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Old 03-06-2013, 10:08   #201
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
IQ tests are biased, is the common excuse. But, for some reason, no one has ever been able to design a IQ test that is biased in such a manner that the racial breakdown differs significantly from previous tests.
IQ test always find what the designers of the IQ test expect to find. If they don't then the test is declared invalid.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:16   #202
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I don't know about the whole IQ test debacle or whether one race is actually smarter than the other.

However....I have noticed that on the whole, Anglos (and some other races) place more importance on academics and education and most of black America does not.

This does not necessarily mean whites are smarter than blacks...but one race tends to favor or hold in importance the concept of being educated/academics and the other (for the most part) does not.

BTW, it does NOT make me racist to say this so don't bother with the flames...ok?

-brickboy240

I have seen statistics saying that black people who move to America from Africa are more successful here than those born here. Possibly related to the anti-education culture you mention.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:17   #203
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
IQ test always find what the designers of the IQ test expect to find. If they don't then the test is declared invalid.
That doesn't seem to contain an actual response to what Razorsharp said.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:24   #204
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Not meaning to muddy the water more than some already have, I would like to inject the thinking of Howard Gardner and see what this august group thinks of the concept of Multiple Intelligences and that might impact our understanding of the issue.

http://www.answers.com/topic/intelli...-intelligences

For instance, one may well be illiterate and incapable of balancing a checkbook or successfully emerging from a job interview, but be an absolute whiz in criminal organization and illegal behaviors.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:30   #205
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I have seen statistics saying that black people who move to America from Africa are more successful here than those born here. Possibly related to the anti-education culture you mention.

Charles Payne has said that one of the most difficult hurdles he faced as a black child was the peer pressure from other blacks who tried to demand he abandon whitey's ways and become one of them. He was berated often for striving to become educated, getting good grades, and thus working to become successful.

I think that anti-education, counter-productive, behavior afflicts more than a few who are black and work hard at being successful.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:48   #206
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
That doesn't seem to contain an actual response to what Razorsharp said.
It explains why all IQ test find the same things.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:55   #207
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Originally Posted by Skyhook View Post
Not meaning to muddy the water more than some already have, I would like to inject the thinking of Howard Gardner and see what this august group thinks of the concept of Multiple Intelligences and that might impact our understanding of the issue.

http://www.answers.com/topic/intelli...-intelligences

For instance, one may well be illiterate and incapable of balancing a checkbook or successfully emerging from a job interview, but be an absolute whiz in criminal organization and illegal behaviors.
Gardner has blown the field wide open. General thinking today is that IQ is the ability to adapt to your environment. That's an admission that IQ has a strong environmental context. Yet we still cling to the idea that IQ consists of a few specific constructs familiar to everyone.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:25   #208
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That's only true if you fail to understand how IQ is calculated. IQ scores are adjusted so the mean score is always 100 so it doesn't matter what the raw scores (i.e., actual number of right and right answers) are. This means that it is mathematically impossible for the IQ scores to vary. However the raw scores have been rising for decades as our educational system has improved. A raw score that would give on an IQ of 140 in 1940 would only give one an IQ score of 100 in 2000. Specifically, a raw score that would have placed one in the sub-genius category in 1940 would only place that person in the normal category in 2000. Look up the "Flynn effect" if you want to know more. What The Bell Curve overlooks is that correlation does not imply causation.
What I think you are overlooking is significant peripheral information. If you look at the IQ distribution of people of Polish descent in the USA you find a distribution below the average white USA distribution. This is because a very large proportion of the ancestors of those of Polish descent were brought over as indentured laborers to build the railways. That is, they were selected from people of substantially below average Polish IQ. Their descendants carry that inheritance. If you compare the IQ distribution of Poles in Poland with the White distribution in the USA, they are much the same.

The same thing happens in reverse for the Irish. The Irish who chose to emigrate to the USA were above average in IQ and what the Kennedy family called "vigor" - they were prepared to take the risk for the chance of a better life and were smart enough and hard working enough to make it work. They took their IQ with them and passed it on to their descendants. The IQ of the Irish in Ireland was somewhat reduced as a result but the IQ of those of Irish descent living in England is significantly lower than that because most came over as laborers, much like the Poles to the USA.

A really deprived childhood and poor diet will reduce the expression of genetic IQ. Romanian orphans are a sad example, though the data is skewed by below normal children which were abandoned to the state. Given moderately similar general environments, identical twins have closely matched IQs, but non identical twins are no more similar than with other siblings.

There can be almost no doubt that IQ distribution is racially and sub racially related from one group to another. From an evolutionary view point it would be astounding if that were not so. At the same time it is obvious that the expression of IQ relative to the genetic determinants of IQ can be significantly depressed by culture. It is very probably that this is happening with very many blacks in the USA, but this is a chicken and egg problem. Their lower than average IQ influences their culture and positions it at the bottom of the socio economic scale. This is not a pleasant place for any individual or group to be. A relatively small proportion have the IQ and family support to get out of that trap, but the rest still want the good things in life so crime is the only route to those things. You have to be clever to be a criminal and not end up in prison and that is what happens to the majority of men in the 15 to 35 age group.

The women in this age group, the normal child bearing and rearing age have to compete hard to get a man on a good basis. The result is that they get men an bad bases. Marriage is relatively rare and frequently breaks down. The majority of children are brought up in poor single parent families with no interest from the biological fathers. This is a self perpetuating system. Low average IQ leads to crime and imprisonment of young men. Low average IQ leads to young men who see no benefit in raising a family when they can get enough women to have sex with them with little effort and no costs. Boys grow up despising women as slags. This leads to cultural impoverishment which produces children of reduced expressed IQ and poor cultural values which feeds back into the obvious vicious circle.

That is what is happening but what can be done about it in anything like practical terms is hard to see. Operation Head Start turned out to be a complete waste of money and other resources. Even if something could be found to reduce the IQ gap it is almost certain that the gap would remain and the total problem would be much the same. I can think of policies of a totally politically incorrect nature, probably to conservatives as well as liberals, but it is most unlikely that any government would even try to implement them.

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Old 03-06-2013, 12:30   #209
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I have seen statistics saying that black people who move to America from Africa are more successful here than those born here. Possibly related to the anti-education culture you mention.
Also related to the fact that the original slaves were partly those who were not bright enough to avoid being caught by the slave traders and were partly those sold by their own tribes as not being bright enough to want to keep. That is, their ancestry brought lower than average IQ relative to their area of Africa with them. Then when they got to the USA the brighter ones would be seen as dangerous and culled by their owners.

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Old 03-06-2013, 12:36   #210
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Trying to blame the problem on any one race is just simply wrong.
No, you'd be wrong, and fail greatly.

Statistically, remove the black population from the crime stats and we'd be a lot like Belgium.

Oh and the prisons? They wouldn't be completely empty, but you'd more clearly be able to hear the crickets chirp.

Fact.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:45   #211
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I suspect that if we ceased using public money to support other people's children, most of these problems would cease over the long run, without regard to and irrespective of race.

When the dependent classes eventually died off due to attrition, society would re-order itself naturally, and for the better.


Without doing so, maintaining the staus quo, I believe everything else is futile.
Genius. We can start by eliminating the poorly named "Earned income tax credit". Welfare via the IRS. Redistributive. Or as I like to call it, theft. To fund the welfare state helping illiterate buffoons pay for kids they shouldnt have had in the first place. Why is my money is being forcibly confiscated for this again?
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:48   #212
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I would urge all reading this thread to read Charles Murray's book: "Coming Apart - The state of white America 1960 - 2010". Its a very easy read an explains in simple terms what is wrong with the country today. It studies only whites, because that represents the data that is available for the time period. But it then goes on to compare that to Blacks and other minorities and explains that the problems are not skin color perse but the social and educational issues. While we see these problems manifested today in minorities, they are really no different that what was seen years ago in certain white people with certain easily identified characteristics. It is an education to read this book.
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:11   #213
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What I think you are overlooking is significant peripheral information. If you look at the IQ distribution of people of Polish descent in the USA you find a distribution below the average white USA distribution. This is because a very large proportion of the ancestors of those of Polish descent were brought over as indentured laborers to build the railways. That is, they were selected from people of substantially below average Polish IQ. Their descendants carry that inheritance. If you compare the IQ distribution of Poles in Poland with the White distribution in the USA, they are much the same.
The children of the original Polish immigrants had IQs close to the mean IQs of the other European immigrants. The mean IQs of their grandchildren were identical to everyone else. The original Polish immigrants had never held a pencil, they had just stepped off the boat after being sleep deprived for several days and had been standing in long lines at Ellis Island for several hours. They were handed a pencil and told to take the IQ test. No one could have performed well under those circumstances. If you're inclined, The Measure of Man by Stephen J.Gould has a detailed discussion of the attempts to measure intelligence. He specifically mentions the IQ test given to the Poles.

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There can be almost no doubt that IQ distribution is racially and sub racially related from one group to another. From an evolutionary view point it would be astounding if that were not so. At the same time it is obvious that the expression of IQ relative to the genetic determinants of IQ can be significantly depressed by culture. It is very probably that this is happening with very many blacks in the USA, but this is a chicken and egg problem. Their lower than average IQ influences their culture and positions it at the bottom of the socio economic scale. This is not a pleasant place for any individual or group to be. A relatively small proportion have the IQ and family support to get out of that trap, but the rest still want the good things in life so crime is the only route to those things. You have to be clever to be a criminal and not end up in prison and that is what happens to the majority of men in the 15 to 35 age group.
You're overlooking a couple things. First, most Black Americans are genetically more European than African.

Second, the salve owners didn't want intelligent motivated salves. They wanted docile slaves. those with intelligence and initiative were eliminated from the gene pool. If there is a genetic component this is it. Given enough time the normal genetic distribution will reassert itself. In statistical parlance, it will regress to the mean.
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:15   #214
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Charles Payne has said that one of the most difficult hurdles he faced as a black child was the peer pressure from other blacks who tried to demand he abandon whitey's ways and become one of them. He was berated often for striving to become educated, getting good grades, and thus working to become successful.

I think that anti-education, counter-productive, behavior afflicts more than a few who are black and work hard at being successful.
Working class white children suffer the same difficulty in the UK. This might be worse now than it was 60 years ago as the socialist propagandists have been very successful in getting the idea of the victim culture across.

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Old 03-06-2013, 13:16   #215
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I can think of policies of a totally politically incorrect nature, probably to conservatives as well as liberals, but it is most unlikely that any government would even try to implement them.

English
How about free market capitalism? Why is someone’s IQ the Government’s concern? IQ is something a central planner is interested in.

In a free market system, the smart become gifted stock pickers like Warren Buffett. The not so smart marry Warren, as Buffett describes his second wife as someone who enjoys shoveling snow.

Anyway, changes are coming as the current system is unsustainable.

As it stands now, the USA is borrowing money from the Chinese to maintain our underclass in middleclass style all while many Chinese are surviving on less than $2/day.

Surely this is not lost on the Chinese and maybe it is their plan to destroy us via dysgenics.
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:17   #216
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Gardner has blown the field wide open. General thinking today is that IQ is the ability to adapt to your environment. That's an admission that IQ has a strong environmental context. Yet we still cling to the idea that IQ consists of a few specific constructs familiar to everyone.

I agree.

Trying to tag human beings with numbers signifying their comparative gifts and capabilities is, in a lot of instances, an exercise in folly.

Problem is, we have bureaucracy- Dept of Ed. comes immediately to mind- which demonstrate an absolute need on their part to label and number each and every one of us.

Fun stuff, that, if its consequences were not so heavy in consequences.
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:24   #217
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Also related to the fact that the original slaves were partly those who were not bright enough to avoid being caught by the slave traders and were partly those sold by their own tribes as not being bright enough to want to keep. That is, their ancestry brought lower than average IQ relative to their area of Africa with them. Then when they got to the USA the brighter ones would be seen as dangerous and culled by their owners.

English
That, sir, is an eye-opener!

Surely we in America have a plague of guilt pounded into our skulls by our liberal edumacation system as it seems we are never- NEVER- to pry ourselves free of the consequences of having slavery 200 years ago.
Begs the question: Why can American white children still be guilty of an act committed by forefathers way the hell-n-gone back, so many generations ago?
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Old 03-07-2013, 19:25   #218
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Just summing up this entire thread, the biggest thing that frustrates me is how political correctness has distorted thinking so much that the OP's point can even be debated.

The statistics germane to this issue do not lie. Blacks are a small percentage of the US population. Young black males are a small part of that group, yet they commit half the gun homicides in America, and mostly they kill one another.

Take that away and America has a tiny gun violence issue.

The blacks shooting each other mostly live in larger cities. So, someone living in a town of 20000 in Iowa likely has almost no chance of ever being a victim of a gun related crime.

Second, IQ tests may be of questionable value, yet we all grow up observing with our own eyes that some people are smarter than others. Why does PC try to force us to deny that or make excuses for certain people. When I was in grade school there were smart kids and dumb kids. That's just the way it was. No one worried about emvironment or anything.


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Old 03-07-2013, 19:29   #219
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Further, why does PC try to make us deny that we can generalize things about certain groups of people?

People can see it with their own eyes. Stereotypes developed not because people had evil intent about other groups. They observed certain traits about that group and learned to generalize about them.

Not everyone fits a stereotype, but a few exceptions do not make a generalization invalid. Unless you are a PC thinker.


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Old 03-07-2013, 19:35   #220
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Just summing up this entire thread, the biggest thing that frustrates me is how political correctness has distorted thinking so much that the OP's point can even be debated.

The statistics germane to this issue do not lie. Blacks are a small percentage of the US population. Young black males are a small part of that group, yet they commit half the gun homicides in America, and mostly they kill one another.

Take that away and America has a tiny gun violence issue.

The blacks shooting each other mostly live in larger cities. So, someone living in a town of 20000 in Iowa likely has almost no chance of ever being a victim of a gun related crime.

Second, IQ tests may be of questionable value, yet we all grow up observing with our own eyes that some people are smarter than others. Why does PC try to force us to deny that or make excuses for certain people. When I was in grade school there were smart kids and dumb kids. That's just the way it was. No one worried about emvironment or anything.


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GOOD POSTS- both of them.



I think I have some answers for the questions you pose, but nothing I could say would be news to you as I think you've spent time and energy thinking this over in depth.
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