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Old 03-04-2013, 19:49   #181
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Originally Posted by Annoyinglylongname View Post
I cannot fathom why, in our uniquely American way, certain demographics decide to remain inside their own ethnic group and create a unique subculture and language.
Because they can. They don't have to assimilate to become productive because the government will support them.
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Old 03-04-2013, 19:55   #182
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the i.q. being a racial arguement is out and out pointless. if a societal cross section would like to claim they are "held down" by another, i think it is inherent on that group to prove it.

if a group feels that they are best served by being given handouts as some form of reparation, rather than being kicked in the tail to fend for themselves, and will claim victimhood at every turn, than when the day comes that our "benevolent goverment" moves on to the next group of victims, they will face demise of their own doing.

how many groups were "held down" in the early 1900s? they came to ellis island, and made a life for themselves and their families without a handout.

and as far as education. let's be honest. there are how many scholarships awarded to non-affluent youth for exactly that reason?

the entire sterotype is disgusting. living down to it is far, far worse.

off my soapbox.
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Old 03-04-2013, 19:56   #183
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Because they can. They don't have to assimilate to become productive because the government will support them.

I would say this has been a preeminent item on the progressive agenda for AT LEAST the past 50 years. We have been forcibly "adjusted" from viewing the United States as a "melting pot" to a "tossed salad."

Balkanization means divide and conquer... Cloward-Piven... You know the drill...


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Old 03-04-2013, 21:09   #184
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I would say this has been a preeminent item on the progressive agenda for AT LEAST the past 50 years. We have been forcibly "adjusted" from viewing the United States as a "melting pot" to a "tossed salad."

Balkanization means divide and conquer... Cloward-Piven... You know the drill...


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Old 03-04-2013, 23:42   #185
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Originally Posted by Annoyinglylongname View Post
I cannot fathom why, in our uniquely American way, certain demographics decide to remain inside their own ethnic group and create a unique subculture and language.
But as far as I am concerned, inability to adapt or integrate into a culture is indicative of insufficient grasp of reality. Nothing I see on rap videos runs contrary to my observation.
Not entering into a society unless it conforms to your views used to be considered antisocial behavior. Now there aren't many rules about anything, and the ones we have make no sense.
It's hard to learn correct English if you don't hear it spoken in the home. It's not just blacks. I've had white college seniors write things like, "he should have went, and he done a great job" and then get indignant when I gave them F's on their papers. Unfortunately many students and parents get indignant when you correct them. They're paying your salary so you should tell them what they want to hear. Democracy has ruined education in the U.S.
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Old 03-04-2013, 23:46   #186
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Maybe as IQ is not a measure of all types of achievement but it predicts how well one does what the Western world does; that is invent and build nuclear power plants, satellites, skyscrapers, semiconductors, etc.

We can have a never ending debate about IQ and nature versus nurture but are we willing to bet our civilization on the correct guess?

Because we cannot run the West with a population with an average IQ of 85 and throwing $ Trillions at the problem for 50 years has not worked.
IQ tests measure your ability to function in white middle class institutions. they do a very good job of that.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:52   #187
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Originally Posted by JFrame View Post
I would say this has been a preeminent item on the progressive agenda for AT LEAST the past 50 years. We have been forcibly "adjusted" from viewing the United States as a "melting pot" to a "tossed salad."

Balkanization means divide and conquer... Cloward-Piven... You know the drill...


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Old 03-05-2013, 06:57   #188
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I think there is a group of people who have made a concerted effort to keep blacks in America from mainstreaming into the rest of the country, the way other immigrant groups have done (and, yes, the blacks are immigrants, the same as everybody else).

And, they have done a pretty good job of convincing blacks that they can't make it own their own, and that they shouldn't be held responsible for their situation, and that they need to keep voting Democrat, or it will get worse.

I know as a liberal Democrat, that position will not get much traction with you.
Those groups are called Nation of Islam, NAACP, and Rainbow/Push Coaltion- they exist to keep blacks in an agitated state that blames all their problemsvon white people and systemic racism while remaining mure on the issues of ignorance, crime, illegitimacy,and violence within the AfricanAmerican Community. They do much more harm than good
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:34   #189
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Its not that blacks are less intelligent...it is that their culture in America places little to no importance on being smart, doing good in school or being well read. No to very little importance on academics or working towards a goal or planning for a future.

By way of comparison, most Indian and Asian immigrants to America place more importance on academics than do American born Anglos.

Again....it is a cultural thing...not a slam against them for actually being less smart. They simply choose not to apply themselves.

Blacks that study hard and get ahead and are intellectual are seen by black Americans as "sell-outs" or "uncle Toms" or told they are "acting white."

-brickboy240
But...what if they are? (less intelligent that is?) Many statistics and studies kind of point us in that direction, but we always use the "out" of making excuses based on environment, perceived oppression etc..

What if blacks on average really don't have the reasoning ability that whites or asians do? It doesn't make me like them or want to associate with them any more or any less. Good, friendly people are fun to be around, regardless of their test scores or skin color.

What if asians on average have much more complex reasoning ability than whites? I'm white, and that wouldn't bother me a bit to know that they are genetically, on average, more intelligent.

Why do we always make the excuse that all humans are exactly alike, and that skin color is the only difference?

It seems obvious to me that the differences are not only skin deep...we have many differences, why can't brain function be one of them?

An African Grey parrot is considered to be a very intelligent breed of parrot, and possibly THE most intelligent breed.

There are lots of other really beautiful varieties of parrots, yet they don't/can't communicate with humans like the African Grey's do..

Is that because the Grey might be more intelligent?

Or, is it because the others are afraid of being seen as "acting grey"?

Seriously, I believe they're all members of the same basic family of bird, but have many differences.

Why are humans any different, unless we use the God-Argument?

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Old 03-05-2013, 08:34   #190
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Originally Posted by LAWDOGKMS View Post
But...what if they are? (less intelligent that is?) Many statistics and studies kind of point us in that direction, but we always use the "out" of making excuses based on environment, perceived oppression etc..

What if blacks on average really don't have the reasoning ability that whites or asians do? It doesn't make me like them or want to associate with them any more or any less. Good, friendly people are fun to be around, regardless of their test scores or skin color.

What if asians on average have much more complex reasoning ability than whites? I'm white, and that wouldn't bother me a bit to know that they are genetically, on average, more intelligent.

Why do we always make the excuse that all humans are exactly alike, and that skin color is the only difference?

It seems obvious to me that the differences are not only skin deep...we have many differences, why can't brain function be one of them?

An African Grey parrot is considered to be a very intelligent breed of parrot, and possibly THE most intelligent breed.

There are lots of other really beautiful varieties of parrots, yet they don't/can't communicate with humans like the African Grey's do..

Is that because the Grey might be more intelligent?

Or, is it because the others are afraid of being seen as "acting grey"?

Seriously, I believe they're all members of the same basic family of bird, but have many differences.

Why are humans any different, unless we use the God-Argument?
Nobody's skin color makes them inherently more or less intelligent. Certain races stress education more than others. Education is not stressed in the homes of many black families, most of which are single parent homes.


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Old 03-05-2013, 08:56   #191
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Nobody's skin color makes them inherently more or less intelligent. Certain races stress education more than others. Education is not stressed in the homes of many black families, most of which are single parent homes.


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Skin color? No. However, intelligence is largely genetic and there is no reason to believe that some races can possess genes lending themselves to being more or less intelligent.

That said, its a non-starter as a discussion because enough smart and dumb people of every ethnic background exist to make it irrelevant.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:14   #192
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Nobody's skin color makes them inherently more or less intelligent. Certain races stress education more than others. Education is not stressed in the homes of many black families, most of which are single parent homes.


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Exactly, it's not about skin color, but I see you're using the same tired argument.

Skin color is just another factor that differentiates (i hate to use this word, but can't think of a better one)...different breeds..

In my opinion, different races are different in many ways, facial features, body types, thought processes, reasoning ability, social mannerisms, aggressiveness, athletic ability....and...skin color.

And...I also believe that the non-physical characteristics are not solely influenced by environment, but that different races are bioligically programmed to a degree...

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Old 03-05-2013, 11:39   #193
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Originally Posted by Annoyinglylongname View Post
I cannot fathom why, in our uniquely American way, certain demographics decide to remain inside their own ethnic group and create a unique subculture and language.
But as far as I am concerned, inability to adapt or integrate into a culture is indicative of insufficient grasp of reality. Nothing I see on rap videos runs contrary to my observation.
Not entering into a society unless it conforms to your views used to be considered antisocial behavior. Now there aren't many rules about anything, and the ones we have make no sense.
It isn't unique to America, but if, as the figures make very likely, some demographic groups are limited to the bottom of the economic or aspirational spectrum, with the exception of a small proportion of their number, the majority has no significant alternative but retreat into a sub-culture. Since some sub culture has to be in the bottom position in any multi-racial or multi-cultural society this will always be a fundamental problem of such societies.

The only possibility of getting round this would be the use of genetic selection of gametes. This would be expensive but not as expensive as the alternative of doing nothing. It has the immediate problem of the fact that the technology is not yet available but in a few years it should be. A secondary problem is that the same technology could hardly be refused to other demographic groups and they might then improve enough to maintain or even increase the gap. An additional problem would be religious objections and socialist objections since they would not want to loose a large part of their voting demographic.

What fascinating times we live in!

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:02   #194
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Skin color? No. However, intelligence is largely genetic and there is no reason to believe that some races can possess genes lending themselves to being more or less intelligent.

That said, its a non-starter as a discussion because enough smart and dumb people of every ethnic background exist to make it irrelevant.
All characteristics tend to become optimized across a population in a given environment relative to other populations in other environments. Intelligence is just one characteristic amongst many. For whatever reasons the ranking starts with Eastern Asiatics closely followed by Jews, then white Europeans with Northern Europeans maybe two points ahead of Southern Europeans. This list and its continuation has already been provided by someone above.

These facts are fairly indisputable, but we don't know whether some of the genetic variations are unique to one group or another or whether the same variations just occur at higher or lower frequencies in different groups. The fact that extremely clever people can be found in any group makes no significant difference to this since the IQ distribution curve gets very thin at the top end. What matters is the proportion of bright and very bright to the general population. It is akin to your idea of the productive and non productive parts of society. Depending on precisely what you mean when you say, " possess genes lending ....", you might be correct or not.

We also know that general IQ is the most predictive measure of excellence at any job. It beats experience within quite a short time since the more intelligent will develop ways of doing the job better and will be better at adapting to problems. I am not talking about high ability here but just IQ above the norm for a particular occupation. And, of course, it is not the only factor, just the most important one on average. The performance of the job might appear superficially the same until it is studied in detail.

It is also worth pointing out that at least one factor affecting extreme ability is a mental defect in all but the very bright. Einstein was almost certainly an example. If we compare him to Richard Feynman we see that this is by no means essential to extreme ability.

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:19   #195
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In Midwestern cities, like the one I lived in until a few years ago, blacks were just one more wave of immigrants who came to try to make a better life for themselves. Prior to blacks, Germans, Poles, Irish, Italians, Russians, Asians, people from all over the world came to work.

Each of those groups faced discrimination and prejudice when they arrived. The first generations took menial jobs and worked hard so their children could go to school and do better than they did. In most cases, that did happen. The children learned English, got educations and assimilated into society. By the second or third generation, they had better jobs, were sending their kids to college, starting and owning their own businesses, buying houses. Basically just living the American Dream.

In the late 40's and throughout the 50's and 60's, blacks were actually recruited by northern cities to come to take the plentiful factories jobs that were there in the booming industrial years after WWII. They came by the thousands.

By the late 70's, though, those factory jobs started to dry up, and a few years later, they started to disappear. Their children could not get those jobs. And, for some reason, their kids did not improve themselves from what their parents did. They did not learn standard English. The daughters had lots of kids and went on welfare. The sons loafed around, sold drugs, and pretty much just mooched off their welfare girlfriends.

Not only did they not go further in school than their parents did, but in many cases, they did not even graduate from high school.

Meanwhile, ensuing groups of immigrants, from Asia, the Middle East, the former Soviet Union and even illegals from Mexico, came to the Midwest after blacks did. Just as all of their predecessors, except blacks did, they have generally worked hard at whatever jobs they could find so that their children could do better. Their children tend to learn English, get better educations than their parents had, and get better jobs.

As the King of Siam would have said, is a puzzlement.
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:42   #196
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Originally Posted by LAWDOGKMS View Post
Exactly, it's not about skin color, but I see you're using the same tired argument.

Skin color is just another factor that differentiates (i hate to use this word, but can't think of a better one)...different breeds..

In my opinion, different races are different in many ways, facial features, body types, thought processes, reasoning ability, social mannerisms, aggressiveness, athletic ability....and...skin color.

And...I also believe that the non-physical characteristics are not solely influenced by environment, but that different races are bioligically programmed to a degree...
And where is your evidence that says that skin color is directly related to natural intelligence that's completely disconnected from environmental influence? I will save you the trouble, it doesn't exist. Any child, white, black, Hispanic or Asian, that's raised by a young, single mother with no education of her own will be at a huge disadvantage.

The fact that the black community has an out of wedlock birth rate of over 70% is the root cause of their cultural problem.


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Old 03-05-2013, 15:38   #197
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Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
And where is your evidence that says that skin color is directly related to natural intelligence that's completely disconnected from environmental influence? I will save you the trouble, it doesn't exist. Any child, white, black, Hispanic or Asian, that's raised by a young, single mother with no education of her own will be at a huge disadvantage.

The fact that the black community has an out of wedlock birth rate of over 70% is the root cause of their cultural problem.


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I don't believe I said completely disconnected and it was a mistake if I did. I do believe that it plays a factor, but a much smaller factor than what is hyped.

It is just another excuse..
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Old 03-05-2013, 16:54   #198
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Anybody here read the book "The Bell Curve" ????

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve

It created an uproar...


"Many of the assertions put forth and conclusions reached by the authors are very controversial, ranging from the relationships between low measured intelligence and anti-social behavior, to the observed relationship between low African-American test scores (compared to whites and East Asians) and genetic factors in intelligence abilities. The book was released and received with a large public response. In the first several months of its release, 400,000 copies of the book were sold around the world. Several thousand reviews and commentaries have been written in the short time since the book's publication. The Bell Curve argues that:
  1. Intelligence exists and is accurately measurable across racial, language, and national boundaries.
  2. Intelligence is one of, if not the most, important factors correlated to economic, social, and overall success in the United States, and its importance is increasing.
  3. Intelligence is largely (40% to 80%) heritable.
  4. No one has so far been able to manipulate IQ to a significant degree through changes in environmental factors—except for child adoption and that they conclude is not large in the long term—and in light of these failures, such approaches are becoming less promising.
  5. The USA has been in denial of these facts. A better public understanding of the nature of intelligence and its social correlates is necessary to guide future policy decisions."
To combat this stigma, another writer published the book "The Audacity .... whatever"

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Old 03-06-2013, 08:03   #199
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IQ tests are biased, is the common excuse. But, for some reason, no one has ever been able to design a IQ test that is biased in such a manner that the racial breakdown differs significantly from previous tests.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:07   #200
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[*]No one has so far been able to manipulate IQ to a significant degree through changes in environmental factors—except for child adoption and that they conclude is not large in the long term—and in light of these failures, such approaches are becoming less promising.
That's only true if you fail to understand how IQ is calculated. IQ scores are adjusted so the mean score is always 100 so it doesn't matter what the raw scores (i.e., actual number of right and right answers) are. This means that it is mathematically impossible for the IQ scores to vary. However the raw scores have been rising for decades as our educational system has improved. A raw score that would give on an IQ of 140 in 1940 would only give one an IQ score of 100 in 2000. Specifically, a raw score that would have placed one in the sub-genius category in 1940 would only place that person in the normal category in 2000. Look up the "Flynn effect" if you want to know more. What The Bell Curve overlooks is that correlation does not imply causation.
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