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Old 04-28-2013, 14:40   #1
Dizzy Beaver
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PSA BCG problems - help?

I recently received my M16 BCG from PSA and installed it on my Bushmaster 16" HBAR.

Yesterday I got it out and shot it and ended up having all sorts of problems with it. I had also replaced the trigger with an ALG QMS (which functioned flawlessly), but had my original buffer installed. I had six magazines with me: 2 pre-ban 20-rnd mags with original allow followers, 2 pre-ban (1992) Center Industries magazines with new Wolff springs, and 2 new D&H industries teflon-coated aluminum magazines.

I started out with 3 magazines with 5 rounds of IMI M855 each - two 20-rnd mags and a D&H magazine. The first 20-rnd mag went through just fine. When I put the second 20-rnd magazine in and released the bolt catch, the top round got hung up about half-way up the feed ramp. Once I got the round back into the magazine and used the charging handle to chamber the top round, the rest of the magazine went through just fine.

I cycled through a few dozen rounds without any issues, and then things went quickly downhill from there.

Several times, the bolt would gouge a deep groove in the brass when trying to strip it out of the magazine. When I say deep, I mean heavily dented (at least 1/32" deep and sometimes 1/16" deep). The dents ranged from a half inch to the entire length of the round before the bolt just stopped in place.

After 100 rounds of IMI, I switched to PMC XTAC M193. I put 20 rounds in a 20-round magazine and the first round fired just fine, but then no matter how many times I pulled the charging handle back, it would not strip the top round out of the magazine. I dropped the magazine and tried to re-insert it, and it wouldn't even lock into the mag well. I made sure that the mag release wasn't stuck (it wasn't) and tried again, and the magazine (a 30-rnd with 19 rounds in it) just would not latch in place. I switched to a different 30-round magazine with 20 rounds of PMC Bronze in it and it wouldn't seat either.

I was about to give up shooting for the day but decided to put my original Bushmaster BCG in place and give it a shot. It fired both magazines without any issues.

I looked at the PSA BCG briefly but didn't see anything that looked wrong with it, but haven't had time to compare the bolt side-by-side with my Bushmaster bolt.

Does anybody know what could be causing this? I managed to get about 100 rounds through the PSA BCG but it was very frustrating and constantly jamming (bolt embedding itself into the side of the brass and finally not being able to seat magazines at all), and then did 60 rounds with the original Bushmaster BCG without any malfunctions.

Help?

Thank you!
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Old 04-28-2013, 14:44   #2
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Didn't you say in another thread that the PSA BCG was tight in your upper?
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Old 04-28-2013, 15:01   #3
Dizzy Beaver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf View Post
Didn't you say in another thread that the PSA BCG was tight in your upper?
No, the PSA BCG slides very smoothly in the upper. The bolt is tight inside the BCG, though.
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Old 04-28-2013, 15:11   #4
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I just got one of these bcgs also so I am keeping an eye on this one. I won't be getting mine out for a couple of weeks though.

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Old 04-28-2013, 15:18   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy Beaver View Post
No, the PSA BCG slides very smoothly in the upper. The bolt is tight inside the BCG, though.
It's normal for a new bolt with new gas rings to be tight.

Was the bolt locking back on an empty magazine?
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Old 04-28-2013, 15:26   #6
Dizzy Beaver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodenPlank View Post
It's normal for a new bolt with new gas rings to be tight.

Was the bolt locking back on an empty magazine?
Yes, the bolt locked back every time the magazine was empty.
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Old 04-28-2013, 16:56   #7
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Does it happen with 30 round mags? I have experienced issues with 20 round mags failing to strip rounds. But I've never had an issue with 30's. my first guess is that it is a magazine issue, although the fact that the Bushmaster bolt strips them doesn't support my theory.
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Old 04-28-2013, 17:18   #8
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How well did you lube the new BCG?
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Old 04-28-2013, 17:32   #9
Dizzy Beaver
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I've never had a problem with the 20 round magazines in the past, and I actually prefer them to the 30 round magazines because it's easier to shoot from a bench with them (the 30-round magazines are too long).

Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
How well did you lube the new BCG?
I always keep the BCG very wet. I just started using Slip 2000 EWL so the PSA BCG was thoroughly wet with that. I gave the Bushmaster the same thorough cleaning with Slip 2000 EWL so they were in identical condition prior to shooting.


I'm going to try to clean my AR tonight so I'll examine both BCGs to see if I can tell any difference between them, especially with respect to the bolt itself. For some reason, it just seems that the PSA BCG is sliding over the top of the round instead of pushing it forward. It seems to be happening on both sides of the magazine, too. The first failure to feed was on the left side of the ramp. I specifically recall the longest gouge in the brass being on a round from the right side of the magazine. I *think* that the deepest gouge was also on the right side of the magazine.

I really don't think it's the magazines as I was using three completely different magazines and all functioned flawlessly with the Bushmaster BCG. When I gave up on the PSA BCG, I couldn't get two of my thirty-round magazines to even seat in the rifle. They were different brands and one is 21 years old, the other is a few months old. Both immediately worked when I put the Bushmaster BCG in.

Maybe I'll see something as I'm taking it apart...might try putting the PSA BCG back in before I clean it and just see if I can seat a magazine with a couple of snap caps in it...
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Old 04-28-2013, 17:42   #10
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Try it with your Bushmaster bolt in the PSA carrier.

SC
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Old 04-28-2013, 17:54   #11
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Quick update. I may not have time to clean it tonight (very busy week) but I did just look at both bolts side-by-side and everything looks identical as far as I can tell (apart from the obvious extra metal on the back of the BCG that makes it the M16 model). Parts all look the same size - nothing obviously different to my untrained eye.

I put the PSA BCG back in and it seats the magazine just fine now. I wonder if it's something that only shows up when the gun gets hot...


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCity View Post
Try it with your Bushmaster bolt in the PSA carrier.

SC
It's going to be a while before I can get out and shoot again. Just happened to get the use of a friend's farm about an hour away this weekend but it will be at least another month (probably two) before I get that opportunity again. As for now, I'm stuck with the indoor range where I can only shoot hp, sp, and varmint so I can't even try the same ammo.
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Old 04-28-2013, 18:13   #12
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interesting. was thinking of puttign an order for a PSA BGC in, but was skeptical on quality. hoipe you find the reason yours if off.
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Old 04-28-2013, 19:17   #13
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I have one of these BCG en route as well. I hope it's GTG.
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Old 04-28-2013, 20:01   #14
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Dizzy Beaver
So please explain how the BCG is cause your feeding issues? You have multiple different manufactured mags! I say you have a MAGAZINE issue! Put the BCG back in and use ONE TYPE OF MAGAZINE! And also why the hell did you feel the need to change out the perfectly good Bushy BCG? If you have a stock Bushmaster rifle use it as is an quit messing with it!
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Old 04-28-2013, 20:32   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
Dizzy Beaver
So please explain how the BCG is cause your feeding issues? You have multiple different manufactured mags! I say you have a MAGAZINE issue! Put the BCG back in and use ONE TYPE OF MAGAZINE! And also why the hell did you feel the need to change out the perfectly good Bushy BCG? If you have a stock Bushmaster rifle use it as is an quit messing with it!
Not sure if serious...
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:09   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
Dizzy Beaver
So please explain how the BCG is cause your feeding issues? You have multiple different manufactured mags! I say you have a MAGAZINE issue! Put the BCG back in and use ONE TYPE OF MAGAZINE! And also why the hell did you feel the need to change out the perfectly good Bushy BCG? If you have a stock Bushmaster rifle use it as is an quit messing with it!

Reading is fundamental,.......read the ENTIRE thread!
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:06   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
Dizzy Beaver
So please explain how the BCG is cause your feeding issues? You have multiple different manufactured mags! I say you have a MAGAZINE issue! Put the BCG back in and use ONE TYPE OF MAGAZINE! And also why the hell did you feel the need to change out the perfectly good Bushy BCG? If you have a stock Bushmaster rifle use it as is an quit messing with it!
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:46   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy Beaver View Post
I recently received my M16 BCG from PSA and installed it on my Bushmaster 16" HBAR.

Yesterday I got it out and shot it and ended up having all sorts of problems with it. I had also replaced the trigger with an ALG QMS (which functioned flawlessly), but had my original buffer installed. I had six magazines with me: 2 pre-ban 20-rnd mags with original allow followers, 2 pre-ban (1992) Center Industries magazines with new Wolff springs, and 2 new D&H industries teflon-coated aluminum magazines.

I started out with 3 magazines with 5 rounds of IMI M855 each - two 20-rnd mags and a D&H magazine. The first 20-rnd mag went through just fine. When I put the second 20-rnd magazine in and released the bolt catch, the top round got hung up about half-way up the feed ramp. Once I got the round back into the magazine and used the charging handle to chamber the top round, the rest of the magazine went through just fine.

I cycled through a few dozen rounds without any issues, and then things went quickly downhill from there.

Several times, the bolt would gouge a deep groove in the brass when trying to strip it out of the magazine. When I say deep, I mean heavily dented (at least 1/32" deep and sometimes 1/16" deep). The dents ranged from a half inch to the entire length of the round before the bolt just stopped in place.

After 100 rounds of IMI, I switched to PMC XTAC M193. I put 20 rounds in a 20-round magazine and the first round fired just fine, but then no matter how many times I pulled the charging handle back, it would not strip the top round out of the magazine. I dropped the magazine and tried to re-insert it, and it wouldn't even lock into the mag well. I made sure that the mag release wasn't stuck (it wasn't) and tried again, and the magazine (a 30-rnd with 19 rounds in it) just would not latch in place. I switched to a different 30-round magazine with 20 rounds of PMC Bronze in it and it wouldn't seat either.

I was about to give up shooting for the day but decided to put my original Bushmaster BCG in place and give it a shot. It fired both magazines without any issues.

I looked at the PSA BCG briefly but didn't see anything that looked wrong with it, but haven't had time to compare the bolt side-by-side with my Bushmaster bolt.

Does anybody know what could be causing this? I managed to get about 100 rounds through the PSA BCG but it was very frustrating and constantly jamming (bolt embedding itself into the side of the brass and finally not being able to seat magazines at all), and then did 60 rounds with the original Bushmaster BCG without any malfunctions.

Help?

Thank you!
Well gee I did read the freaking post and all the failure are Magazine issues not Bolt issues! The op needs to stop screwing with the rifle - put it back into original configuration!
As he said when it was in the original config -it worked just fine! Buffer /spring made to work with Original BCG , M16 PSA BCG heavier- failed to cycle fully to strip off next round from Mag, weak feed lips on mag. Malfunction occured!
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Old 04-29-2013, 14:52   #19
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Leaving it alone in the first place is the right idea. I am just curious as to why it won't work right with the PSA BCG.

Good luck Dizzy

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Old 04-30-2013, 17:27   #20
Dizzy Beaver
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Today's word of the day is....dry. The PSA BCG was dripping with Slip 2000 EWL when I put it into the rifle. I couldn't even put 100 rounds through it and it was malfunctioning like crazy. I pulled it out and replaced it with the Bushmaster BCG and shot 60 rounds through that.

I'm cleaning the rifle now and the PSA BCG is very dry. I'm shocked since it was dripping wet when I put it in the rifle. Don't know where all that EWL went. The Bushmaster BCG still looks pretty wet but I haven't taken it apart yet to see what it's like on the inside. Don't know how it got so dry in so few rounds but I think I'll be going back to Breakfree CLP and hope this was the cause of all the failures...not sure how it would cause those failures, but hopefully that's all it was.

I did notice that the firing pin sticks when putting it into the BCG, like it's getting hung up at some point and I have to push it through. Wonder if that has something to do with it? Wish I knew what was causing the problem since I won't get the rifle back out to the range for a while.
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Old 04-30-2013, 17:36   #21
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I ordered a spare extractor from PSA last year when I was building my rifle and it had some metal flashing left around part of the main hole. The part was in spec, just not properly quality-controlled. Caused me to buy a BCM BCG instead.

Check over your BCG and make sure there's no piece sticking out or lodged somewhere...or just get PSA to replace it.
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Old 04-30-2013, 18:03   #22
Dizzy Beaver
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I don't know if it's relevant or not, but I did find that the retaining ring on the firing pin in the PSA BCG is much wider than on the AR15. I found this thread that explains the difference:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=17&t=243161

Both my PSA M16 BCG and Bushmaster AR15 BCG are fully shrouded.

Edited to add: I'm also noticing that when I put the cam pin into the bolt (with the bolt not in the bolt carrier), I can turn it clockwise but not counterclockwise. When I attempt to turn it counterclockwise, it freezes up - rock solid and won't move, and then it takes quite a bit of effort to turn it clockwise. I first noticed it when I would put the cam pin into the bolt while the bolt was inside of the bolt carrier. It takes several attempts and some work to get it to rotate into position.

The cam pin on the Bushmaster bolt rotates freely both clockwise and counterclockwise without any effort.

Last edited by Dizzy Beaver; 04-30-2013 at 18:18..
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Old 04-30-2013, 18:43   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy Beaver View Post
Today's word of the day is....dry. The PSA BCG was dripping with Slip 2000 EWL when I put it into the rifle. I couldn't even put 100 rounds through it and it was malfunctioning like crazy. I pulled it out and replaced it with the Bushmaster BCG and shot 60 rounds through that.

I'm cleaning the rifle now and the PSA BCG is very dry. I'm shocked since it was dripping wet when I put it in the rifle. Don't know where all that EWL went. The Bushmaster BCG still looks pretty wet but I haven't taken it apart yet to see what it's like on the inside. Don't know how it got so dry in so few rounds but I think I'll be going back to Breakfree CLP and hope this was the cause of all the failures...not sure how it would cause those failures, but hopefully that's all it was.

I did notice that the firing pin sticks when putting it into the BCG, like it's getting hung up at some point and I have to push it through. Wonder if that has something to do with it? Wish I knew what was causing the problem since I won't get the rifle back out to the range for a while.
The SLIP isn't your problem, and the fact that it didn't dry up on the Bushmaster BCG shows that. Either it cooked off (unlikely) or possibly soaked into the surface of the BCG. You don't need the bolt dripping wet to run reliably, just the wear points. The cam pin, gas rings, firing pin, and bolt tail are the most important areas to worry about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzy Beaver View Post
I don't know if it's relevant or not, but I did find that the retaining ring on the firing pin in the PSA BCG is much wider than on the AR15. I found this thread that explains the difference:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...&f=17&t=243161

Both my PSA M16 BCG and Bushmaster AR15 BCG are fully shrouded.

Edited to add: I'm also noticing that when I put the cam pin into the bolt (with the bolt not in the bolt carrier), I can turn it clockwise but not counterclockwise. When I attempt to turn it counterclockwise, it freezes up - rock solid and won't move, and then it takes quite a bit of effort to turn it clockwise. I first noticed it when I would put the cam pin into the bolt while the bolt was inside of the bolt carrier. It takes several attempts and some work to get it to rotate into position.

The cam pin on the Bushmaster bolt rotates freely both clockwise and counterclockwise without any effort.
The rough cam pin is likely the problem. Try swapping the cam pin from the Bushmaster, and see if the problem persists. If it does, then it's your bolt.

I will say this, too - I recently sent my PSA mid-length upper back for warranty after having accuracy problems with it - 6 to 8" groups at 100 yards. They issued a UPS label, and it made it from me to them, through their armorer, and back in my hands in 6 days. So far, I am impressed with the new and improved PSA customer service. I'm hoping to have it on the range tomorrow to see if the accuracy problems are fixed.

In short, I'd suggest contacting PSA. Give them a chance to make it right.
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Old 04-30-2013, 19:16   #24
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I am curious as to why you're replacing the "working" Bushmaster BCG with the PSA BCG.

I briefly considered swapping one of the BCM BCGs I have into my RRA upper to "upgrade" my RRA BCG.... but then I remembered that it's been running like a top for the last decade and has given my zero reason to mess with it.
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Old 04-30-2013, 19:35   #25
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Thanks, WoodenPlank. I tried to give them a call but they're closed. It all makes sense if it's a sticking cam pin. If the bolt can't rotate properly, it wouldn't have been in the correct position to pick up the rounds off of the top of the magazine, hence the deep gouges in the brass and constantly jamming. I put the cam pin into my Bushmaster bolt and it spins nice and freely. I tried the Bushmaster cam pin in the PSA bolt and it locks up so tight that I hurt my fingers trying to rotate it back. I'll try to give PSA a call tomorrow.

wct097 ~ I wanted to upgrade the parts that are most likely to fail and have spare parts in case something breaks. From everything I've read, Bushmaster's BCG isn't nearly the quality of other brands (quality of steel and mine wasn't staked, for example). Obviously, in this case it hasn't worked out so well. :-/
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