Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-18-2013, 19:31   #1
Dalton Wayne
CLM Number 239
Epic mustache
 
Dalton Wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 13,800
Send a message via MSN to Dalton Wayne Send a message via Skype™ to Dalton Wayne
Tell me about Remington golden sabre 40 cal

I bought Remington golden sabre 40 S&W to carry in my Glock 22, tell me about it, anyone else use it for self defense....
__________________
Sometimes I wrestle with my demons, sometimes we just snuggle.

Good people sleep peaceable in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf
Regards
DW

Last edited by Dalton Wayne; 02-18-2013 at 19:32..
Dalton Wayne is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 20:07   #2
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Remington makes good ammo. I'd trust it.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 20:10   #3
Joshhtn
The eBay Guy
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 8,090


Great stuff! I have a few G22 mags filled with them now.
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 20:56   #4
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
Fired from a P229 into a gel block covered w/4 layers of denim.
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner

Other 180gr loads test-fired that day ...

Speer 180gr ...
Caliber Corner

Federal HST1 ...
Caliber Corner

Win RA40T ... (SXT/RA40T T-Series, not the RA40T T-Series/T-Series)
Caliber Corner

Rem Express ... (the RA40SW2C load for a previous CA contract)
Caliber Corner

I've used the Rem 180 standard GS for a few years as an alternative to the Win RA40T.

Naturally, the above pics were of single shots, and who knows what repeated test shots of multiple/many test shots of the different loads would do on any given day, fired out of any given gun?
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 02-18-2013 at 21:16..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 21:07   #5
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
Some folks like to try and find the mostly LE-Only Bonded loads, and this is the 180gr Bonded version, in the same 4 layers denim/gel shot conditions ...
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner

I prefer the standard non-bonded, myself. I like the expansion, and I really don't over-concern myself with having to defeat intermediate glass (or other intermediate ) barriers ... and yes, I spent a good part of my career working in and around motor vehicles. I'm more concerned about bullet mass/weight than "bonding", and I still like to maximize the potential for expansion. That said, the new PDX1 design seems to be working well enough after some tweaking done at the reported request of the feds.

Oh yeah, the 165gr GS?
Caliber Corner

Standard non-bonded 180gr GS40SWB after defeating windshield glass and then gel?
Caliber Corner

The Bonded version (GSB40SWB), also after defeating glass in front of gel?
Caliber Corner

The standard 180gr GS didn't seem to do too badly in comparison, maybe?

The Golden Sabre has a decently subdued muzzle flash signature in low light, except for the unpredictable "sparkler, burning ember" bits ... and the sealed case mouth and primer pockets seem a good thing. The case mouth sealant can often be seen as little black smudges that ooze up and over the case mouth, but that's a cosmetic issue, I'd think.

Bottom line, I've carried and used all of those except for the HST1, and a couple others, at one time or another ... and not lost any sleep over whatever it was at the time.

(I have several boxes of the HST1 180gr I was given by a rangemaster for another agency, but I've just never gotten around to using it other than a few times for range practice.)

Personally, I'm kind of curious about seeing how the newest "belted" version of the "non-bonded" GS bullet does after it's been in-service for a while ...
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 02-18-2013 at 21:14..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 01:04   #6
LuckyNemo
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 115
Great post. .... thanks
LuckyNemo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 03:21   #7
NEOH212
Diesel Girl
 
NEOH212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North East Ohio
Posts: 9,094
A oldie but goodie.

I would feel better with something like Federal HST or Ranger T-Series or Speer Gold Dot personally.

However, the RGS isn't a bad round if it's all you have available.

Edited to add I've experienced many core-jacket separations with Golden Saber. It's one of the many reasons I don't carry it. I will say that I've never had one that didn't expand though.
__________________
When you finish speaking, don't forget to wipe.

Last edited by NEOH212; 02-19-2013 at 03:23..
NEOH212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 11:45   #8
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
I've heard a lot of talk of jacket separations in informal testing, but after attending hosted gel events over the years I haven't seen very many at all. The one I posted with the 165gr load was the only seen that particular afternoon, and a LOT of 180gr GS loads were fired in various scenarios.

To finish up the day the Rem rep used a warmed & much perforated gel block to rapid fire half a dozen rounds of the 180gr. Interestingly enough, they all penetrated to within a couple inches of each other (even fired through the unevenly fractured and perforated gel block ... all expanded as advertised ... and none of them lost their jackets.

I saw another brand lose a jacket in a glass barrier test on another day, but it wasn't a GS HPJ load.

I suspect jacket loss happens from time to time, but it's not something I worry about excessively.

I've seen a Win STHP shed its jacket, too.

I think I recall one instance of a SXT/T-Series shedding its jacket, but the separated lead core was still somewhat expanded and penetrated well (not exiting the block).

Then again, I carried a lot of different hollowpoint loads in the days before the newer hi-tech bullet designs, in revolvers & pistols, and accepted that there might be unpredictable conditions in which some jackets might be shed and/or some bullets might fragment.

FWIW, when the Rem LE rep was explaining their product during their hosted gel event last time, and he described how they were making the Bonded version. He said a flux compound was poured into the brass jacket before the lead ingot was inserted, and that the nose cavity's hollowpoint was changed a bit, generally making it less deep (but it varied depending on the caliber/bullet weight).

I think the newest "banded" HPJ design is interesting, and hope that it might help provide an optimal balance between good expansion of the "non-bonded" jacket, but maintain integrity of the lead core/jacket during rapid expansion. Interesting idea. More or less it looks like an "outside" band instead of an inside "band" produced by a cannelure.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 12:02   #9
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Great expansion!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 21:50   #10
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
Yeah, I've seen a lot of nicely expanded GS 180gr loads in different gel/test shots. Seems like a decent load.

Not as "clean burning" as some other high priced offerings, perhaps, and the occasional sparkler/embers in the muzzle blast may look a bit weird (and one landed on the sleeve of a jacket and singed the material once), but overall the GS HPJ design has withstood the test of time & usage.

I just pulled a M&P 40c from the safe and saw I'd last loaded it with the 180gr GS after my last range session. I keep alternating between the 180gr RA40T, 165gr RA40TA and the 180gr GS, just depending on whichever box is closest at hand when reloading my assorted .40's & their mags.

I dunno if I mentioned if before, but I found my 4040PD mags don't always run well with the 180gr GS loads. The wide nose cavity edge, and the notching cuts, can sometimes hang up and catch on the mag catch cutout in the mag body, causing the rest of the mag load to stop rising. The really thin 4040 mag body, and tight fit of the cartridges in it, just don't seem to be a good match. It happens.

I use other loads in that one gun with narrower nose cavities (T-Series, Gold Dot or one of the older style JHP loads).
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 02-20-2013 at 02:40..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 23:00   #11
FishyOne
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 52
Any comments comparing the two GS loads in 40S&W?

GS40SWA: 165gr @ 1150fps for 485ft-lbs
GS40SWB: 180gr @ 1015fps for 412ft-lbs

Thank you.
FishyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2013, 23:12   #12
9mm +p+
Senior Member
 
9mm +p+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 2,430
For my money Rem has really phoned it in when it comes to SD bullet tech, I'm no fan of the GS whatsoever. I'd pick just about any makers bullet over a GS, my 23 is loaded with 180 HST's, my P229 has 165 Gold dots.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum
9mm +p+ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2013, 00:03   #13
SDDL-UP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,043
I too have seen core / jacket separation in the Reminton Golden Saber bullet, but really it is still a great bullet IMO. It's not like the jacket flies off at first contact. I think it only happens after a lot of penetration in the right media, and not likely to happen in an actual self defense situation.

Good stuff.
__________________
"Arm yourself, arm a friend!"
SDDL-UP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2013, 02:46   #14
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDDL-UP View Post
... It's not like the jacket flies off at first contact. I think it only happens after a lot of penetration in the right media ....
This is the 165gr GS shot in the denim covered gel block. Notice the depth of the jacket penetration compared to the core.

Caliber Corner
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 02-20-2013 at 02:49..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2013, 02:54   #15
nikerret
Mr. Awesome
 
nikerret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 7,283
We are issued Remington Golden Saber 180gr Bonded .40 for our G22's.

I don't have an issue with it. It's the best balance of performane and cost (agency cost). I prefer the Ranger SXT/T-Series to the GS's, but I don't have a say in the primary sidearm.

I do not feel under-armed with them. I wouldn't buy them, personally, but only becasue I can find 50 Rangers for the price of 25 GS's. I also like Gold Dots, and should have 500 on the way after my recent RCBS purchase!

In the end, I have shot a lot of HP's, but never had to shoot a person. I have shot a lot of deer, and have seen better results with 165 gr Ranger T vs the 180 gr GS's; in the end, though, placement is much more important than the round you care to send.

Breath easy, you made a good choice.
__________________
-Ambition is only appreciated after success.
-3/325:Now, where's my dedicated bodyguard? Oh, yeah, he's staring back at me in the mirror.
-"Every fear hides a wish"

Last edited by nikerret; 02-20-2013 at 02:55..
nikerret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 17:35   #16
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
I wonder what the bullet-makers do to prevent jacket-core separation? Use a glue or something?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions

Last edited by SCmasterblaster; 02-24-2013 at 17:36..
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 18:04   #17
Tiro Fijo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 6,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
...I prefer the standard non-bonded, myself. I like the expansion, and I really don't over-concern myself with having to defeat intermediate glass (or other intermediate ) barriers ... and yes, I spent a good part of my career working in and around motor vehicles. I'm more concerned about bullet mass/weight than "bonding", and I still like to maximize the potential for expansion...

I concur 100%. Bonded is way overrated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 9mm +p+ View Post
For my money Rem has really phoned it in when it comes to SD bullet tech...

Although the GS is a solid performer, it has been supassed and it appears as if Rem. has gone to seed and has no interest in LE sales at this point. That's too bad as the old (and long discontinued) Secret Service load, 9mm 115 gr. +p+, was a winner. Rem. worked with the Philadelphia PD in the old days to tweak their old cup & core 9mm 115 gr. JHP. Those days are long gone.
Tiro Fijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 18:16   #18
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I wonder what the bullet-makers do to prevent jacket-core separation? Use a glue or something?
In the Remington HPJ bullet of "bonded" configuration, we were told they do 2 things to help try to prevent jacket loss.

The first thing is they insert a "flux compound" into the brass jacket before the lead ingot (core) is inserted.

The second thing they do is revise the shape & depth of the nose cavity, which helps "control" expansion under some conditions, helping to maintain bullet/core integrity when encountering some of the harder intermediate barrier materials. This design change of the nose cavity may vary depending on caliber, bullet weight and velocity.

I haven't received any details of the new "Black Belt" GS HPJ, but in the released promo info it looks like an exterior band of some sort is used to constrict the jacket material around the lead core, kind of like a belt tightened around a waist. Interesting.

Rather elegant if it works, and doesn't adversely affect accuracy.

I don't really keep up on a lot of the development in this ammunition topic, though, and I stopped trying to keep abreast of what the other companies were doing about 4-5 years ago. "Bonded" defensive ammo is sort of one of those "answers to a question" that's mostly been asked by one of the fed agencies (and not the largest) ... and lots of folks on the internet.

Whenever I've had the opportunity to get together with other instructors and armorers, it's just not something that seems to be much of a "hot topic". Occasionally, yes, but not nearly as often as some folks might expect. We'd much rather discuss training, mindset & tactics than specific calibers & ammunition (or specific guns, for that matter).

Equipment is just equipment ... and the equipment user's ability to effectively function under a wide range of potential circumstances, using good judgment and decision-making ... regardless of the equipment involved ... is arguably of more import.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 18:23   #19
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt View Post
In the Remington HPJ bullet of "bonded" configuration, we were told they do 2 things to help try to prevent jacket loss.

The first thing is they insert a "flux compound" into the brass jacket before the lead ingot (core) is inserted.

The second thing they do is revise the shape & depth of the nose cavity, which helps "control" expansion under some conditions, helping to maintain bullet/core integrity when encountering some of the harder intermediate barrier materials. This design change of the nose cavity may vary depending on caliber, bullet weight and velocity.

I haven't received any details of the new "Black Belt" GS HPJ, but in the released promo info it looks like an exterior band of some sort is used to constrict the jacket material around the lead core, kind of like a belt tightened around a waist. Interesting.

Rather elegant if it works, and doesn't adversely affect accuracy.

I don't really keep up on a lot of the development in this ammunition topic, though, and I stopped trying to keep abreast of what the other companies were doing about 4-5 years ago. "Bonded" defensive ammo is sort of one of those "answers to a question" that's mostly been asked by one of the fed agencies (and not the largest) ... and lots of folks on the internet.

Whenever I've had the opportunity to get together with other instructors and armorers, it's just not something that seems to be much of a "hot topic". Occasionally, yes, but not nearly as often as some folks might expect. We'd much rather discuss training, mindset & tactics than specific calibers & ammunition (or specific guns, for that matter).

Equipment is just equipment ... and the equipment user's ability to effectively function under a wide range of potential circumstances, using good judgment and decision-making ... regardless of the equipment involved ... is arguably of more import.
Very interesting - thanks.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 18:25   #20
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
... That's too bad as the old (and long discontinued) Secret Service load, 9mm 115 gr. +p+, was a winner. Rem. worked with the Philadelphia PD in the old days to tweak their old cup & core 9mm 115 gr. JHP. Those days are long gone.
Funny you should mention the Rem grn/wht box 115gr +P+ LE Only loads.

I was moving around some boxes earlier this morning and I found 3 boxes (50/ct) of that ammo hidden behind some other ammo.

I sort of recall having briefly used it for range/qual ammo sometime about 10-15 years ago.

I also found some Starfire, early production Rem Bonded, some frangible and some Speer GDHP I'd forgotten I'd had (a few different loadings/calibers) ... and a surprising amount of some Fed Nyclad.

I really should get organized some day.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 16:34.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 933
266 Members
667 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31