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Old 04-21-2013, 11:40   #81
MaxxAction
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94708&page=1

So, if they come to search your house during a "simulation" of a terrorist attack, would you let them? Get ready to make the decision cause you might soon find out.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:41   #82
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Originally Posted by FCastle88 View Post
So you're saying despite the whole area being locked down and searched, including yards, sheds, etc., the guy won't hide in a house because the house might be searched? The whole area is being searched, still probably better off sneaking into someone's basement or attic than waiting around outside to be found.
No, I'm saying that if he is aware that he can force the homeowner to say that everything is ok, and the police won't check into it any further than taking them at their word, he will probably be more tempted to try and break into a home/take hostages knowing it's a possible way out.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:42   #83
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Well, I guess that would suck if instead it was a family held hostage and unable to answer...hopefully their house was next in line. But then again, obviously there are enough LEO where wasting time discussing and waiting for warrants for an abundance of houses is no big deal...
I wonder if that carjacking victim would have been safer if the police had been there to help. I don't know. If the bomber had my family tied up I would be more worried about being blown up in a rescue attempt. I might feel differently if they were successful, but like someone said earlier; crystal balls are hard to come by.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:43   #84
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Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC View Post
Yep. Now that you have said that, however, there should be someone along any moment to give the perfect solution utilizing hindsight as a foundation.
Obviously I would have gone to that boat and climbed in the boat with a couple other guys had an airplane (not helicopter) higher up watching to let me know as he was approaching and taken him down as he climbed up into the boat. Seems simple enough.
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Whether or not you think forcibly removing Americans from their homes, in the name of public saftey, is good idea or not, there should be little doubt that the terrorists now know they can shut down a major metropolitan area with just one or two guys.
And the terrorist also know that we will hunt them down vigorously and use all our resources to capture them if we can and kill them if we cannot. We have let them known we will react to them instantly and decisively. And we have let the terrorists know that a day after they are caught we will be back to business and baseball games and basketball games and mass transit and such as usual. We have let them known they can shut us down for a day or two but that they will not substantially change our lifestyle.
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In before "All they had to do was check backyards for boats."
Didn't even have to check all the backyards. Just that one.

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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
Yep, the terrorists have won.
No, one terrorist is dead. The second is in custody. And the next day people went to see the Sox and rode the T and got jammed up in traffic on Route 3 and the Dow gained ten points and Deval once again proved to be a better orator than Barrack (not difficult to do.) And life in Watertown and Back Bay and Quincy and Topsfield was just about the same as it was before.

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Not only has the government trampled the constitution but a large percent of the people believe it's the right thing to do.

Maybe they did. And maybe they were operating under exigent circumstances, and any of several of the searches would be allowed by the courts. And our society is still functioning and relatively orderly and we are still eating way better than they are in Chechnya and today police are not doing door to door searches. Some may believe that it would be better to continue to let the terrorists be at large especially from the safety of the keyboard. But more than a few of us think that our rights are no good if we are afraid to go about our daily lives cowering in fear of the terrorists.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:45   #85
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No, I'm saying that if he is aware that he can force the homeowner to say that everything is ok, and the police won't check into it any further than taking them at their word, he will probably be more tempted to try and break into a home/take hostages knowing it's a possible way out.
I understand what you are saying, but that could be said about any dangerous person on the run.

I wouldn't be willing to allow these kinds of searches for every armed and dangerous fugitive.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:46   #86
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Originally Posted by MaxxAction View Post
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=94708&page=1

So, if they come to search your house during a "simulation" of a terrorist attack, would you let them? Get ready to make the decision cause you might soon find out.
I didn't get that vibe from the article...at all. What did I miss?
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:48   #87
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What if another household decides not to answer the door since they have done nothing wrong and will decline consent regardless?
If the police have probable cause to believe he's inside, no warrant needed. Otherwise, they need to wait.



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Old 04-21-2013, 11:48   #88
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I didn't get that vibe from the article...at all. What did I miss?
I didn't either necessarily....

but nothing would surpise me.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:48   #89
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Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
I wonder if that carjacking victim would have been safer if the police had been there to help. I don't know. If the bomber had my family tied up I would be more worried about being blown up in a rescue attempt. I might feel differently if they were successful, but like someone said earlier; crystal balls are hard to come by.
You're right. You should just sit there, with your family and the suspect...and wait. Somehow without a resue atempt it will all work itself out. Good luck!
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:49   #90
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I was not aware you were a judge.
I'm not. I am literate though.




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Old 04-21-2013, 11:53   #91
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If the police have probable cause to believe he's inside, no warrant needed. Otherwise, they need to wait.



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Yes, of course. Give the suspect more time to plan. Pretty good idea.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:54   #92
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Yeah, all I see are a bunch of folks complaining about the way it was handled, but I don't see any solutions being offered for a way to do it and stay within their guidelines, other than just keep driving around looking for the gunman and wait for more bombs to go off killing more innocent people.
The whole city was essentially locked down, pretty much everyone was staying inside, except for LEO's and reporters/cameras everywhere. The guy has to make a move sooner or later, so yes, drive around looking for the guy. Search with helicopters, investigate tips of people out on the streets during the lock down, bring in search dogs, wait for someone to call about someone hiding in their yard. Fact is, he wasn't found by the house searches, he was found by citizens looking for anything suspicious and reporting it.

As for waiting for more bombs to go off, he seemed more interested in escaping than committing more attacks. But what do you think he's going to do if he's cornered, like if he was hiding in a house and SWAT showed up to search it?
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:55   #93
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The whole city was essentially locked down, pretty much everyone was staying inside, except for LEO's and reporters/cameras everywhere. The guy has to make a move sooner or later, so yes, drive around looking for the guy. Search with helicopters, investigate tips of people out on the streets during the lock down, bring in search dogs, wait for someone to call about someone hiding in their yard. Fact is, he wasn't found by the house searches, he was found by citizens looking for anything suspicious and reporting it.

As for waiting for more bombs to go off, he seemed more interested in escaping than committing more attacks. But what do you think he's going to do if he's cornered, like if he was hiding in a house and SWAT showed up to search it?
Hindsight is 20/20, is it not?
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:57   #94
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Yes, of course. Give the suspect more time to plan. Pretty good idea.
Since TBO brought up judges, is "pretty good idea" a legal standard?

The 4th Amendment, unless its not a good idea


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Old 04-21-2013, 11:57   #95
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They got the scumbag Muslim terrorist before he killed and maimed any more innocent people.

Unfortunately they ruffled some GT feathers.

Too bad.

So sad.
Got it, the end justifies the means. If it only saves one life it's worth it.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:58   #96
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Originally Posted by DocwithGlock View Post
I understand what you are saying, but that could be said about any dangerous person on the run.

I wouldn't be willing to allow these kinds of searches for every armed and dangerous fugitive.
That's true, but in this case, they KNOW there is one very close by that was involved in the killing of a police officer, setting off a bomb in a crowded area, having a shootout with police, throwing bombs and grenades at them during pursuit, possibly wearing a bomb as a vest, and has taken cover in the area. This is no fugitive who skipped out on bail wanted on a theft case from a couple states over. Different case completely.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:00   #97
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Since TBO brought up judges, is "pretty good idea" a legal standard?


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No. Exigent circumstance is, however.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:00   #98
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"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

As it turns out, the suspect was not in the parameter set by the police nor was he in anybody's house. This is very troubling to say the least.
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Probably judges who filled out all of those warrants describing the probable cause and specifying which houses to search.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Neither of you two actually understand the application of the fourth amendment, do you?

The US Constitution is not a blood pact.

It's a series of fairly simple rules, all of which have to do with the legal system.

If the JBT's from BPD kick in your door, trample over your rights, eat your fried chicken, drink your soda, poop in your bathroom, and then leave, you have a court case. You don't get to do anything about it then and there.

If, in the process of searching for said terrorists, your local constabulary discover your weed farm in the back bedroom, they have two options: seize it or ignore it.

If they seize it, the case is hosed. Even under the exigent circumstances exception, I don't think I could make this stick. Fruits of an unlawful search.

So, the instructions the PD got were likely along the line of: "Unless you witness a violent felony, they get a free pass today" and they continued mission.

And somehow, it all worked out. CF and the rest of the sovereign citizens are butthurt, but they always are, so who cares? They'll get up on their soapboxes and preach to the masses, but when the rubber hits the road, they'll either act like any other normal human being, or go to jail/die trying, and think that they're martyrs.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:02   #99
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Under these circumstances, that's what normal citizens would gladly do to get the terrorist out of their neighborhood. But, you're about to be called an idiot. Wait for it.
In this case, if they knocked on my door and asked to search my house I'd probably say go ahead, just let me secure the dogs first. However, in some of the videos online, this is not what happened. The people in the houses weren't given a chance to consent to a search, they were immediately ordered outside at gunpoint as the swat team essentially forced their way inside the home, ordering anyone they found inside out at gunpoint.
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Old 04-21-2013, 12:07   #100
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Exigent circumstance, a definition for those unfamiliar.

"Those circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry (or other relevant prompt action) was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officers or other persons, the destruction of relevant evidence, the escape of a suspect, or some other consequence improperly frustrating legitimate law enforcement efforts.' United States v. McConney, 728 F.2d 1195, 1199 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 469 U.S. 824 (1984)."

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e063.htm

I personally think it would apply here but a judge may see it differently.

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