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Old 04-21-2013, 12:09   #101
FCastle88
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Hindsight is 20/20, is it not?
So you two keep asking why no one is coming up with solutions on how they could do it without forcing their way into homes, I post several, and now it's "hindsight is 20/20"?
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:13   #102
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Exigent circumstances....

The 4th has been posted a dozen times in this thread implying a warrant is needed for all searches which is false. The 4th is actually two separate clauses. The first offers protection from unreasonable searches, exigency is a longstanding warrantless action that is considered reasonable.

The second clause speaks of search warrants in relation to criminal matters. It was written to combat the general warrants of the time issued by the Crown which allowed searches of entire communities for no good reason other than to look for crimes and tax evasion.

The founding fathers understood in an organized society the citizens could not be completely isolated from its government. If not the 4th would simply say "all searches or seizures must be based on probable cause". They chose only to prohibit unreasonable searches and allowed what is reasonable to be defined by the courts.

Last edited by ray9898; 04-21-2013 at 12:17..
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:14   #103
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Originally Posted by FCastle88 View Post
The whole city was essentially locked down, pretty much everyone was staying inside, except for LEO's and reporters/cameras everywhere. The guy has to make a move sooner or later, so yes, drive around looking for the guy. Search with helicopters, investigate tips of people out on the streets during the lock down, bring in search dogs, wait for someone to call about someone hiding in their yard. Fact is, he wasn't found by the house searches, he was found by citizens looking for anything suspicious and reporting it.
So are you saying, immediately after the robbery/carjacking, BPD/FBI should have stood down and gone home, the end result would still have been the same?


Quote:
As for waiting for more bombs to go off, he seemed more interested in escaping than committing more attacks. But what do you think he's going to do if he's cornered, like if he was hiding in a house and SWAT showed up to search it?
Yeah, he and his brother gathered all the remaining bombs they had. Went and carjacked somebody. Told the driver they were the marathon bombers. Then let the driver go.

Sure, that sounds perfectly logical for somebody who was looking to escape un-noticed. Yeah. tell the driver of the car you just carjacked you're the marathon bombers. Then let the driver go. Did they make the driver swear not to tell anyone this?

What are they, attention whores who want to remain invisible?
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:17   #104
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Originally Posted by FCastle88 View Post
So you two keep asking why no one is coming up with solutions on how they could do it without forcing their way into homes, I post several, and now it's "hindsight is 20/20"?
Bud, not to be rude but I also claimed most would use hindsight to build their perfect scenario...which you did.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:17   #105
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Originally Posted by 427 View Post
What happened to the houses where no one was home? Were they searched just like the occupied ones?
No one wants to answer this question - I have ask it myself a few times.

It seems like it sinks the whole idea that forcing people -
THAT ANSWER THE DOOR - out into the street at gun point is the correct choice - when all the homes with (apparently) no one home just get left alone.

It sure seems like a real possibility that if the terrorist was hold up inside a home he would not answer the door - or if he had hostages he would instruct them to not answer the door.

It is like the time I was walking to my car in a parking lot at night - a guy was crawling around on his hands and knees under a street light -

I ask him if was OK - he said yes - he had just lost his car keys over on the other side of the parking lot

So I ask - then why are you over here looking for them?

He looked at me funny and said - because the light is better over here!

Last edited by Z71bill; 04-21-2013 at 12:24..
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:18   #106
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"A search is reasonable, and a search warrant is not required, if all of the circumstances known to the officer at the time, would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry or search was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officer or other persons/the destruction or concealment of evidence/the escape of a suspect, and if there was insufficient time to get a search warrant." http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e063.htm

I guess the question should be, "did they not have time to get warrants?"
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:20   #107
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Can't it be simple? Can't we train cops to read minds and see through walls so that they never have to wonder if someone is guilty, they'll just KNOW. Then the innocent can be exempt from rights trampling thugs.

Can we make them invisible too? It's such a bother when you have to interact with a JBT and decide whether to scream in his face about the 1st, 2nd or 4th Amendments, and if you don't see him AND he can read minds you have the added bonus of not having to scream at him about not being required to show ID!


This whole Boston thing was probably not ideal in MY mind, but some of you need to get a life.....
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:21   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
"A search is reasonable, and a search warrant is not required, if all of the circumstances known to the officer at the time, would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry or search was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officer or other persons/the destruction or concealment of evidence/the escape of a suspect, and if there was insufficient time to get a search warrant." http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e063.htm

I guess the question should be, "did they not have time to get warrants?"
Walk us through the process to acquire a warrant.


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Old 04-21-2013, 12:22   #109
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Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
"A search is reasonable, and a search warrant is not required, if all of the circumstances known to the officer at the time, would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry or search was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officer or other persons/the destruction or concealment of evidence/the escape of a suspect, and if there was insufficient time to get a search warrant." http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e063.htm

I guess the question should be, "did they not have time to get warrants?"

Search warrants for the entire city? It was a fluid situation and they were actively following leads as they were called in. The time it would have taken would have made the warrantless searches necessary to prevent harm to the population and to prevent the escape of the suspect.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:23   #110
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Walk us through the process to acquire a warrant.


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Also wouldn't each individual dwelling require a separate search warrant? I can't imagine a judge can issue blanket search warrants for entire communities.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:23   #111
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No one wants to answer this question - I have ask it myself a few times.

It seems like it sinks the whole idea that forcing people -
THAT ANSWER THE DOOR - out into the street at gun point is the correct choice - when all the homes with (apparently) no one home just get left alone.

It sure seems like a real possibility that if the terrorist was hold up inside a home he would not answer the door - or if he had hostages he would instruct them to not answer the door.
I'll answer it, if that's all he needs. The answer is I don't personally know. If I had to guess I would say yes since that would appear to make the most sense. Those would probably be your favored homes to investigate. In the vids, if accurate, it sounded as though some doors were breached. Those would probably be the homes without answer. I can only lay this out as speculation since I was not there.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:25   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
"A search is reasonable, and a search warrant is not required, if all of the circumstances known to the officer at the time, would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry or search was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officer or other persons/the destruction or concealment of evidence/the escape of a suspect, and if there was insufficient time to get a search warrant." http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e063.htm

I guess the question should be, "did they not have time to get warrants?"
Good question. The next question would be, is that "time enough" in 20/20 hindsight? Or "time enough" at it was happening on that Friday morning (and after the robbery/carjacking/shootout/explosives thrown at police that happened earlier that morning)?

(And how many houses did that involve? Because, you know, you can't get a single warrant to cover something like "all residences in the town of Watertown").
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Last edited by Patchman; 04-21-2013 at 12:30..
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:26   #113
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Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
I guess the question should be, "did they not have time to get warrants?"
You seemed to have the answers before, now you are asking questions? Aight, bud, you get one of these...

ETA: And, it's reasonable time to get warrants...
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:26   #114
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
No. Exigent circumstance is, however.
And they require probable cause

He might be in one of these 50 houses and we really want to catch him is not probable cause.


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Last edited by certifiedfunds; 04-21-2013 at 12:30..
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:27   #115
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Bud, not to be rude but I also claimed most would use hindsight to build their perfect scenario...which you did.
No, most of those were just common sense, and common methods. I threw the hindsight in there because Sheriff733 keeps saying it's all okay because "there was no better way". I merely pointed out that apparently there was a better way.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:28   #116
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Walk us through the process to acquire a warrant.


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You tell me. I asked a valid question and you try to question me? It's clear that exigent circumstances would apply if there was not enough time to obtain valid search warrants. I asked if there was time or not. Feel free to educate me...
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:30   #117
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...

..., attention whores who want to remain invisible?
Invisible Attention Whores sounds like it has signature/rock band name/blockbuster novel potential.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:30   #118
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And they require probable cause


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They narrowed a parameter down to ~20 square blocks. Is that not enough probable cause?

I don't agree with the idea that extreme situations will somehow trump the rights of the citizens. However I don't know whether the fact that they narrowed down his location was enough to support the searches. Just asking.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:31   #119
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No, most of those were just common sense, and common methods. I threw the hindsight in there because Sheriff733 keeps saying it's all okay because "there was no better way". I merely pointed out that apparently there was a better way.
How would it have been know that the suspect would have been found if we lift the lockdown before it actually happened?

We are talking about there being a better way of handling things initially that would have cleared up all the issues the 4th Amendment thumpers here have, rather than knowing the answer after the conclusion of the hunt.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:32   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
You tell me. I asked a valid question and you try to question me? It's clear that exigent circumstances would apply if there was not enough time to obtain valid search warrants. I asked if there was time or not. Feel free to educate me...
No, there was not time, in real time.


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“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:32   #121
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
And they require probable cause

He might be in one of these 50 houses and we really want to catch him is not probable cause.


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He's dangerous, moving quickly and can cover the distance of 50 houses quickly, is.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:33   #122
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You seemed to have the answers before, now you are asking questions? Aight, bud, you get one of these...

ETA: And, it's reasonable time to get warrants...
This made me laugh. Thanks.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:33   #123
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No, most of those were just common sense, and common methods. I threw the hindsight in there because Sheriff733 keeps saying it's all okay because "there was no better way". I merely pointed out that apparently there was a better way.
Then don't be upset when someone calls you on it.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:34   #124
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Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
Exigent circumstances....

The 4th has been posted a dozen times in this thread implying a warrant is needed for all searches which is false. The 4th is actually two separate clauses. The first offers protection from unreasonable searches, exigency is a longstanding warrantless action that is considered reasonable.

The second clause speaks of search warrants in relation to criminal matters. It was written to combat the general warrants of the time issued by the Crown which allowed searches of entire communities for no good reason other than to look for crimes and tax evasion.

The founding fathers understood in an organized society the citizens could not be completely isolated from its government. If not the 4th would simply say "all searches or seizures must be based on probable cause". They chose only to prohibit unreasonable searches and allowed what is reasonable to be defined by the courts.
So explain how a neighborhood sweep of warrant less home searches meets the criteria for exigent circumstances and how officers met the standard of probable cause in this situation.


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Old 04-21-2013, 12:35   #125
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All the LE guys have answers for everything else but this very important question:

In a house to house search, are houses where the owners are not home searched as if the owners are there?
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