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Old 03-14-2013, 05:29   #261
Gunboat1
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Blah blah blah.....

"I don't like the outcome of the tests, so the tests must be biased."

Facts are facts. The bell curve exists and we see the results of that fact around us every day.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:22   #262
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Therefore it's context specific and requires an understanding of the culture in which that context occurs.
I was talking about intelligence and not IQ. Intelligence relates to the real world and the real world cannot be understood or mentally manipulated without knowledge of that world. What we see as intelligence is the facility with which different individuals operate within their real world, which might include such abstract things as mathematics and so on.

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No.
Are you are denying the multifactorial model of intelligence?

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This contradicts what you just wrote to which I answered no. People have been looking for G (general intelligence) since around 1900 and have yet to define it discretely enough to measure it. An ambiguous premise begets ambiguous questions which beget ambiguous answers which yield ambiguous results.
Not so! If there is a general intelligence which forms a basis for specific intelligences it would naturally be very difficult to disentangle it in an unambiguous manner since all questions must involve specific intelligences.

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Obviously.
Indeed, but it is not obvious to everyone and you were the one asking for a definition.

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You're right. That's not intelligence. It's achievement (i.e., mastery of the material being tested for).
No! You have completely failed to understand this one. Whatever it is that so many tests measure as G, an individual put into a working environment with no prior experience of the work concerned will develop methods and insights from the application of his own intelligence which enable him to out perform those of lesser scores for G, regardless of the fact that some of those others have a greater initial mastery of the material - that is, the job.

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The limit of which you speak is enculturation, not intelligence. You can test adaptation to a certain culture. That's what IQ tests do.
It s what SOME IQ tests do.

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So you admit you can't test for higher order thinking skills (l.e., higher levels of intelligence) outside a cultural component.
It is a practical question if we are looking for a means to predict future performance in some particular field. At the highest levels of a specific subject, say theoretical physics, performance is a function of more than IQ. It depends on a mastery of and ready mental access to a wealth of subject knowledge. It also depends on the ability to both use and question that knowledge. It is only possible to test this within the context of that knowledge. Such advanced performance also depends on extended concentration on a particular problem which might extend for days, months or years and clearly this is not testable within an IQ type test.

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If used in schools, they would test the degree to which the person learned what the school wanted them to learn.
That would be an incompetent way in which to use IQ tests unless all students were of the same culture. The competent way to use them is to identify those students whose performance is not matching the expectations of performance provided by their IQ scores and then take remedial action.

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Of course students raised by school teachers in that culture would do better than children of Kalahari Bushmen because the school is the natural environment for students of teachers but an alien environment for the Bushmen. On the other hand, if you dropped the teachers' kids in the Kalahari they wouldn't be considered overly intelligent and would have trouble surviving on their own.
Of course! But you are confusing performance and IQ which is no more than a rough measure of the potential to perform.

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Give me a sample question with no cultural contest. If you write it in English, then it's within the limit of English speaking people so it's culturally specific.
I cannot believe that you have failed to see innumerable IQ questions that are entirely diagrammatic. It is true that children will have to be taught how to see the kind of logic within the diagram, but, after a short explanation, all start equal with no need for English language skills.

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So one more time you admit that we can't test higher level thinking skills outside a cultural context. That's a lot of writing to just say you agree with me. In the future try to be less loquacious.
I have already answered that question and I don't agree with you. As you have failed to understand that, I have clearly not been loquacious enough. Within the scope of most things where an IQ test is useful, culturally free IQ tests will work in some areas and culturally specific tests will work in others. There is a place for both. That does not mean that all IQ tests are culturally biased.

Incidentally, I see no need for your descent into minor abuse and I am surprised by it.

English

PS By counting lines in the above, our relative loquacity is approximately 39 to 26 or 3:2 with me 50% more loquacious and you with 33% better brevity. As the only thing that matters is being understood, these scores mean little of nothing. Over the thread, I think you have written far more than me, but much of it has been repetitious.

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Old 03-14-2013, 08:42   #263
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Originally Posted by English View Post
I was talking about intelligence and not IQ. Intelligence relates to the real world and the real world cannot be understood or mentally manipulated without knowledge of that world. What we see as intelligence is the facility with which different individuals operate within their real world, which might include such abstract things as mathematics and so on.

Are you are denying the multifactorial model of intelligence?


Not so! If there is a general intelligence which forms a basis for specific intelligences it would naturally be very difficult to disentangle it in an unambiguous manner since all questions must involve specific intelligences.


Indeed, but it is not obvious to everyone and you were the one asking for a definition.



No! You have completely failed to understand this one. Whatever it is that so many tests measure as G, an individual put into a working environment with no prior experience of the work concerned will develop methods and insights from the application of his own intelligence which enable him to out perform those of lesser scores for G, regardless of the fact that some of those others have a greater initial mastery of the material - that is, the job.


It s what SOME IQ tests do.


It is a practical question if we are looking for a means to predict future performance in some particular field. At the highest levels of a specific subject, say theoretical physics, performance is a function of more than IQ. It depends on a mastery of and ready mental access to a wealth of subject knowledge. It also depends on the ability to both use and question that knowledge. It is only possible to test this within the context of that knowledge. Such advanced performance also depends on extended concentration on a particular problem which might extend for days, months or years and clearly this is not testable within an IQ type test.


That would be an incompetent way in which to use IQ tests unless all students were of the same culture. The competent way to use them is to identify those students whose performance is not matching the expectations of performance provided by their IQ scores and then take remedial action.


Of course! But you are confusing performance and IQ which is no more than a rough measure of the potential to perform.



I cannot believe that you have failed to see innumerable IQ questions that are entirely diagrammatic. It is true that children will have to be taught how to see the kind of logic within the diagram, but, after a short explanation, all start equal with no need for English language skills.



I have already answered that question and I don't agree with you. As you have failed to understand that, I have clearly not been loquacious enough. Within the scope of most things where an IQ test is useful, culturally free IQ tests will work in some areas and culturally specific tests will work in others. There is a place for both. That does not mean that all IQ tests are culturally biased.

Incidentally, I see no need for your descent into minor abuse and I am surprised by it.

English

PS By counting lines in the above, our relative loquacity is approximately 39 to 26 or 3:2 with me 50% more loquacious and you with 33% better brevity. As the only thing that matters is being understood, these scores mean little of nothing. Over the thread, I think you have written far more than me, but much of it has been repetitious.
You're entirely too much work.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:57   #264
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...And English wins on a T.K.O.


Political Issues


.
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Old 03-14-2013, 13:43   #265
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm tonight.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Wait, no, wrong one.


Give a man a fish...
And he will eat for a day

Teach a man to fish...
And he will sit in a boat drinking beer all day

We need to stop giving away fish.
Realistically that is the outcome.

I prefer,

Build a man a fire and
and he will stay warm for a night.

Set a man on a fire
and he will discover motivation.
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Old 03-14-2013, 13:49   #266
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Realistically that is the outcome.

I prefer,

Build a man a fire and
and he will stay warm for a night.

Set a man on a fire
and he will discover motivation.
...And as Richard Pryor was quoted as saying (some time after he had set himself on fire while free-basing cocaine): "I did the 100-yard dash in 5 seconds flat. Fire is a great motivator." Political Issues


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Old 03-14-2013, 14:32   #267
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...And as Richard Pryor was quoted as saying (some time after he had set himself on fire while free-basing cocaine): "I did the 100-yard dash in 5 seconds flat. Fire is a great motivator." Political Issues


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Old 03-14-2013, 18:26   #268
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Given free access to high-level education and political power, as the ruling class in many African countries have had for several decades and more, the result has been, uh, well, I guess you could say "somewhat disappointing" if you wanted to be kind. Extreme tribal-based violence, abject poverty for the majority (much more the case now than before "self-rule"), rampant disease, continuing widespread ignorance, savaging of the natural environment, extreme corruption...in short, disasters everywhere.

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Old 03-15-2013, 05:11   #269
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Given free access to high-level education and political power, as the ruling class in many African countries have had for several decades and more, the result has been, uh, well, I guess you could say "somewhat disappointing" if you wanted to be kind. Extreme tribal-based violence, abject poverty for the majority (much more the case now than before "self-rule"), rampant disease, continuing widespread ignorance, savaging of the natural environment, extreme corruption...in short, disasters everywhere.
Much like Washington DC, Detroit, Atlanta, Memphis, New Orleans, etc......

I sense a pattern here.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:16   #270
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Much like Washington DC, Detroit, Atlanta, Memphis, New Orleans, etc......

I sense a pattern here.
My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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Old 03-15-2013, 05:25   #271
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My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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Political Issues


You tell'em Ivan.



Political Issues

Yeah, you tell'em.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:33   #272
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This discussion of measuring IQ has strayed way off from the OP's original contention. Young black males commit gun violence at an astoundingly high rate.

Those same black males also tend to be uneducated. They may or may not tend to have lower than average intelligence.

But you cannot say that causes the gun crimes. All races and cultures in America have substantial numbers of dumb and uneducated young males, but they are not out there shooting people.


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Old 03-15-2013, 07:12   #273
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Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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Your guess would be wrong, sport. I was bussed for over 3 hours a day into a formerly all-black inner city school as part of court-ordered desegregation measures in the 1970's. I served in the military for 21 years. I served in the federal government for over 30 years, combined service. I have had plenty of exposure to "black culture".

You can try and claim that the ills of "black culture" are all the fault of oppression by "da man" all you want. Calling a bird a fish can't make it swim.

Challenge: Show us an example of a successful minority-run city in America - one with low crime, low political corruption, successful and well-run social services, and proper facilities maintenance. I'll be waiting right here........

Let me save you some trouble. When losing an argument, yell "Dat's Racisss!"
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:43   #274
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Your guess would be wrong, sport. I was bussed for over 3 hours a day into a formerly all-black inner city school as part of court-ordered desegregation measures in the 1970's. I served in the military for 21 years. I served in the federal government for over 30 years, combined service. I have had plenty of exposure to "black culture".

You can try and claim that the ills of "black culture" are all the fault of oppression by "da man" all you want. Calling a bird a fish can't make it swim.

Challenge: Show us an example of a successful minority-run city in America - one with low crime, low political corruption, successful and well-run social services, and proper facilities maintenance. I'll be waiting right here........

Let me save you some trouble. When losing an argument, yell "Dat's Racisss!"
Our shotgun approach to racial problems has always been a disaster. The Civil War was an unnecessary disaster. The British bought all their salves and released them. We had to have a civil war from which the country still hasn't recovered. The forced integration you endured was a disaster. Students in all Black schools weren't academically or socially ready ready to attend white schools but were forced to anyway. Busing white students to black schools was criminal. It denied proper educations to some students and helped no one. It also increased racial tensions.

However, as for well run cities, Iv'e visited Atlanta several times. It seems to be well run. I realize that's not the same as living there.

The problem with places like Detroit is that once the underclass starts taking over, those with money and talent leave. The fact that much of the underclass in failing cities is black is an ancillary issue since black people tend to have less money and mobility to begin with. Black people with talent and money leave these places as well. People like Tiger Woods don't live in places like inner city Detroit. They live with the rest of us. Chicago's been a mess since Al Capone. It's the most angry city I've ever visited and it's not just the Black people who are angry. Chicago should put Valium in its water supply.
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Old 03-15-2013, 07:47   #275
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Iv'e visited Atlanta several times. It seems to be well run. I realize that's not the same as living there.

The problem with places like Detroit is that once the underclass starts taking over, those with money and talent leave. The fact that much of the underclass in failing cities is black is an ancillary issue since black people tend to have less money and mobility to begin with. Black people with talent and money leave these places as well. People like Tiger Woods don't live in places like inner city Detroit. They live with the rest of us. Chicago's been a mess since Al Capone. It's the most angry city I've ever visited.
Not metro Atlanta, the city of Atlanta. It's a craphole. It makes the case by contrast with its suburbs.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:03   #276
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Not metro Atlanta, the city of Atlanta. It's a craphole. It makes the case by contrast with its suburbs.
San Antonio is run primarily by Mexican-Americans. It's a great place to vacation and raise children. I love it here. Like all cities, there are places I tend to avoid, but I live in an area where crime consists of bratty kids acting like bratty kids. Last week someone hid my trash can. It was more humorous than irritating. I just found it and brought it back in time for the truck to pick it up.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:36   #277
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San Antonio is run primarily by Mexican-Americans. It's a great place to vacation and raise children. I love it here. Like all cities, there are places I tend to avoid, but I live in an area where crime consists of bratty kids acting like bratty kids. Last week someone hid my trash can. I just found it and brought it back. It was more humorous than irritating. I just found it and brought it back in time for the truck to pick it up.

I recall a sociological study conducted way-back-when analyzing the development of the immigrant Mexican-American population in Texas versus that in southern California.

In Texas, where there was no (at the time) major progressive push toward providing entitlement services to immigrants (or any other people), the Mexicans simply assimilated into the Texas population at large, and continued the fundamental work ethic which had caused them to immigrate in the first place.

In the major population centers of southern California (notably Los Angeles), which already had an entrenched, heavily African-American entitlement culture, many Mexicans adopted that culture (a case of doing as the Romans do, so to speak).

That study came out quite a while ago, and the dynamics of both regions have apparently changed quite a bit -- in that California has become even more progressive, and some of the major population centers of Texas have started adopting that progressivism. Still, it provides some interesting food for thought.


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Old 03-15-2013, 08:49   #278
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This discussion of measuring IQ has strayed way off from the OP's original contention. Young black males commit gun violence at an astoundingly high rate.

Those same black males also tend to be uneducated. They may or may not tend to have lower than average intelligence.

But you cannot say that causes the gun crimes. All races and cultures in America have substantial numbers of dumb and uneducated young males, but they are not out there shooting people.


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The problem is not that there are some dumb and uneducated black males but that it is a substantial majority. Dumb as they are, they are not so dumb that they cannot recognize that very few of their peer group are going to make progress within the socio economic system. There are then two possible group reactions to this simple observation. The logical one is that this is the way things really are and they should settle down to make the best of it. The natural one, since it is very hard to accept such a thing, is that it is a conspiracy against them. They are supported in this by socialist/liberal philosophy and by black politicians who care little about any philosophy or morality other than getting as much for themselves as possible.

Within that framework of anger and hatred they make it very difficult for any of their more intelligent brothers and sisters to gain a good education and move into the economic mainstream. That is, such children are derided and bullied for being part white, or black on the outside and white on the inside like some candy bar, the name of which I forget.

Because of justified guilt about the history of slavery in the USA, the black community is allowed to get away with not working hard enough at school, of bad behavior and blatant bullying at school, and then petty criminality in early teens. All this leads to proper criminality and jail. It is easy to say that this means that most of the next generation of boys are brought up without male role models, but this is wrong. They have lots of male role models in the form of criminals and bullies. What they lack are respectable role models because most of them live in societies where the great majority are criminals, ex criminals and would be criminals.

The combination of anger and hatred against other racial groups combined with a majority criminal culture leads inevitably to gun crime. There is no empathy for other groups because they are seen as less than human. They live in criminal gangs which compete with other criminal gangs, and since they are violent by nature, that competition leads to gang warfare. The result is lethal violence directed both at other races and their own.

I hope I am not accused of racism for this because all I am doing is trying to describe the situation as it is. Until the reality is accepted we will make no progress with a solution. In the non pejorative sense I am, of course, racist since I believe not only that there are racial groups with racial differences, but that this is an inevitable consequence of evolution. Within limits, the selective forces that produced different skin colors are linked to those which produce different mental abilities, but skin color as such is an irrelevance.

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Old 03-15-2013, 08:50   #279
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Originally Posted by JFrame View Post
I recall a sociological study conducted way-back-when analyzing the development of the immigrant Mexican-American population in Texas versus that in southern California.

In Texas, where there was no (at the time) major progressive push toward providing entitlement services to immigrants (or any other people), the Mexicans simply assimilated into the Texas population at large, and continued the fundamental work ethic which had caused them to immigrate in the first place.

In the major population centers of southern California (notably Los Angeles), which already had an entrenched, heavily African-American entitlement culture, many Mexicans adopted that culture (a case of doing as the Romans do, so to speak).

That study came out quite a while ago, and the dynamics of both regions have apparently changed quite a bit -- in that California has become even more progressive, and some of the major population centers of Texas have started adopting that progressivism. Still, it provides some interesting food for thought.


.
Anecdotal confirmation of several basic thoughts most reasonable folks would be having. 'Folks is folks' and they are adaptable. How they adapt and what they emerge as is variable.
Good one, JFrame.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:17   #280
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Originally Posted by IvanVic View Post
My guess is that you've never been exposed to any black culture outside of what you read on the internet.

It's sad that when adults try to speak, eventually you have the true racists show up and blame the entire thing on skin color.

Any population, regardless of skin color, that has an out of wedlock birth rate of 73% is going to have issues with education, parental guidance, poverty, and consequently, crime. These things are problems that they created themselves and will need to fix on their own, but your "logic" is way off.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are black? No no, wait I know, you're going to characterize my pointing out of your obvious racism as "playing the race card," right?


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You are making assumptions.I've dealt with black culture for right at 20yrs/job related I've seen both good and bad from all ethnic groups.The overwhelming #s involve the black community,hispanics are a distant 2nd.


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Your guess would be wrong, sport. I was bussed for over 3 hours a day into a formerly all-black inner city school as part of court-ordered desegregation measures in the 1970's. I served in the military for 21 years. I served in the federal government for over 30 years, combined service. I have had plenty of exposure to "black culture".

You can try and claim that the ills of "black culture" are all the fault of oppression by "da man" all you want. Calling a bird a fish can't make it swim.

Challenge: Show us an example of a successful minority-run city in America - one with low crime, low political corruption, successful and well-run social services, and proper facilities maintenance. I'll be waiting right here........

Let me save you some trouble. When losing an argument, yell "Dat's Racisss!"


Thank you.'08.
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