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Old 02-26-2013, 21:26   #101
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Originally Posted by volsbear View Post
Do you think the drug cartels would suddenly give up and stop peddling their crap on our streets? Or do you believe they'd simply go get a license to manufacture and distribute?

I don't completely disagree with you, but I don't think the problem dries up as fast as the booze problem did.
The main problem with the drug cartels is that they're killing each other in the streets along with any innocent person who gets in the way. Legalization would definitively stop that. The employees of Jack Danial's and Jim beam don't shoot it out in the streets. It's not profitable.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:18   #102
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Wait a sec here. You've had "a few friends murdered?" Wow. May I ask where they lived, how old they were and how many is "a few?"

I had a shirt-tail relative by marriage who was murdered, but that's it.


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Karen, in her early twenties, Mississippi, who I dated, killed by a white guy (ex-boyfriend, not me), shot.
Todd 28, Texas (killed by a white guy, shot)
Tom, 40, Louisiana (killed by three black guys, hit in head with pipe)
Doug 28, Alabama (killed by a black guy who carjacked him)

And, one of my best friends, Bill, Pennsylvania, 51 or 52 at the time, lived (barely), after being shot in the head, by a white guy on meth.

And, lots more I worked with but weren't really close friends with.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:33   #103
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There are plenty of young black men that don't think that way, unfortunately they grow up among the thugs that do think that way, and some of them lose their life in a silly argument. I think that's the point Shark is trying to make.


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You really think the people who get murdered in bar fights over girls would have died if they had walked away when it started? Maybe in a very small percentage.

I don't know what it is in the culture that makes them feel that they have to take every issue that far, but it's there in a lot of young black males, (and more and more black females).

I know where the white bars are in town that you can get in trouble in. I don't go there, and wouldn't feel like I had to stay if I went and someone did try and start something. Some people can't think of life as a chess game, and can't see past one move.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:37   #104
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Seems like you are trying to blame the victim here...

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2139178...#axzz2M6qi2l3G

RIP JOE HARDIN
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:39   #105
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I know both of the guys interviewed... but the one on the right grew up on my street in my old neighborhood. My mom used to babysit him.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:44   #106
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I don't know what it is in the culture that makes them feel that they have to take every issue that far, but it's there in a lot of young black males, (and more and more black females).

I am reminded of Sayre's Law, which states, "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." I've heard this law referenced most often in academic politics, with the more prosaic definition of, "Academic politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small."

No doubt there are a vast morass of sociological effects at play here -- referencing back to the leftist doctrines that specifically targeted the African-American population -- but maybe there is some of this dynamic at play also.


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Old 02-27-2013, 08:00   #107
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Originally Posted by GWSHARK View Post
Seems like you are trying to blame the victim here...

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2139178...#axzz2M6qi2l3G

RIP JOE HARDIN
There is a difference between being legally culpable and being stupid. But, if you end up dead, both ways, does it matter?
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:19   #108
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Your friends... were they innocent victims... and Joe a "stupid" victim because of the circumstances of their murders? Not sure what you are getting at....

It's not like he put hands on the guy.

If someone insults a lady who is with you in your presence what do you do? Tell her she is on her own and then turn and run?
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:50   #109
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You really think the people who get murdered in bar fights over girls would have died if they had walked away when it started? Maybe in a very small percentage.

I don't know what it is in the culture that makes them feel that they have to take every issue that far, but it's there in a lot of young black males, (and more and more black females).
Excellent point. Baffles me, too.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:24   #110
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What don't you understand about fighting harder and changing our strategy?
I'm not saying we keep doing the same old thing.

We need new tactics and a new strategy and a real war on drugs, not just lip service while the problem gets worse.

Or would you rather we just give up and let drugs rule our society?
Do you prefer the gun violence and the gang violence?

..
The proper strategy for such a thing is to change people's beliefs regarding drugs. Propaganda, or some more "reasonable restrictions" on the First Amendment.

I mean seriously, there's countless movies that portray drug use as cool, or funny, and countless songs from the 60s onward that glorify drug use. We have CEOs (Steve Jobs) on record crediting LSD as a huge benefit to their creativity.

We have obvious drug users in the entertainment business, shown every day as living the life, having all the fun, and getting all the girls - aka: role models to aspire to, and then we try and sit down with our sons and daughters and tell them to become boring, unwanted, and a relative failure instead?

The cultural actions we glorify are polar opposites from the laws and spending initiatives we have to combat illegal activity. Whichever way you go, legalize or keep illegal, our actions and words have to be the same. It's parenting 101 for crying out loud, and we're all a part of doing one thing while saying another. I don't blame kids one bit for becoming screw ups any more - think of the message they grow up with, from their parents and their society as a whole. It's a wonder anyone manages to do anything good at all to be honest.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:58   #111
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Your friends... were they innocent victims... and Joe a "stupid" victim because of the circumstances of their murders? Not sure what you are getting at....
Two of them, put themselves in a bad situation. The others were doing their job.

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It's not like he put hands on the guy.
Oh, I see. Trying to understand why irrational people don't act rationally. "He didn't touch him. It wasn't rational for him to shoot him."

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If someone insults a lady who is with you in your presence what do you do? Tell her she is on her own and then turn and run?
I guess that is the mentality. In a bar, at 1:00 am in the morning? You have a female with you, and that makes it necessary to continue to argue and fight until someone is dead?

See, I guess I would say, "You know, honey, I think I know how this story ends and it's really time to the hell out of Dodge. Let's go." Different culture, I know.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:56   #112
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He was leaving... was followed and shot from behind.

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Old 02-27-2013, 12:07   #113
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I guess I have the mentality.

I don't care where I am... If an aggressive male began to berate my wife, daughter, sister, grandmother, aunt etc. I'd most likely interject and attempt to diffuse AT LEAST.

I have trouble believing you would not do the same.

Also, when you were in your 20's 30's were you always home by 1AM?
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:17   #114
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I guess I have the mentality.

I don't care where I am... If an aggressive male began to berate my wife, daughter, sister, grandmother, aunt etc. I'd most likely interject and attempt to diffuse AT LEAST.

I have trouble believing you would not do the same.

Also, when you were in your 20's 30's were you always home by 1AM?
No, I wasn't. However, once I was married, I was not likely to be in a place where that kind of thing would be likely to happen, and neither were my wife, daughter, sister, grandmother or aunt.


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Old 02-27-2013, 13:13   #115
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I guess I have the mentality.

I don't care where I am... If an aggressive male began to berate my wife, daughter, sister, grandmother, aunt etc. I'd most likely interject and attempt to diffuse AT LEAST.

I have trouble believing you would not do the same.

Also, when you were in your 20's 30's were you always home by 1AM?
Every bar I have been in, the people looking for trouble found it, and the people looking to stay out of trouble were successful, too.

Yeah, I've been in bar fights, because I was stupid, but I know better now. And, it's much worse now than when I was younger. People didn't get killed over nothing as much as they do now.

I have a hard time believing that gunman A said something to victim B's girlfriend, and then victim B started walking out and was shot from behind.

That sounds like every case of road rage from both sides. I was just minding my own business, and then he cut me off, and then he shot at me. When you hear that, you know it didn't happen like that.

I'm sorry about your buddy, but it's not against the law to pull $400 out of an ATM in the crappy part of town at 1:00 am, either. But, smart people don't do it.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:42   #116
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Just because the war on drugs has been a failure, doesn't mean we just give up and legalize them.

We fight harder.
So we shouldn't have ended Prohibition and fought the gangs harder?
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Old 02-27-2013, 23:29   #117
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Just because the war on drugs has been a failure, doesn't mean we just give up and legalize them.

We fight harder.
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Old 02-27-2013, 23:34   #118
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So we shouldn't have ended Prohibition and fought the gangs harder?
Yes.

If prohibition was successful, our society would be better for it.

Most people have a subconscious death drive and will destroy themselves with anything they can get their hands on.

It would of been one less self-destructive tool available.
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Old 02-28-2013, 00:42   #119
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Yes.

If prohibition was successful, our society would be better for it.

Most people have a subconscious death drive and will destroy themselves with anything they can get their hands on.

It would of been one less self-destructive tool available.
Far more people are dying at the hands of the Golden Arches and Little Debbie than by alcohol.

Part of that freedom gun owners chest-thump about involves the freedom to run your body into the ground.

How much government do you want?


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Old 02-28-2013, 01:04   #120
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Yes.

If prohibition was successful, our society would be better for it.

Most people have a subconscious death drive and will destroy themselves with anything they can get their hands on.

It would of been one less self-destructive tool available.

Yep, the government always needs to save us from ourselves.

Wasn't that the first Naderism?
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:30   #121
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Fascinating thread.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:25   #122
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If you download the raw data from the FBI Uniform Crime Report (available in MS Excel format on there website) and the CDC's data, you can slice and dice the data any way you want. If you remove blacks and Hispanics from the data, the US homicide rate drops from about 4.4 per 100k to 1.9. 1.9 is comparable to European countries and Canada where they do not have large, poor, minority populations. Looking at overall violent crime, I was able to calculate that 86% of all violent crime in the country is committed by members of the black and Hispanic minorities...23% of the US population. Meanwhile, the rates among members of other races living in poverty are no where near as high...so there is definitely something more than just poverty at the heart of this. I believe there is a cultural disposition towards violence. Before the flames start, my last statement was the only opinion stated here: the rest is cold hard stats you can easily verify for yourselves using the UCR and CDC data.


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This.

But no one wants to deal with the elephant in the livingroom. The problem could be solved almost overnight but no one wants to stop feeding, medicating, and cleaning up after the elephant.

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Old 02-28-2013, 03:26   #123
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This.

But no one wants to deal with the elephant in the livingroom. The problem could be solved almost overnight but no one wants to stop feeding, medicating, and cleaning up after the elephant.

Gray_Rider
How could it be solved "almost overnight?"


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Old 02-28-2013, 04:49   #124
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In before the lock!

The gun problem is NOT a black problem, it's a social problem that affects everyone.
It may affect everyone, but it isn't caused by everyone. I recall a thread a while back about our crime statistics being better than northern europe if you eliminated the black population from the statistics. Some blogger mentioned here a while back said, "Republicans want guns to defend themselves against black people and Democrats are against guns because they want to disarm black people, of whom they are afraid." That about sums it up.

But we aren't allowed to talk about that, so we keep talking about it like everybody is equally to blame. It's like when the TSA ignores 3 arab men and searches a grandmother from Kansas, because it wouldn't be fair to target members of the suspect group.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:55   #125
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The problem is predominantly one of young, inner city minorities shooting one another. This is the result of 100 years of liberal Progressive welfare policies that have destroyed the family unit.

It is hard to commit street corner violence at 1am when you've been working all day and have to be at work at 7am the next morning.
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