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Old 03-13-2013, 07:53   #251
IvanVic
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Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
Without even reading it, I am going to go out on a limb, and bet that it says that whatever is wrong with blacks today, it is white people's fault. Am I right?
For once, we agree. I wonder what their solution actually is, though. They're always blaming whites, what do they want, exactly? I thought when a black guy was elected president they might have stopped this nonsense, but I'm still hearing it.


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Old 03-13-2013, 08:11   #252
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One more thing to throw in the mix.

http://takimag.com/article/tackling_...#axzz2NMMHefJq
Scores of Asians graduated Valedictorian from HS during the 80s and 90s, but for many years, California public refused to accept all of them, citing quotas. They thought being Valedictorian is an automatic ticket to UCLA, etc. It wasn't so, due to quotas. I heard many complaints. they, by and large, didn't want to make a public spectacle of it, were trying to live and get along. I heard the complaints on private circles, but have since lost touch with whatever became of it.


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Old 03-13-2013, 08:16   #253
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Haven't read that book, yet, but, being familiar with other stuff Sowell has written, I doubt it will come off as you predict.

Just guessing.
havent read it either, but also based on other stuff I have seen from Sowell, I am guessing black people are to blame for black people problems, and white people need to quit "helping" black people.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:21   #254
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Without even reading it, I am going to go out on a limb, and bet that it says that whatever is wrong with blacks today, it is white people's fault. Am I right?
Not even close. Your bias is showing.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:44   #255
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Build a man a fire and he'll be warm tonight.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Wait, no, wrong one.


Give a man a fish...
Teach a man to fish...
bo do nu quan lot nam tui ngu cao cap cho be thoi trang cong so gia re vay lien cong so nu chup anh thoi trang dep
We need to stop giving away fish.
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

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Old 03-13-2013, 11:32   #256
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Give a man a fish...
Teach a man to fish...

We need to stop giving away fish.
But if you continue to give away fish, you'd control the man, get the vote, and be in power to give somebody else's fish to those men.
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:19   #257
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Not even close. Your bias is showing.
So, don't keep us in suspense. Who, then, according to Sowell, is responsible for the black culture of violence, mysoginism, and lack of ambition?
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Old 03-13-2013, 15:27   #258
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So, don't keep us in suspense. Who, then, according to Sowell, is responsible for the black culture of violence, mysoginism, and lack of ambition?
I'm not going to to tell you. Read it if you want to know.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:31   #259
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One more time, define intelligence.

......
Intelligence is the mental quality that allows individuals to solve novel problems of life with a high rate of success without trial and error. As many of those problems require prior learning and understanding, intelligence is also a factor in learning and understanding, and so intelligence is a recursive competence. You need intelligence to learn and understand, but you need learning and understanding to apply intelligence to novel problems

We can suspect, with good reason, that intelligence is multifactorial - different people are good at solving different kinds of problems which is not a simple matter of experience. We can also suspect that there is an underlying general intelligence which acts in conjunction with special factors. We find evidence for this in individuals with high competences in one direction but low competences elsewhere. We also find individuals with high general competences except for some specific direction.

IQ is then an attempt to put a score or scores onto intelligence depending on whether the particular system used attempts to combine all of the individual competences it attempts to measure into one number, which depends on the weighting given to the individual scores, or, more realistically, gives separate scores for separate competences.

IQ is thus what IQ tests measure. No more and no less!

Even though this is a step away from intelligence, just the general, unspecific, IQ score is the strongest determinant of success at doing any job at any level. That is, it beats experience and it beats interview selection.

Within that limit, it is perfectly possible to devise questions and test them against individuals known to be of superior, average, or inferior intelligence by reason of their occupational attainment and review by their peers to establish which questions are answered easily by everyone, by only some proportion or by only a small proportion. In general this ranking should match the superior, average and inferior test groups. By multivariate analysis we can even isolate various distinct competences within such questions rather than guessing at what they might be.

Such questions can be made sufficiently abstract or diagrammatic to be culture free for all but the higher levels. If we used them properly within schools they would be sufficiently powerful to identify those who might be capable of such higher levels if their culture could be overcome. There is no reason at all why tests should be compiled based on culture specific knowledge until we are involved in testing for the highest levels and specific educational knowledge which is a necessary precursor to success, as is the case for course specific SATS.

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Old 03-13-2013, 19:41   #260
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Intelligence is the mental quality that allows individuals to solve novel problems of life with a high rate of success without trial and error. As many of those problems require prior learning and understanding, intelligence is also a factor in learning and understanding, and so intelligence is a recursive competence. You need intelligence to learn and understand, but you need learning and understanding to apply intelligence to novel problems
Therefore it's context specific and requires an understanding of the culture in which that context occurs.

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We can suspect, with good reason, that intelligence is multifactorial - different people are good at solving different kinds of problems which is not a simple matter of experience. We can also suspect that there is an underlying general intelligence which acts in conjunction with special factors.
No.

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We find evidence for this in individuals with high competences in one direction but low competences elsewhere. We also find individuals with high general competences except for some specific direction.
This contradicts what you just wrote to which I answered no. People have been looking for G (general intelligence) since around 1900 and have yet to define it discretely enough to measure it. An ambiguous premise begets ambiguous questions which beget ambiguous answers which yield ambiguous results.

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IQ is then an attempt to put a score or scores onto intelligence depending on whether the particular system used attempts to combine all of the individual competences it attempts to measure into one number, which depends on the weighting given to the individual scores, or, more realistically, gives separate scores for separate competences.

IQ is thus what IQ tests measure. No more and no less!
Obviously.

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Even though this is a step away from intelligence, just the general, unspecific, IQ score is the strongest determinant of success at doing any job at any level. That is, it beats experience and it beats interview selection.
You're right. That's not intelligence. It's achievement (i.e., mastery of the material being tested for).

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Within that limit, it is perfectly possible to devise questions and test them against individuals known to be of superior, average, or inferior intelligence by reason of their occupational attainment and review by their peers to establish which questions are answered easily by everyone, by only some proportion or by only a small proportion. In general this ranking should match the superior, average and inferior test groups. By multivariate analysis we can even isolate various distinct competences within such questions rather than guessing at what they might be.
The limit of which you speak is enculturation, not intelligence. You can test adaptation to a certain culture. That's what IQ tests do.

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Such questions can be made sufficiently abstract or diagrammatic to be culture free for all but the higher levels.
So you admit you can't test for higher order thinking skills (l.e., higher levels of intelligence) outside a cultural component.

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If we used them properly within schools they would be sufficiently powerful to identify those who might be capable of such higher levels if their culture could be overcome.
If used in schools, they would test the degree to which the person learned what the school wanted them to learn. Of course students raised by school teachers in that culture would do better than children of Kalahari Bushmen because the school is the natural environment for students of teachers but an alien environment for the Bushmen. On the other hand, if you dropped the teachers' kids in the Kalahari they wouldn't be considered overly intelligent and would have trouble surviving on their own.

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There is no reason at all why tests should be compiled based on culture specific knowledge
Give me a sample question with no cultural contest. If you write it in English, then it's within the limit of English speaking people so it's culturally specific.

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until we are involved in testing for the highest levels and specific educational knowledge which is a necessary precursor to success, as is the case for course specific SATS.

English
So one more time you admit that we can't test higher level thinking skills outside a cultural context. That's a lot of writing to just say you agree with me. In the future try to be less loquacious.
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Old 03-14-2013, 05:29   #261
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Blah blah blah.....

"I don't like the outcome of the tests, so the tests must be biased."

Facts are facts. The bell curve exists and we see the results of that fact around us every day.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:22   #262
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Therefore it's context specific and requires an understanding of the culture in which that context occurs.
I was talking about intelligence and not IQ. Intelligence relates to the real world and the real world cannot be understood or mentally manipulated without knowledge of that world. What we see as intelligence is the facility with which different individuals operate within their real world, which might include such abstract things as mathematics and so on.

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No.
Are you are denying the multifactorial model of intelligence?

Quote:
This contradicts what you just wrote to which I answered no. People have been looking for G (general intelligence) since around 1900 and have yet to define it discretely enough to measure it. An ambiguous premise begets ambiguous questions which beget ambiguous answers which yield ambiguous results.
Not so! If there is a general intelligence which forms a basis for specific intelligences it would naturally be very difficult to disentangle it in an unambiguous manner since all questions must involve specific intelligences.

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Obviously.
Indeed, but it is not obvious to everyone and you were the one asking for a definition.

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You're right. That's not intelligence. It's achievement (i.e., mastery of the material being tested for).
No! You have completely failed to understand this one. Whatever it is that so many tests measure as G, an individual put into a working environment with no prior experience of the work concerned will develop methods and insights from the application of his own intelligence which enable him to out perform those of lesser scores for G, regardless of the fact that some of those others have a greater initial mastery of the material - that is, the job.

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The limit of which you speak is enculturation, not intelligence. You can test adaptation to a certain culture. That's what IQ tests do.
It s what SOME IQ tests do.

Quote:
So you admit you can't test for higher order thinking skills (l.e., higher levels of intelligence) outside a cultural component.
It is a practical question if we are looking for a means to predict future performance in some particular field. At the highest levels of a specific subject, say theoretical physics, performance is a function of more than IQ. It depends on a mastery of and ready mental access to a wealth of subject knowledge. It also depends on the ability to both use and question that knowledge. It is only possible to test this within the context of that knowledge. Such advanced performance also depends on extended concentration on a particular problem which might extend for days, months or years and clearly this is not testable within an IQ type test.

Quote:
If used in schools, they would test the degree to which the person learned what the school wanted them to learn.
That would be an incompetent way in which to use IQ tests unless all students were of the same culture. The competent way to use them is to identify those students whose performance is not matching the expectations of performance provided by their IQ scores and then take remedial action.

Quote:
Of course students raised by school teachers in that culture would do better than children of Kalahari Bushmen because the school is the natural environment for students of teachers but an alien environment for the Bushmen. On the other hand, if you dropped the teachers' kids in the Kalahari they wouldn't be considered overly intelligent and would have trouble surviving on their own.
Of course! But you are confusing performance and IQ which is no more than a rough measure of the potential to perform.

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Give me a sample question with no cultural contest. If you write it in English, then it's within the limit of English speaking people so it's culturally specific.
I cannot believe that you have failed to see innumerable IQ questions that are entirely diagrammatic. It is true that children will have to be taught how to see the kind of logic within the diagram, but, after a short explanation, all start equal with no need for English language skills.

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So one more time you admit that we can't test higher level thinking skills outside a cultural context. That's a lot of writing to just say you agree with me. In the future try to be less loquacious.
I have already answered that question and I don't agree with you. As you have failed to understand that, I have clearly not been loquacious enough. Within the scope of most things where an IQ test is useful, culturally free IQ tests will work in some areas and culturally specific tests will work in others. There is a place for both. That does not mean that all IQ tests are culturally biased.

Incidentally, I see no need for your descent into minor abuse and I am surprised by it.

English

PS By counting lines in the above, our relative loquacity is approximately 39 to 26 or 3:2 with me 50% more loquacious and you with 33% better brevity. As the only thing that matters is being understood, these scores mean little of nothing. Over the thread, I think you have written far more than me, but much of it has been repetitious.

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Old 03-14-2013, 08:42   #263
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Originally Posted by English View Post
I was talking about intelligence and not IQ. Intelligence relates to the real world and the real world cannot be understood or mentally manipulated without knowledge of that world. What we see as intelligence is the facility with which different individuals operate within their real world, which might include such abstract things as mathematics and so on.

Are you are denying the multifactorial model of intelligence?


Not so! If there is a general intelligence which forms a basis for specific intelligences it would naturally be very difficult to disentangle it in an unambiguous manner since all questions must involve specific intelligences.


Indeed, but it is not obvious to everyone and you were the one asking for a definition.



No! You have completely failed to understand this one. Whatever it is that so many tests measure as G, an individual put into a working environment with no prior experience of the work concerned will develop methods and insights from the application of his own intelligence which enable him to out perform those of lesser scores for G, regardless of the fact that some of those others have a greater initial mastery of the material - that is, the job.


It s what SOME IQ tests do.


It is a practical question if we are looking for a means to predict future performance in some particular field. At the highest levels of a specific subject, say theoretical physics, performance is a function of more than IQ. It depends on a mastery of and ready mental access to a wealth of subject knowledge. It also depends on the ability to both use and question that knowledge. It is only possible to test this within the context of that knowledge. Such advanced performance also depends on extended concentration on a particular problem which might extend for days, months or years and clearly this is not testable within an IQ type test.


That would be an incompetent way in which to use IQ tests unless all students were of the same culture. The competent way to use them is to identify those students whose performance is not matching the expectations of performance provided by their IQ scores and then take remedial action.


Of course! But you are confusing performance and IQ which is no more than a rough measure of the potential to perform.



I cannot believe that you have failed to see innumerable IQ questions that are entirely diagrammatic. It is true that children will have to be taught how to see the kind of logic within the diagram, but, after a short explanation, all start equal with no need for English language skills.



I have already answered that question and I don't agree with you. As you have failed to understand that, I have clearly not been loquacious enough. Within the scope of most things where an IQ test is useful, culturally free IQ tests will work in some areas and culturally specific tests will work in others. There is a place for both. That does not mean that all IQ tests are culturally biased.

Incidentally, I see no need for your descent into minor abuse and I am surprised by it.

English

PS By counting lines in the above, our relative loquacity is approximately 39 to 26 or 3:2 with me 50% more loquacious and you with 33% better brevity. As the only thing that matters is being understood, these scores mean little of nothing. Over the thread, I think you have written far more than me, but much of it has been repetitious.
You're entirely too much work.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:57   #264
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...And English wins on a T.K.O.


Political Issues


.
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Old 03-14-2013, 13:43   #265
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm tonight.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Wait, no, wrong one.


Give a man a fish...
And he will eat for a day

Teach a man to fish...
And he will sit in a boat drinking beer all day

We need to stop giving away fish.
Realistically that is the outcome.

I prefer,

Build a man a fire and
and he will stay warm for a night.

Set a man on a fire
and he will discover motivation.
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Old 03-14-2013, 13:49   #266
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Realistically that is the outcome.

I prefer,

Build a man a fire and
and he will stay warm for a night.

Set a man on a fire
and he will discover motivation.
...And as Richard Pryor was quoted as saying (some time after he had set himself on fire while free-basing cocaine): "I did the 100-yard dash in 5 seconds flat. Fire is a great motivator." Political Issues


.
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Old 03-14-2013, 14:32   #267
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...And as Richard Pryor was quoted as saying (some time after he had set himself on fire while free-basing cocaine): "I did the 100-yard dash in 5 seconds flat. Fire is a great motivator." Political Issues


.
" ...."Fire" should be an Olympic event."

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Old 03-14-2013, 18:26   #268
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Given free access to high-level education and political power, as the ruling class in many African countries have had for several decades and more, the result has been, uh, well, I guess you could say "somewhat disappointing" if you wanted to be kind. Extreme tribal-based violence, abject poverty for the majority (much more the case now than before "self-rule"), rampant disease, continuing widespread ignorance, savaging of the natural environment, extreme corruption...in short, disasters everywhere.

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Old 03-15-2013, 05:11   #269
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Given free access to high-level education and political power, as the ruling class in many African countries have had for several decades and more, the result has been, uh, well, I guess you could say "somewhat disappointing" if you wanted to be kind. Extreme tribal-based violence, abject poverty for the majority (much more the case now than before "self-rule"), rampant disease, continuing widespread ignorance, savaging of the natural environment, extreme corruption...in short, disasters everywhere.
Much like Washington DC, Detroit, Atlanta, Memphis, New Orleans, etc......

I sense a pattern here.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:16   #270
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Much like Washington DC, Detroit, Atlanta, Memphis, New Orleans, etc......

I sense a pattern here.
My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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Old 03-15-2013, 05:25   #271
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My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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Political Issues


You tell'em Ivan.



Political Issues

Yeah, you tell'em.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:33   #272
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This discussion of measuring IQ has strayed way off from the OP's original contention. Young black males commit gun violence at an astoundingly high rate.

Those same black males also tend to be uneducated. They may or may not tend to have lower than average intelligence.

But you cannot say that causes the gun crimes. All races and cultures in America have substantial numbers of dumb and uneducated young males, but they are not out there shooting people.


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Old 03-15-2013, 07:12   #273
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My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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Your guess would be wrong, sport. I was bussed for over 3 hours a day into a formerly all-black inner city school as part of court-ordered desegregation measures in the 1970's. I served in the military for 21 years. I served in the federal government for over 30 years, combined service. I have had plenty of exposure to "black culture".

You can try and claim that the ills of "black culture" are all the fault of oppression by "da man" all you want. Calling a bird a fish can't make it swim.

Challenge: Show us an example of a successful minority-run city in America - one with low crime, low political corruption, successful and well-run social services, and proper facilities maintenance. I'll be waiting right here........

Let me save you some trouble. When losing an argument, yell "Dat's Racisss!"
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:43   #274
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Your guess would be wrong, sport. I was bussed for over 3 hours a day into a formerly all-black inner city school as part of court-ordered desegregation measures in the 1970's. I served in the military for 21 years. I served in the federal government for over 30 years, combined service. I have had plenty of exposure to "black culture".

You can try and claim that the ills of "black culture" are all the fault of oppression by "da man" all you want. Calling a bird a fish can't make it swim.

Challenge: Show us an example of a successful minority-run city in America - one with low crime, low political corruption, successful and well-run social services, and proper facilities maintenance. I'll be waiting right here........

Let me save you some trouble. When losing an argument, yell "Dat's Racisss!"
Our shotgun approach to racial problems has always been a disaster. The Civil War was an unnecessary disaster. The British bought all their salves and released them. We had to have a civil war from which the country still hasn't recovered. The forced integration you endured was a disaster. Students in all Black schools weren't academically or socially ready ready to attend white schools but were forced to anyway. Busing white students to black schools was criminal. It denied proper educations to some students and helped no one. It also increased racial tensions.

However, as for well run cities, Iv'e visited Atlanta several times. It seems to be well run. I realize that's not the same as living there.

The problem with places like Detroit is that once the underclass starts taking over, those with money and talent leave. The fact that much of the underclass in failing cities is black is an ancillary issue since black people tend to have less money and mobility to begin with. Black people with talent and money leave these places as well. People like Tiger Woods don't live in places like inner city Detroit. They live with the rest of us. Chicago's been a mess since Al Capone. It's the most angry city I've ever visited and it's not just the Black people who are angry. Chicago should put Valium in its water supply.
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Last edited by muscogee; 03-15-2013 at 07:56..
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:47   #275
Gunboat1
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Iv'e visited Atlanta several times. It seems to be well run. I realize that's not the same as living there.

The problem with places like Detroit is that once the underclass starts taking over, those with money and talent leave. The fact that much of the underclass in failing cities is black is an ancillary issue since black people tend to have less money and mobility to begin with. Black people with talent and money leave these places as well. People like Tiger Woods don't live in places like inner city Detroit. They live with the rest of us. Chicago's been a mess since Al Capone. It's the most angry city I've ever visited.
Not metro Atlanta, the city of Atlanta. It's a craphole. It makes the case by contrast with its suburbs.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42