GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2013, 11:55   #1
singularity35
Senior Member
 
singularity35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Small City, Philippines
Posts: 324
Recommendation: Good, reasonably priced lvl 2 inside vest

Can you guys recommend a reasonably priced lvl 2 vest that's concealable? Thanks.
__________________
Guns don't kill, proper sight picture and trigger control does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?
singularity35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 16:11   #2
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
http://www.bulletproofme.com/

Premium Kevlar Level II (0.23"thick) is $450.

Police Surplus from $200 to $250.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 16:46   #3
singularity35
Senior Member
 
singularity35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Small City, Philippines
Posts: 324
Thanks!

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
Guns don't kill, proper sight picture and trigger control does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?
singularity35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 16:52   #4
Gregg702
Gold Membership
 
 
Gregg702's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 6,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
http://www.bulletproofme.com/

Premium Kevlar Level II (0.23"thick) is $450.

Police Surplus from $200 to $250.
I would avoid the police surplus, body armor has an expiration date, and the surplus stuff is usually close to expired, or already there.
__________________
Shooting guns in the following calibers: .22lr, 38spl, 9x19mm, .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .45ACP, 5.7x28mm, 5.56x45mm, 6.8SPC, 12 Gauge
Gregg702 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 17:08   #5
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,165
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Why a level II? With the advent of IIIa concealable why even bother?
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 18:06   #6
singularity35
Senior Member
 
singularity35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Small City, Philippines
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg702 View Post
I would avoid the police surplus, body armor has an expiration date, and the surplus stuff is usually close to expired, or already there.
I wondered about that. Does that mean it's no longer effectuve?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Why a level II? With the advent of IIIa concealable why even bother?
Aren't lvl 2's thinner(more comfortable)? A bit cooler helps since we have 28-31 centigrade temps.
__________________
Guns don't kill, proper sight picture and trigger control does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?
singularity35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 19:00   #7
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg702 View Post
I would avoid the police surplus, body armor has an expiration date, and the surplus stuff is usually close to expired, or already there.
Some of the Kevlar alternatives do expire, but Kevlar doesn't expire. They put a 5 year expiration date on them because it helps them sell more vests. As long as it is in good condition and made out of Kevlar that date means nothing.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 19:14   #8
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Why a level II? With the advent of IIIa concealable why even bother?
Level II verses Level IIIa. No real difference in penetration protection. Main difference is blunt trama protection which like the expiration date has never been proven to be real for Kevlar vests.

Basically somebody took a block of modelling clay and put it behind a vest. They then shot the vest with different calibers of ammo and measured how big a dent each made in the modelling clay. Level IIIa vests have more layers than level II vest and are stiffer so you get a smaller dent in the clay all things being equal.

Problem is nobody has ever examined this scientifically to see if modelling clay is a reasonable analog for a human being, nor has anyone ever linked the size of the dent in the modelling clay to any difference in outcomes for the person wearing the vest. It is intuitive to think a IIIa vest should be better than a II vest, but there is no real world evidence to back this opinion up. Basically as long as it is not fired from a rifle and the bullet hits the vest, the bullet is stopped and the person lives. Miss the vest or is fired from a rifle, bullet penetrates and does whatever it does.

If you look at the test results, level II vests are not penetrated by handgun or shotgun ammo any more than level IIIa vests are. A rifle goes right through either of them without the slightest difficulty.

Level IIIa vests are heavier and stiffer than level II vests so they are harder to conceal, are hotter and are much less comfortable to wear long term.

A level II vest that you will actually wear is infinitely better than a IIIa vest sitting in the trunk of your car. Personally I think a better option is a level II vest for general wear and a Level III or IV plate carrier for when you know you are likely to get shot at.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.

Last edited by Haldor; 04-27-2013 at 19:18..
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 19:49   #9
singularity35
Senior Member
 
singularity35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Small City, Philippines
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
Some of the Kevlar alternatives do expire, but Kevlar doesn't expire. They put a 5 year expiration date on them because it helps them sell more vests. As long as it is in good condition and made out of Kevlar that date means nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
Level II verses Level IIIa. No real difference in penetration protection. Main difference is blunt trama protection which like the expiration date has never been proven to be real for Kevlar vests.

Basically somebody took a block of modelling clay and put it behind a vest. They then shot the vest with different calibers of ammo and measured how big a dent each made in the modelling clay. Level IIIa vests have more layers than level II vest and are stiffer so you get a smaller dent in the clay all things being equal.

Problem is nobody has ever examined this scientifically to see if modelling clay is a reasonable analog for a human being, nor has anyone ever linked the size of the dent in the modelling clay to any difference in outcomes for the person wearing the vest. It is intuitive to think a IIIa vest should be better than a II vest, but there is no real world evidence to back this opinion up. Basically as long as it is not fired from a rifle and the bullet hits the vest, the bullet is stopped and the person lives. Miss the vest or is fired from a rifle, bullet penetrates and does whatever it does.

If you look at the test results, level II vests are not penetrated by handgun or shotgun ammo any more than level IIIa vests are. A rifle goes right through either of them without the slightest difficulty.

Level IIIa vests are heavier and stiffer than level II vests so they are harder to conceal, are hotter and are much less comfortable to wear long term.

A level II vest that you will actually wear is infinitely better than a IIIa vest sitting in the trunk of your car. Personally I think a better option is a level II vest for general wear and a Level III or IV plate carrier for when you know you are likely to get shot at.
Thanks! That information is really what I need. I don't really expect to get shot at but me and my friends have got it into our heads to get vests and if I'm to get one, at least I have reasonable expectations on pricing and capabilities(of the vest).
__________________
Guns don't kill, proper sight picture and trigger control does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?
singularity35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 20:07   #10
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,165
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
Level II verses Level IIIa. No real difference in penetration protection. Main difference is blunt trama protection which like the expiration date has never been proven to be real for Kevlar vests.

Basically somebody took a block of modelling clay and put it behind a vest. They then shot the vest with different calibers of ammo and measured how big a dent each made in the modelling clay. Level IIIa vests have more layers than level II vest and are stiffer so you get a smaller dent in the clay all things being equal.

Problem is nobody has ever examined this scientifically to see if modelling clay is a reasonable analog for a human being, nor has anyone ever linked the size of the dent in the modelling clay to any difference in outcomes for the person wearing the vest. It is intuitive to think a IIIa vest should be better than a II vest, but there is no real world evidence to back this opinion up. Basically as long as it is not fired from a rifle and the bullet hits the vest, the bullet is stopped and the person lives. Miss the vest or is fired from a rifle, bullet penetrates and does whatever it does.

If you look at the test results, level II vests are not penetrated by handgun or shotgun ammo any more than level IIIa vests are. A rifle goes right through either of them without the slightest difficulty.

Level IIIa vests are heavier and stiffer than level II vests so they are harder to conceal, are hotter and are much less comfortable to wear long term.

A level II vest that you will actually wear is infinitely better than a IIIa vest sitting in the trunk of your car. Personally I think a better option is a level II vest for general wear and a Level III or IV plate carrier for when you know you are likely to get shot at.


As someone who's worn armor professionally, for vast periods of time, I don't find there to be a large difference in the wearability of the two.


However, I do find the additional protection of the IIIa, over II to be significant. Especially considering the popularity of those specific rounds its stops, that II is not certified to stop.
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 20:29   #11
singularity35
Senior Member
 
singularity35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Small City, Philippines
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
As someone who's worn armor professionally, for vast periods of time, I don't find there to be a large difference in the wearability of the two.


However, I do find the additional protection of the IIIa, over II to be significant. Especially considering the popularity of those specific rounds its stops, that II is not certified to stop.

Thanks! Althoug special ammo is hard to find here(even us gun guys have a hard time getting them), additional protection is always a good thing if there's not a big price to be paid in wearability.
__________________
Guns don't kill, proper sight picture and trigger control does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?
singularity35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 20:33   #12
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,167


Quote:
Originally Posted by singularity35 View Post
Aren't lvl 2's thinner(more comfortable)? A bit cooler helps since we have 28-31 centigrade temps.
No difference. No vest moves air through it no matter the level. A 2 may be more comfortable because it is lighter and more flexible but that is as far as it goes.
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 20:42   #13
singularity35
Senior Member
 
singularity35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Small City, Philippines
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
No difference. No vest moves air through it no matter the level. A 2 may be more comfortable because it is lighter and more flexible but that is as far as it goes.
Good to know that, thanks!
__________________
Guns don't kill, proper sight picture and trigger control does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW1178 View Post
So what makes all human life so valuable? Who said? A cooky religion?
singularity35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 20:45   #14
CAcop
Senior Member
 
CAcop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California
Posts: 21,237
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
No difference. No vest moves air through it no matter the level. A 2 may be more comfortable because it is lighter and more flexible but that is as far as it goes.
No difference between the two in terms of comfort really because it is like wrapping yourself in saranwrap. At work people not wearing body armor wonder how I can get away with short sleeves or no jacket when they are cold. I remind them that I have 1/4 inch of Kevlar wrapped around my torso.
__________________
I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
CAcop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 21:04   #15
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,167


Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
No difference between the two in terms of comfort really because it is like wrapping yourself in saranwrap. At work people not wearing body armor wonder how I can get away with short sleeves or no jacket when they are cold. I remind them that I have 1/4 inch of Kevlar wrapped around my torso.
Yup.....I love going outside in summer with basically the insulation a winter coat offers.
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 08:07   #16
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
As someone who's worn armor professionally, for vast periods of time, I don't find there to be a large difference in the wearability of the two.


However, I do find the additional protection of the IIIa, over II to be significant. Especially considering the popularity of those specific rounds its stops, that II is not certified to stop.
Did you wear them concealed or over your clothes? You are correct if you are wearing it like a jacket. The difference in thickness and stiffness is significant however when you are trying to conceal the vest. I have both a level II and a IIIa vest and the level II vest is less uncomfortable to wear. Even the Level II vest is not a lot of fun to wear in the summer.

What rounds are you referring to that the level IIIa vest stops that a Level II vest won't stop? I got a Level II sample panel from bulletproofme and I was unable to penetrate it with my .44 magnum (hard cast 240g from an 8-3/8" barrel). This sample was over 10 years old too. I am sure it would hurt like hell to get shot with any vest on, but as long as it doesn't penetrate, the odds are I am going to live through the experience.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.

Last edited by Haldor; 04-28-2013 at 08:22..
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 08:21   #17
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
When you guys are talking about concealable Level IIIa are you talking about a Kevlar vest or one of the alternatives (GoldFlex, etc)? GoldFlex is a lot thinner (a GoldFlex Level IIIa is the same thickness as a Kevlar II), but I am not convinced these are as reliable.

I personally am only willing to trust Kevlar bullet resistant vests. Kevlar has been proven to hold up to high temperatures and high humidity and to not lose effectiveness over time.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 08:42   #18
ray9898
Senior Member
 
ray9898's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Georgia
Posts: 17,167


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldor View Post
What rounds are you referring to that the level IIIa vest stops that a Level II vest won't stop? I got a Level II sample panel from bulletproofme and I was unable to penetrate it with my .44 magnum (hard cast 240g from an 8-3/8" barrel). This sample was over 10 years old too. I am sure it would hurt like hell to get shot with any vest on, but as long as it doesn't penetrate, the odds are I am going to live through the experience.
There are plenty of factory loads a II will not stop, specifically a 9mm load over 1100fps.
ray9898 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 19:56   #19
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
Quote:
Originally Posted by ray9898 View Post
There are plenty of factory loads a II will not stop, specifically a 9mm load over 1100fps.
And yet it will stop a 240g, .44 magnum at 1500 PFS. I think there is something wrong with your data. The "failure" from 9mm at 1100 FPS relates to the size of the dent in the clay behind the vest, not that the round penetrated it. There are some pistol rounds that can penetrate a level II vest (some 5.7x28 and 7.62x25), but these are very uncommon (the 5.7 ammo that will do this is going for $10 a round and it will penetrate a level IIIa vest as well).

If you define a vest failure by the size of the dent in a lump of clay behind the vest then I guess you can say a level II vest failed, however I know of only one death attributed to blunt trauma that didn't penetrate the vest. People die from hard impacts to the chest (Commotio cordis killed 188 between 1996 to 2007) so this is not impossible. However in the overwhelming majority of cases, if the bullet doesn't penetrate or miss the vest then the person lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commotio_cordis

That is not to say being shot while wearing a vest is no big deal. Anybody shot wearing a ballistic vest needs medical attention.

There haven't been many studies of this subject. Here a report from one of them.

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/m...issue_id=82008
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.

Last edited by Haldor; 05-02-2013 at 20:30..
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 20:13   #20
Haldor
Retired EE
 
Haldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Arizona
Posts: 5,545
If you are interested in the choice of modelling clay for testing ballistic vests here is a link to the research behind it.

http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2012/ARL-RP-390.pdf

Modelling clay was chosen solely because it was cheap and easy to use and gave easily measured results (ballistic gel required high speed cameras to measure temporary deformity and that was too hard). The researchers never established that dent depth in modeling clay had any correlation to severity of wounds.

In addition they never had a single blunt trauma induced death in any of the animal tests they performed. Despite this they picked 44 mm because it was the average dent depth they measured with the load and vest they happened to be testing. How they were able to make the claim that 44 mm was the 95% survival limit when 100% of the test subjects survived is beyond me.

Talk about scientific rigor! if I was grading this research I would give it a D at best.
__________________
Quote:
Guys! Guys! He's down! Stop kicking him! If he shows up on another thread, Tasers are indicated, but for now, let him slink off into the shadows to lick his wounds and ponder how deeply cool and misunderstood he is!
Hoot nred Mrs. Vr.

Last edited by Haldor; 05-02-2013 at 20:22..
Haldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:54.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,425
448 Members
977 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42