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Old 05-22-2013, 17:33   #361
fredj338
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
You left out people who work for a living.
If I can ccw a 1911pd in shorts & a polo, then jeans & a polo is pretty easy. If I wanted to wear slacks & a tie, my P239 in a IWB tuckable will conceal fine. So not sure what your comment means. The right gun & holster/belt combo allows you to carry a serious fighting handgun just about anywhere & not have it noticed. So carrying a mousegun is all about convenience, nothing else, because it's not even a good 3rd option for a serious fight IMO.
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Old 05-22-2013, 17:47   #362
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Actually, it's about wearing a uniform, working on heavy equipment in tight places sometimes involving some odd acrobatics. Then throw in a full body harness fall protection and you're pretty limited on what you can carry. But yeah, if you push a pencil for a living, you can make a full size pistol work.
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Old 05-22-2013, 18:07   #363
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Actually, it's about wearing a uniform, working on heavy equipment in tight places sometimes involving some odd acrobatics. Then throw in a full body harness fall protection and you're pretty limited on what you can carry. But yeah, if you push a pencil for a living, you can make a full size pistol work.
My Wife's Kimber Ultra Raptor and the XDs are smaller than many .380s that people carry on the grounds "I can't carry anything bigger".

The smaller 9mms have been around for a while now as well.

Bigger and better rounds have never been easier to carry.
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Old 05-22-2013, 18:35   #364
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My Wife's Kimber Ultra Raptor and the XDs are smaller than many .380s that people carry on the grounds "I can't carry anything bigger".

The smaller 9mms have been around for a while now as well.

Bigger and better rounds have never been easier to carry.
My P938 has taken the place of my G26 as my EDC at work. While it conceals and carries very well, it still doesn't disappear in the pocket like a lightweight ultra flat LCP. Those small .45's are still pretty heavy and bulky for pocket carry. I'm all in agreement about carrying a larger caliber handgun but sometimes circumstances don't allow. I consider myself fortunate. Many people can't carry at all on the job. Once I retire, I'm kinda liking the Colt New Agent in .45acp.
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Old 05-22-2013, 19:32   #365
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
Actually, it's about wearing a uniform, working on heavy equipment in tight places sometimes involving some odd acrobatics. Then throw in a full body harness fall protection and you're pretty limited on what you can carry. But yeah, if you push a pencil for a living, you can make a full size pistol work.
It sure would be nice if manufacturers would make pistols chambered for service cartridges that were smaller than full size.

Then again with what you are describing may be rather difficult depending on where that harness goes...
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Old 05-22-2013, 20:15   #366
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If I can ccw a 1911pd in shorts & a polo, then jeans & a polo is pretty easy. If I wanted to wear slacks & a tie, my P239 in a IWB tuckable will conceal fine. So not sure what your comment means. The right gun & holster/belt combo allows you to carry a serious fighting handgun just about anywhere & not have it noticed. So carrying a mousegun is all about convenience, nothing else, because it's not even a good 3rd option for a serious fight IMO.
I agree with the idea that carrying a more effective caliber is desirable.
However, your belief that since you can do it, everyone can do it is narrow-minded. You are so belligerently narrow-minded about this topic that it makes it hard to take you seriously, imo.
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Old 05-22-2013, 20:29   #367
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I agree with the idea that carrying a more effective caliber is desirable.
However, your belief that since you can do it, everyone can do it is narrow-minded. You are so belligerently narrow-minded about this topic that it makes it hard to take you seriously, imo.
I don't know about ^^^^that attitude.

I thought Fred was being fair when he said,

"Sure if you had to fight w/ a pocket knife, most of us would, but few would choose it if they could use something more effective. IMO, you have yours, but your arguments for the 380 are very weak. Free country, carry what you like, but at least understand the limitations & hopefully you are practicing a lot with it, you'll need it"


Why is it hard to take an honest opinion seriously? Just because you don't agree with it? Because it is an opinion that doesn't waffle?

If he said "there are better ways to drain a swimming pool than using a teaspoon" and he stuck to it, would you call that "belligerent" ?

Given how small guns in more effective calibers have become, and given some of us have experience with them, it seems like sticking to the lesser caliber is "belligerent" and not being open to new things.
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Old 05-22-2013, 20:37   #368
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Old 05-22-2013, 20:41   #369
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I will agree that a 380 doesn't have the terminal ballistics of other higher calibers but if a person wants to make the absolute proclamation that a 380 can not be an effective way to stop a attack... they have watched way too many movies.

many people get personal self defense initiatives confused with the mission of a soldier, policeman or someone providing protective services. As a citizen I do not have a duty to pursue, capture, destroy, or engage a position. I only want to stop an attack long enough for me to escape. If while I use deadly force to stop deadly force, a person happens to survive, that's just fine. If while using deadly force to stop deadly force, the badguy does not survive...well, I knew and accepted that as a possible outcome before I started.

I would not select a 380 to run out and meet a platoon of enemy soldiers but to halt a potentially deadly attack long enough for me to flee the attacker in a dark parking lot.. yes I would use it for that.


note: just last week I watched one of those "snapped" shows on discovery ID [real event not Hollywood]- where a jealous husband confronted his wifes young lover in a pharmacy parking lot. The husband fired 2 shots from a ruger lcp.. the victim fell right were he stood and never got up.
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Old 05-22-2013, 20:53   #370
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I will agree that a 380 doesn't have the terminal ballistics of other higher calibers but if a person wants to make the absolute proclamation that a 380 can not be an effective way to stop a attack... they have watched way too many movies.

many people get personal self defense initiatives confused with the mission of a soldier, policeman or someone providing protective services. As a citizen I do not have a duty to pursue, capture, destroy, or engage a position. I only want to stop an attack long enough for me to escape. If while I use deadly force to stop deadly force, a person happens to survive, that's just fine. If while using deadly force to stop deadly force, the badguy does not survive...well, I knew and accepted that as a possible outcome before I started.

I would not select a 380 to run out and meet a platoon of enemy soldiers but to halt a potentially deadly attack long enough for me to flee the attacker in a dark parking lot.. yes I would use it for that.


note: just last week I watched one of those "snapped" shows on discovery ID where a jealous husband confronted his wifes young lover in a pharmacy parking lot. The husband fired 2 shots from a ruger lcp.. the victim fell right were he stood and never got up.
I am trying to find where anybody made the proclamation that the .380 can not be effective (or a .22 for that matter). I read people as saying there were better choices.

I'll keep rereading and get back to you if I find anything.
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Old 05-22-2013, 22:16   #371
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...I would not select a 380 to run out and meet a platoon of enemy soldiers but to halt a potentially deadly attack long enough for me to flee the attacker in a dark parking lot.. yes I would use it for that.


note: just last week I watched one of those "snapped" shows on discovery ID [real event not Hollywood]- where a jealous husband confronted his wifes young lover in a pharmacy parking lot. The husband fired 2 shots from a ruger lcp.. the victim fell right were he stood and never got up.

it never ceases to amaze me how many people think they can flee any criminal scenario at will as if on a whim.

Rule #1: the criminal will dictate where & how it begins, not you. You'll then be playing catch up and it will be all an unexperienced layman can do to keep their head in the game. Most people have never even seen brute raw violence in person, let alone experienced it. As such, most people tend to freeze as if a deer caught in headlights. You will need every advantage that you can possibly muster to survive & that includes a weapon with fight ending capability. Don Juans shot by cuckolded husbands hardly equals going toe to toe with a Street hardened thug bent on killing you.
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Old 05-22-2013, 22:17   #372
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Old 05-23-2013, 01:24   #373
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I agree with the idea that carrying a more effective caliber is desirable.
However, your belief that since you can do it, everyone can do it is narrow-minded. You are so belligerently narrow-minded about this topic that it makes it hard to take you seriously, imo.
I figured out how to make a 1911 work on a daily basis, but my daily basis is probably different than yours. Even giving you that concession, there are still a ton of micro 9's out there that are very easy to carry. IMHO, the .380 is too much of a compromise in the horsepower category.

I've talked about it before.. I'm 41. In 23 years of gun ownership, I've been in exactly two situations where I was full presentation with a gun ready to shoot someone in self defense. I managed to find a way out of both spots. Both times, however, I felt undergunned. Once was with a .45. Once was with a .357 mag. I still like both rounds, but when that time comes, I'm telling you you'll wish you had a 12 gauge with 1oz slugs.

Handgun cartridges aren't great stoppers, so why settle with the low end of not so great? We're beating a dead horse here. Mayhap we should beat a dead horse in the nuts.

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Old 05-23-2013, 05:21   #374
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it never ceases to amaze me how many people think they can flee any criminal scenario at will as if on a whim.

Rule #1: the criminal will dictate where & how it begins, not you. You'll then be playing catch up and it will be all an unexperienced layman can do to keep their head in the game. Most people have never even seen brute raw violence in person, let alone experienced it. As such, most people tend to freeze as if a deer caught in headlights. You will need every advantage that you can possibly muster to survive & that includes a weapon with fight ending capability. Don Juans shot by cuckolded husbands hardly equals going toe to toe with a Street hardened thug bent on killing you.
Good post. I think the problem for most good citizens is that they can't imagine themselves using ruthless violence on a moment's notice and so they cannot imagine the mind set of typical thugs. When they are faced with it, it is just too much to comprehend as if the devil had sprung into existence before them complete with horns and spiked tail. Their first thought is disbelief. That is followed by panic. After that passage of time it is too late to react effectively.

Apart from that, in this respect there are two kinds of criminal. One is looking for easy money. Getting shot in the process is not part of the expectation. Once that risk becomes imminent, as you show a gun, you won't need to run away because either he will run away or you will be shot in what to him is self defense.

The criminal who is prepared to kill you at the least resistance or actually intends to kill you for what ever you have that he wants is much rarer. There you face the gamble of giving in, in the hope that he does not intend to kill you, or of fighting back instantly, in the hope that you can win. Running away will do no good here because he will just shoot you in the back before you have gone three paces. In this situation there is no time for thought because reaction has to be immediate.

Running away only works against someone who had no intention of shooting you in the first place!

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Old 05-23-2013, 09:04   #375
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it never ceases to amaze me how many people think they can flee any criminal scenario at will as if on a whim.

Rule #1: the criminal will dictate where & how it begins, not you. You'll then be playing catch up and it will be all an unexperienced layman can do to keep their head in the game. Most people have never even seen brute raw violence in person, let alone experienced it. As such, most people tend to freeze as if a deer caught in headlights. You will need every advantage that you can possibly muster to survive & that includes a weapon with fight ending capability. Don Juans shot by cuckolded husbands hardly equals going toe to toe with a Street hardened thug bent on killing you.
In my personal life I have had the occasion to be the target of violence many times in many different places. I have no idea if I can flee or prevail in every criminal scenario but my grit has been tested, I have faced violence, suffered violence and have lawfully used force many times over and have made it this far.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:44   #376
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Actually, it's about wearing a uniform, working on heavy equipment in tight places sometimes involving some odd acrobatics. Then throw in a full body harness fall protection and you're pretty limited on what you can carry. But yeah, if you push a pencil for a living, you can make a full size pistol work.
Maybe, then again, maybe not. A person's build has a lot to do with ccw comfortably. Still, there are micro 9s that will fit in a pants pocket. IF you are being that encombered by clothing & gear, any gun carried in a pocket is a risk IMO, but then it's JMO.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:49   #377
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I agree with the idea that carrying a more effective caliber is desirable.
However, your belief that since you can do it, everyone can do it is narrow-minded. You are so belligerently narrow-minded about this topic that it makes it hard to take you seriously, imo.
Well your opinion, not belligernet at all but then often when someone disagrees with anothers weak point, they become defensive & resort to name calling. Duelly noted. It's just some common sense really, nothing else. Gun owners are not unlike everyone elses & often take easy over difficult when it comes to making decisions. Dropping a 380 in your pocket is easy & that is why most would carry something so lacking.
This isn't from lack of exp, I have owned & carried 380 in the past. That was before compact 9mm were available & not as many holster combos. Today, just no point but for taking the easy way. And yes, I fully undeerstand the rol of defensive pistol, it is to save my life, not to give me ballast when I walk. I have a better chance w/ a compact service caliber than I do w/ a mousegun.
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Old 05-23-2013, 09:58   #378
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I've got several levels of "perceived threat", which influences my carry decisions. As a LEO, I've had to pull my pistol twice off duty to deal with a guy that I have arrested in the past who wanted to fight me. So, I try to carry a gun as much as possible when ever I leave the house.

For my greatest perceived threat, such as plain cloths work, or if I am going to an area where I think I have a higher chance of getting into trouble, I will carry a Sig P229 .40 with one extra magazine, handcuffs, and a flashlight. At times when I am off duty, and am just wandering around town, I will carry a Sig P239 .40 with one extra magazine, and my Iphone doubles as my flashlight. When my perceived threat is at its lowest, or when my clothing makes it more difficult to carry the P239, I will opt for the smaller and lighter P232 .380 which will either go in an ankle holster or other discrete location. I will also have an extra magazine for the P232.

Lord knows I do not like the .380acp. However, in order to get a pistol that is small enough and light enough for other carry options there aren't many viable auto calibers that can get the job done. The .380 cannot use very long bullets, so it has poor penetration ability with JHPs due to a very low sectional density. Combine that with a low operating pressure, and you don't have a lot of options to improve the cartridge.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:05   #379
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Maybe, then again, maybe not. A person's build has a lot to do with ccw comfortably. Still, there are micro 9s that will fit in a pants pocket. IF you are being that encombered by clothing & gear, any gun carried in a pocket is a risk IMO, but then it's JMO.
My P938 is a 9mm. Yes it is a risk. I've regressed back to C3. Another useless argument.
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Old 05-23-2013, 10:09   #380
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Well your opinion, not belligernet at all but then often when spomeone disagrees with anothers weal point, they bnecome defensive & resort to name calling. Duelly noted. It's just some common sense really, nothing else. Gun owners are not unlike everyone elses & often take easy over difficult when it comes to making decisions. Dropping a 380 in your pocket is easy & that is why most would carry something so lacking.
This isn't from lack of exp, I have owned & carried 380 in the past. That was before compact 9mm were available & not as many holstr combos. Today, just no point but for taking the easy way.
My comment was not meant as a personal attack. Re-reading it today, I can see where it can be viewed that way, so my apologies.

What I was trying to say, is that you have clearly figured out a way to carry a full or 'service' pistol in your daily life. You seem to be of the opinion that if that works for you, it should work for anyone. It is not that simple.
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