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Old 05-06-2014, 23:42   #1
Big Bird
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The significance of shotgun fit.


If you are a dedicated bead shooter I encourage you to watch the above video. Hell, if you just like to shoot shotguns watch the darn thing.

Pay close attention at the end when they take the shooter out to the range how very small changes in stock geometry can significantly shift the point of impact of the shot pattern.

Its important to understand that shotgun shooting with a bead is about looking at the target not aiming at the target and that a poorly fitted shotgun can cause you to easily miss what you are looking at. Also, keep in mind with a defensve shotgun you don't always get the luxury of standing facing your target and mounting your gun the same way every time. You might be sitting, laying down, supported on something etc and all these positions will dramatically shift the point of impact of the shotgun relative to how you are looking down the barrel.

At least be aware of what a proper shotgun mount should look like and why a fitted shotgun is important--and not just for shooting clay targets or hunting either!

This is one of the reasons why I recommend a ghost ring sight on a self defense shotgun. Used properly its not slower than a bead and minimizes the problems associated with inconsistent gun mount and/or a poorly fitted shotgun as your eye is forced to center the rear sight insuring good sight alignment regardless of your mount.

Lets face it. How many people practice their gun mount with the several thousand repititions it requires to develop the muscle memory to do it the same way every time? Let alone how many of you will adjust your stock for ideal length of pull, cast off and drop at comb? (or really even know how to do it).
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Old 05-09-2014, 03:39   #2
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With a shotgun your eye is the rear sight.

For you to hit with it the stock needs to align your eye properly just like a rear sight needs to be adjusted on a rifle or handgun.

Folks like to proclaim the superiority of the ghost ring sight over a bead, but a properly fit shotgun with a bead sight is just as accurate and faster. Problem is most people don't take the time to properly fit a fighting shotgun.
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Old 05-09-2014, 16:17   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vafish View Post
With a shotgun your eye is the rear sight.

For you to hit with it the stock needs to align your eye properly just like a rear sight needs to be adjusted on a rifle or handgun.

Folks like to proclaim the superiority of the ghost ring sight over a bead, but a properly fit shotgun with a bead sight is just as accurate and faster. Problem is most people don't take the time to properly fit a fighting shotgun.
If your comb too high or low and your cast off is too much or too little 1/8" difference in the stock dimension will shift your point if impact/aim by 1 foot!
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Old 05-09-2014, 16:21   #4
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The time and money are far better spent on the shtf rifle and the EDC pistol, for a fact.
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Old 05-09-2014, 16:26   #5
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The time and money are far better spent on the shtf rifle and the EDC pistol, for a fact.
Go spend a week at Gunsite taking the tactical shotgun course and get back to us.

I promise you won't feel that way after you've been challenged to do things with a shotgun you never thought you could do.

Its not the be all end all weapon-what is? But there's not a better CQB manstopper on the planet than a 12 gauge with 00 buck and that's a fact! Its been the gold standard fight stopping tool for many decades. A pistol is a toy in comparison.
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Old 05-11-2014, 23:31   #6
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Its not the be all end all weapon-what is? But there's not a better CQB manstopper on the planet than a 12 gauge with 00 buck and that's a fact! Its been the gold standard fight stopping tool for many decades. A pistol is a toy in comparison.

I'm guessing you forgot about body armor and how most shotgun ammo is ineffective against it?

That's a fact too!

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Old 05-11-2014, 23:42   #7
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Quote:
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Go spend a week at Gunsite taking the tactical shotgun course and get back to us.

I promise you won't feel that way after you've been challenged to do things with a shotgun you never thought you could do.
Not getting into shotgun vs. carbine, but those two statements need to be heard by everyone who is steadfast in a "Carbine #1" mindset. Not to prove that the carbine is better or worse, but to learn how to run a shotgun in the most effective way, and as you said, do things that they never thought the shotgun could do.
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Old 05-12-2014, 14:37   #8
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The time and money are far better spent on the shtf rifle and the EDC pistol, for a fact.
Buddy you've infect these forums with tactical retardation. Take a break and do some reading.
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Old 05-12-2014, 16:25   #9
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For bird shooting shotgun fit is very important what I have found is almost every shotgun made currently as too long a stock. People often also we frequently wAlk into the gun store in August and pick a shotgun for hunting that feels great but neglect to realize they will have multiple heavy layers of clothing on when hunting changing the fit entirely.
For "tactical" shotguns which are really used like a large bore rifle doesn't matter that much.
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Old 05-12-2014, 16:37   #10
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For bird shooting shotgun fit is very important what I have found is almost every shotgun made currently as too long a stock. People often also we frequently wAlk into the gun store in August and pick a shotgun for hunting that feels great but neglect to realize they will have multiple heavy layers of clothing on when hunting changing the fit entirely.
For "tactical" shotguns which are really used like a large bore rifle doesn't matter that much.
It still matters when used in a professional setting. Body armor makes a huge difference in what your LOP needs to be.

Every SG I own has a "youth stock" or is adjustable because something close to 13" LOP works for just about everything I need it to.
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Old 05-13-2014, 15:54   #11
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For bird shooting shotgun fit is very important what I have found is almost every shotgun made currently as too long a stock. People often also we frequently wAlk into the gun store in August and pick a shotgun for hunting that feels great but neglect to realize they will have multiple heavy layers of clothing on when hunting changing the fit entirely.
For "tactical" shotguns which are really used like a large bore rifle doesn't matter that much.
Huh? My 45/70, .416 Rigby and .470 NE all have rear sights!

How can it make a difference in one application and not in another. You either hit what you are shooting at or you don't What you are shooting at doesn't affect what you are shooting.
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Old 05-13-2014, 18:42   #12
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I'm guessing you forgot about body armor and how most shotgun almost all pistol ammo is ineffective against it?
A shotgun is effective on everything from quail to lion; it would be difficult to find a single more versatile firearm. If I had to pick one gun to put food on the table, defend myself or family from two (2) and four (4) legged predators, it would be an M2 with an extended magazine tube.
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Old 05-17-2014, 11:36   #13
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I agree with body armor and other factors tactical shotgun fit is a factor and like we said ( saw a recent post elsewhere to support my opinions) most every shotgun around is built with too long a stock.
What I mean by large bore rifle is that in tactical applications within normal engagement ranges shot spread is so limited you are really talking about a first sized spread which means it is much more like shooting a rifle with one projectile than a bird gun with small shot beyond 15 yards with an open choke which spreads out much more than buck at closer ranges.
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Old 05-17-2014, 12:52   #14
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I could definitely see how a perfect fit would be a great asset when shooting at longer ranges, especially with slugs. However, assuming that my uses for a tactical shotgun are limited to HD (and many people are certainly in that boat), I don't think that being slightly off will affect my shot significantly. Let's go through the math:

At a range of 7 yards (or 252"), the center of the shot grouping will be off by 0.7" for every degree. If you are off by 5 degrees, then the center of the shot grouping will be 3.5" away from your point of aim. Using my own body as a reference point, that should still get a solid hit (assuming a point of aim of center mass and a fist-sized spread pattern). If I take the math further, I find that I would need to be off by at least 7.9 degrees on the horizontal axis (and dead on or low vertically) to get what I would call a miss (>half of my fist off body). Having a sight picture off by 7.9 degrees from the point of impact on a long arm seems pretty significant to me.

ETA: Build of assailant would factor into things, and I think it's only fair to say that I am 6' tall and ~180 lbs, as I used my body as a benchmark. A bigger assailant would give a larger margin of error, and a smaller assailant would give a smaller margin of error, naturally.
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:17   #15
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Originally Posted by steve1988 View Post
I could definitely see how a perfect fit would be a great asset when shooting at longer ranges, especially with slugs. However, assuming that my uses for a tactical shotgun are limited to HD (and many people are certainly in that boat), I don't think that being slightly off will affect my shot significantly. Let's go through the math:

At a range of 7 yards (or 252"), the center of the shot grouping will be off by 0.7" for every degree. If you are off by 5 degrees, then the center of the shot grouping will be 3.5" away from your point of aim. Using my own body as a reference point, that should still get a solid hit (assuming a point of aim of center mass and a fist-sized spread pattern). If I take the math further, I find that I would need to be off by at least 7.9 degrees on the horizontal axis (and dead on or low vertically) to get what I would call a miss (>half of my fist off body). Having a sight picture off by 7.9 degrees from the point of impact on a long arm seems pretty significant to me.

ETA: Build of assailant would factor into things, and I think it's only fair to say that I am 6' tall and ~180 lbs, as I used my body as a benchmark. A bigger assailant would give a larger margin of error, and a smaller assailant would give a smaller margin of error, naturally.
Would you shoot an AR without a rear sight?
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:24   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve1988 View Post
I could definitely see how a perfect fit would be a great asset when shooting at longer ranges, especially with slugs. However, assuming that my uses for a tactical shotgun are limited to HD (and many people are certainly in that boat), I don't think that being slightly off will affect my shot significantly. Let's go through the math:

At a range of 7 yards (or 252"), the center of the shot grouping will be off by 0.7" for every degree. If you are off by 5 degrees, then the center of the shot grouping will be 3.5" away from your point of aim. Using my own body as a reference point, that should still get a solid hit (assuming a point of aim of center mass and a fist-sized spread pattern). If I take the math further, I find that I would need to be off by at least 7.9 degrees on the horizontal axis (and dead on or low vertically) to get what I would call a miss (>half of my fist off body). Having a sight picture off by 7.9 degrees from the point of impact on a long arm seems pretty significant to me.

ETA: Build of assailant would factor into things, and I think it's only fair to say that I am 6' tall and ~180 lbs, as I used my body as a benchmark. A bigger assailant would give a larger margin of error, and a smaller assailant would give a smaller margin of error, naturally.
Would you shoot an AR without a rear sight?

The problem isn't one of simple geometry as you suggest. With a bead mounted shotgun your left eye (assuming you are right eye dominant--right handed) actually has to look across the barrel to see a target on your right. If the target is moving--running or walking than you have to track the target across the top of the barrel and you brain has to process that.

Hitting with a bead mounted shotgun isn't really about pointing as much as it is about SEEING and processing WHAT you are seeing in relation to the gun.

I miss clay targets at 5 yards all the time with a gun that fits (Try station 8 on skeet...) OK...I don't miss them much anymore. But close in moving targets with shotguns are in many ways harder to hit because you don't have a pattern working for you.
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Old 05-18-2014, 12:47   #17
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Would you shoot an AR without a rear sight?

The problem isn't one of simple geometry as you suggest. With a bead mounted shotgun your left eye (assuming you are right eye dominant--right handed) actually has to look across the barrel to see a target on your right. If the target is moving--running or walking than you have to track the target across the top of the barrel and you brain has to process that.

Hitting with a bead mounted shotgun isn't really about pointing as much as it is about SEEING and processing WHAT you are seeing in relation to the gun.

I miss clay targets at 5 yards all the time with a gun that fits (Try station 8 on skeet...) OK...I don't miss them much anymore. But close in moving targets with shotguns are in many ways harder to hit because you don't have a pattern working for you.
Actually, in Basic, I was trained to ignore the rear sight when room clearing. The idea was that by indexing off of the front sight, we could acquire targets faster. Obviously, this results in shooting high, but at that close range it wasn't considered an issue.

Shooting clays isn't the best comparison, in my opinion, because they are smaller and move faster. Because of this, being off by a few inches can cause a complete miss of a clay. When shooting at a person, that same amount may cause you to miss the exact center of mass, but would still result in a solid shot to the torso.

My contention is not that a properly fitted shotgun will not help you shoot more accurately. I am only saying that at close range, when engaging a man-sized target, it won't be as significant.
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