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Old 02-15-2013, 11:01   #21
KalashniKEV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
How do you know the gas port would be the wrong size?
People who buy econo grade rifles usually shoot crap ammunition.

If you pull the block and measure most commercial grade rifles, they are usually .078 or even more.

That being said, you had the golden opportunity to call me out and prove me wrong here... I googled it and apparently their port sizes are:

Quote:
Here are our gas port sizes:

14.5"末末末末末末-.067"
16"末末末末末末末-.063"
20"末末末末末末末-.093"

When we start doing 11.5" they will be .076".
At the same time I withdraw that criticism though, I must add a few more:

1) It was my understanding in the previous post that WW was touting their HPT/MPI bolts, but now I have found that they are likely "batch" tested, which is UNSAT.

2) Some rifles still ship with commercial/ semi carriers and improper, commercial diameter receiver extensions.

3) Also, you have to stake your own Castle Nut, and as far as the BCG staking... is it sound?


I'm just not sure if I would willingly get ripped off by these folks when a new Colt LE6920 was going for $1050 a few months ago. If they were offering it at ~$700 then I'd say yeah, maybe you might consider one... then save up an extra $300 and get something that's not going to quit on you.

There are far better options out there in that price range. Don't fall victim to the panic and just buy whatever's on the shelf.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:34   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Any serious AR (Colt, Noveske, DD, BCM, LMT) is better than one of these commercial spec junkers for the following reasons:

1) The gas port will be properly sized at .063.

(pull the gas block on that rifle- a 1/16 drill bit will be a hot dog down a hallway in that junker)

2) BCG and FCG parts will be of known quality and not lowest bidder, or built by a rebranded workforce known for spotty QC. (WW is supposedly HPT/MPI testing their bolts now, though)

3) You will get a quality barrel will have the proper twist rate allowing you to fire the widest variety of ammunition accurately.

4) The fit and finish will be superior... if that's your thing.
Alot of assumptions on your part. But regardless of the a couple of things stick out. One is half the
Rifles you named can not be purchased for $1100 like you implied. And second you have yet to post anything showing how any of these ARs are 10x the quality if the WW. So I can only guess maybe you over stated things in you original post.

Last edited by Ruggles; 02-15-2013 at 12:37..
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Old 02-15-2013, 14:49   #23
KalashniKEV
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Originally Posted by Ruggles View Post
Alot of assumptions on your part. But regardless of the a couple of things stick out. One is half the
Rifles you named can not be purchased for $1100 like you implied. And second you have yet to post anything showing how any of these ARs are 10x the quality if the WW. So I can only guess maybe you over stated things in you original post.
Prior to googling, one assumption I made, regarding the port size turned out wrong. They are properly sizing their ports.

Other assumptions I made- that the castle nut would be properly staked, the carrier and receiver extension would be of the proper spec, and that the bolts were tested and proven turned out to be wrong... and quality is in fact lower than I had imagined.

So, if I made any assumptions, they benefited WW. The rifles are worse than I thought.

Regarding the cost, I clearly stated that once the market stabilizes you will be able to buy a quality rifle for less money. One that is, literally, TEN TIMES THE RIFLE.

Obviously you can turn out junkers by the barrel full if you aren't focused on doing things right. If you have to have it now and you're willing to pay more and get less, then by all means, grab what's on the shelf. That's the way markets operate.

Quality takes time.
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Old 02-15-2013, 15:30   #24
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My 2006 Bushmaster has worked fine though it wouldn't be my go-to rifle. My understanding is the old BMI and current WW make a good barrel, and I know at least some of their models are 1/7. However, at regular non-panic pricing I would rather pay more than $800-850 and get something that has a mil spec receiver extension with a staked castle nut, etc.
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Old 02-15-2013, 15:52   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Prior to googling, one assumption I made, regarding the port size turned out wrong. They are properly sizing their ports.

Other assumptions I made- that the castle nut would be properly staked, the carrier and receiver extension would be of the proper spec, and that the bolts were tested and proven turned out to be wrong... and quality is in fact lower than I had imagined.

So, if I made any assumptions, they benefited WW. The rifles are worse than I thought.

Regarding the cost, I clearly stated that once the market stabilizes you will be able to buy a quality rifle for less money. One that is, literally, TEN TIMES THE RIFLE.

Obviously you can turn out junkers by the barrel full if you aren't focused on doing things right. If you have to have it now and you're willing to pay more and get less, then by all means, grab what's on the shelf. That's the way markets operate.

Quality takes time.

I must have missed some of the ARs you referenced selling for $1100 before this mess started. Seems to me they were selling for 50% to 60% more than that before this mess.

No doubt some of those ARs are of higher quality overall than WW but 10x better is not a realistic estimation.
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Old 02-15-2013, 17:14   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Any serious AR (Colt, Noveske, DD, BCM, LMT) is better than one of these commercial spec junkers for the following reasons:

1) The gas port will be properly sized at .063.

(pull the gas block on that rifle- a 1/16 drill bit will be a hot dog down a hallway in that junker)

2) BCG and FCG parts will be of known quality and not lowest bidder, or built by a rebranded workforce known for spotty QC. (WW is supposedly HPT/MPI testing their bolts now, though)

3) You will get a quality barrel will have the proper twist rate allowing you to fire the widest variety of ammunition accurately.

4) The fit and finish will be superior... if that's your thing.
What does one consider the proper twist rate for an AR rifle?
Considering the original M16 barrel was a 4 groove 1 in 14" in early guns and 6 groove 1 in 12" later on. I will admit that my memory is spotty some times, but I seem to recall them going to a 6 groove 1 in 7" in the early 80's to stabilize the composite core M855 ammo.
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Old 02-15-2013, 20:15   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason D View Post
What does one consider the proper twist rate for an AR rifle?
Considering the original M16 barrel was a 4 groove 1 in 14" in early guns and 6 groove 1 in 12" later on. I will admit that my memory is spotty some times, but I seem to recall them going to a 6 groove 1 in 7" in the early 80's to stabilize the composite core M855 ammo.
I'll amend my terminology- "Proper" twist depends on the application. You might be some weirdo that shoots 40 gr, for which 1/12 might be appropriate.

"Optimal" twist IMO, is 1/7, because it will stabilixe the widest variety of bullet weights (really it is effected by length, but heavier bullets are of course longer).

Basically 1/7 twist - 60g+
1/8 twist - 50g-60g
1/9 twist - 50g-

There's a line chart out there, I think by Lucky Gunner Labs, that shows the accuracy dropping off for each.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:46   #28
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Here's the chart from calguns. 1:9 has a broader range than mentioned above. 1:7's sweet spot doesn't start until 69gr.
Black Rifle Forum



Or this chart works from bullet length. In either case with any Internet info YMMV.

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Old 02-16-2013, 13:01   #29
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What are the failure rates of batch tested bolts vs individually tested?

How many people here have ever worn out an AR?
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Old 02-16-2013, 13:07   #30
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
By the by, how long does something have to be out before it is proven?
That's a legit question... People were sucking at Smith and Wesson's teat over their M&P line within 6 months after first release, even though there were critical failures in those first few years.

The same people who will look the other way based on a name, will never give credit where it is due based on a name.




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Old 02-16-2013, 14:39   #31
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Give it a few more weeks, and you'll be able to buy that for almost half that price. Then if it turns out to be a dog, you'll have saved enough on the purchase to pay for the tweaks.
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Old 02-16-2013, 17:03   #32
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I have a Bushmaster 20" Hbar that has a 1 in 9" barrel. It has printed sub MOA groups at 100 yards with 75gr Hornaday Amax bullets. That is just about the heaviest I have ever shot out of that particular gun. I was surprised at how well it did that that bullet. It's a near copy of my DCM rifle, though that rifles has a 1 in 8" match barrel.

I never shoot anything lighter than 62 grains.
It's a PITA though to have to manually load the heavier bullet handloads though.
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Old 02-16-2013, 20:01   #33
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*This* is the chart I referenced, which shows accuracy dropping off for 1/12 at 62 and 1/9 at 75:

Black Rifle Forum

https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/ZZPNiRXyqYm

Last edited by KalashniKEV; 02-16-2013 at 20:04..
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Old 02-16-2013, 21:59   #34
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Originally Posted by Whazoo View Post
Same experience, have owned two Bushy rifles and never had any problems with them, one was shot extensively and functions just fine.
I've owned many Busy's over the years and I haven't had any major trouble. However, the peoples on the internets says my Bushy's are junk. I think I'll go melt them down now and eat some worms.

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Old 02-18-2013, 18:44   #35
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I bought a SRC a few weeks ago and it has been flawless with 223 and 556 ammo from 50 gr to 64 grain and quality seems very good and seems accurate to me. 6 round group shot today at 100yds 50gr american eagle hollow point.
This was with a bushnell trs-25 red dot
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:37   #36
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Originally Posted by NEOH212 View Post
I've owned many Busy's over the years and I haven't had any major trouble. However, the peoples on the internets says my Bushy's are junk. I think I'll go melt them down now and eat some worms.

Internet Koolaid my friend. They say the same things about my RRAs. Every BM and WW I've been around have been fine rifles and their owners have been very happy with them.
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:06   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I'll amend my terminology- "Proper" twist depends on the application. You might be some weirdo that shoots 40 gr, for which 1/12 might be appropriate.

"Optimal" twist IMO, is 1/7, because it will stabilixe the widest variety of bullet weights (really it is effected by length, but heavier bullets are of course longer).

Basically 1/7 twist - 60g+
1/8 twist - 50g-60g
1/9 twist - 50g-

There's a line chart out there, I think by Lucky Gunner Labs, that shows the accuracy dropping off for each.
Sierra states "you can not over stabilize a good bullet". The 52 MK is more accurate than a 69 MK in a 1/7. That is a fact you can take to the bank. I'll stick with 1/7. My 1990 HBAR will shoot .60" groups with a 52 MK all day long with H335. My belief is the 1/9 is just cheaper to make?

Last edited by mgs; 02-19-2013 at 13:07..
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:16   #38
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Originally Posted by mgs View Post
Sierra states "you can not over stabilize a good bullet". The 52 MK is more accurate than a 69 MK in a 1/7. That is a fact you can take to the bank. I'll stick with 1/7. My 1990 HBAR will shoot .60" groups with a 52 MK all day long with H335. My belief is the 1/9 is just cheaper to make?
It's possible to destroy a bullet by driving it too fast at too high of a twist rate, though. It's most common with very thin jacketed varmint projectiles. I saw it done with hand loads from a bolt action when I was younger - a puff of grey about 20-50 yards down range was all that was left of the bullet, and no hole in the paper.
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Old 02-19-2013, 14:14   #39
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WW is the old bushmaster group.


I doubt much has changed, and from what I've seen, I'll not buy another WW/Bushmaster till it has.
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Old 02-21-2013, 17:43   #40
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The 52 MK is more accurate than a 69 MK in a 1/7. That is a fact you can take to the bank.
What's it worth?

Are you sure it's not just because it's longer... because that's what we're truly measuring here.

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I'll stick with 1/7.
So will everyone else with a clue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mgs View Post
My belief is the 1/9 is just cheaper to make?
You have to realize that the average dirtshooter is popping off with the cheapest garbage they can get their hands on- that means shorter projectiles (55 gr with a bimetal jacket?) and as little charge as they can get away with and still call it "ammunition" on the box.

The junk spec gun manufacturers cater to this with 1/9 barrels and HUGE gas ports.

Couple that with cheap, untested BCG components and a cheap FCG and you have a recipe for fail.

This is why if you take a junk spec gun and go balls to the wall shooting NATO spec 5.56x45mm ammunition, it will quit on you... usually in short order.
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