people go into threads already in existence to troll.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:44   #6
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Strange, most people go into threads already in existence to troll.
That's beneath you Roering. You may not agree with anything that Fowl Intent said, but it was presented in a civil and rational manner. Hardly trolling.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:58   #7
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That's beneath you Roering. You may not agree with anything that Fowl Intent said, but it was presented in a civil and rational manner. Hardly trolling.
You can be both civil & rational, and still be trolling.
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Old 02-19-2013, 17:56   #8
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You can be both civil & rational, and still be trolling.
Explain this. What defines trolling to you? Someone saying something that you disagree with? Someone saying something that many here would disagree with?
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Old 02-19-2013, 18:13   #9
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So when you wonder why some of us free thinkers
how are you a free thinker, when so many people think the same as you...and believe in it, religiously

contrary to what mommy told you, you're not a special snow-flake.
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Old 02-19-2013, 18:50   #10
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how are you a free thinker, when so many people think the same as you...and believe in it, religiously

contrary to what mommy told you, you're not a special snow-flake.
The term "free" does not mean "unique" or "original". It means "without impediment or infringement". It means that nobody is telling us what to think.
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Old 02-19-2013, 18:56   #11
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I am not supposed to argue with you...the OP. Our Father has said His words are enough. Not upon my authority, but on His.
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Old 02-19-2013, 19:26   #12
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Originally Posted by fowl intent View Post
So when you wonder why some of us free thinkers are not pursuaded by your quotations of Bible verses, please keep in mind that while the Bible is a beautiful collection of prose and parables, it is hardly an accurate history of the times nor is it a scientific reference for explaining such things as creation, or the fossil record.
Accurate compared to what? It named the Hittites, and we didn't find their ruins until 1906. It is an excellent source of information about the Bronze Age. Egyptian records are filled with religion and propaganda. So, your judgement seems unjustified. Even Roman history is untrustworthy at times.

We are simply conjecturing about anything prior to around 600 million years after the Big Bang or Singularity. There is nothing to observe, measure, or experiment with. There is no "scientific reference" for the universe's creation only philosophy.

Most Christians have no problem with fossils being very ancient and believing that something outside of the universe created the universe.

What I find odd is that in a matter of maybe 150-100 years, progressive, Western "free thinkers" have rejected millennia of social evolution and rejected among other things capitalism, the nuclear family, Western ethics, the concept of political liberty, free speech, long standing social rules concerning the raising of children in stable households with a father and a mother, and the avoidance of sexual transmitted diseases via monogamy.

Clearly, Indo-European and Asian male dominated families, tribes, and nations out-competed and dominated female dominated tribes. Yet, progressive "free thinkers" reject this evolutionary evidence and are attempting to create an artificial "progressive" society based on unrealistic secular humanist socialist "equality".

The result is a Western Europe with a negative native population growth rate due to high taxation on prospective parents and a culture of decadence rather than a people concerned with the survival of a native population/nation.
Western cultural extinction may be caused by a rejection of evolutionary principals.
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Old 02-19-2013, 19:59   #13
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We are simply conjecturing about anything prior to around 600 million years before the Big Bang or Singularity.
There is no 600 million years before the Big Bang. In BBT, saying 'before the Big Bang' doesn't have any meaning, because there is no time before the big bang in the math. Anything before the big bang, period, is conjecture, and there may in fact be information barriers that prevent us from looking farther back than times after the big bang.
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Old 02-19-2013, 20:03   #14
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There is no 600 million years before the Big Bang.
I meant after. Thanks.
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Old 02-19-2013, 20:07   #15
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I meant after. Thanks.
Makes sense. No worries.
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Old 02-19-2013, 23:41   #16
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It's not supposed to be a science book. As far as what this guy was taught in seminary.....who cares. They should call it cemetary. They still teach these guys that God's instructions have been abolished. They are irrelevant. That this guy is dismayed that what he was taught is garbage shouldn't suprise him, and it has no effect on the truth.

The Hebrew texts go back thousands of years. Longer than current, modern, theologians know. The original Aramaic texts of the N.T. that we currently have, go back to 400ad. So it's hardly accurate to describe them as so horribly corrupted. But if it makes you feel better, believe whatever you want.
wait, so age should be a factor?? then shouldn't we skip the bible and follow cave paintings as scripture since they have seniority?
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Old 02-20-2013, 09:50   #17
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Explain this. What defines trolling to you? Someone saying something that you disagree with? Someone saying something that many here would disagree with?
In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

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Old 02-20-2013, 13:12   #18
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wait, so age should be a factor?? then shouldn't we skip the bible and follow cave paintings as scripture since they have seniority?
Cave paintings do not have a date stamp on them or claim to be communication with deity.

The Bible does.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
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Old 02-20-2013, 13:42   #19
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...What I find odd is that in a matter of maybe 150-100 years, progressive, Western "free thinkers" have rejected millennia of social evolution and rejected among other things capitalism, the nuclear family, Western ethics, the concept of political liberty, free speech, long standing social rules concerning the raising of children in stable households with a father and a mother, and the avoidance of sexual transmitted diseases via monogamy...

I would bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of unwed mothers self-identify as some flavor of Christian in this country.

Is this the precursor to the No True Scotsman fallacy being brought up, yet again?
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:03   #20
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I would bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of unwed mothers self-identify as some flavor of Christian in this country.

Is this the precursor to the No True Scotsman fallacy being brought up, yet again?
You may be right, but their flavor is contaminated with the Left's on-going social rot. For instance, Pelosi can call herself a "devout" Catholic and be pro-abortion because she's a Leftist loon. I don't even think she's Scottish.

No need, you already qualified Christianity as being made up of flavors.
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:11   #21
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It's not supposed to be a science book. As far as what this guy was taught in seminary.....who cares. They should call it cemetary. They still teach these guys that God's instructions have been abolished. They are irrelevant. That this guy is dismayed that what he was taught is garbage shouldn't suprise him, and it has no effect on the truth.

The Hebrew texts go back thousands of years. Longer than current, modern, theologians know. The original Aramaic texts of the N.T. that we currently have, go back to 400ad. So it's hardly accurate to describe them as so horribly corrupted. But if it makes you feel better, believe whatever you want.
The texts that go back to 400ad... I'll tell my life story and the complete stories of a handful of my friends to a group of people. 400 years from now, after they've passed everything on orally (or in writings that subsequently were lost and then recreated either from memory or oral recountings), and we can compare my current version to the 400 years from now version.

Fair test or possible biblical accuracy, no?
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:22   #22
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so, on a religious forum one is not to quote the bible? You don't find that odd?
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:45   #23
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I don't really have problem with people quoting the bible, so long as they understand that it really is not some magical incantation. It doesn't tend to make your advocated position any more pursuasive. You can quote any book you like, just don't tell me it is "God's" truth, or anyone else's truth. When the rubber hits the road, no one really knows the "truth", although I would like to think we are all striving to find it, albeit in very different ways.
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Old 02-20-2013, 17:46   #24
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I have just seen too many people who throw bible verses like they were lightening bolts. Like it is an argument/debate ender.

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Old 02-20-2013, 18:53   #25
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so, on a religious forum one is not to quote the bible? You don't find that odd?
What's odd is that people can't seem to understand that this isn't a 'religious forum', it's a Religious Issues forum. There is a difference, whether you want there to be or not.
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