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Old 05-12-2013, 13:19   #21
Zombie Surgeon
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Originally Posted by Flintlocker View Post
Hmm, who do I trust more? USAF officer, 26 year veteran of the CIA and NSC, Director of the CIA under GHWB and Secretary of Defense under GWB. Or some confused keyboard commandos trying to undermine a President they despise. It's a tough decision...
I trust William G. Boykin, former commander of Delta Force.
He declared in an recent interview that at the time of his command ('92-'94) the US military could have had a jet flying overhead within 2-3 hours and boots on the ground within 4-5 hours after the attack started in Benghazi. That would have saved the lives of at least 2 victims killed in the second attack.
He also mentioned that considering our presence in the region is far greater and the military hardware far better now than it was in the 90's, it is very plausible the time could have been considerable shorter today, possibly 3 hours or less for boots on the ground.
One more point Boykin made: spec opserators are training for years and years to be able to deploy and fight in very dangerous battles in hostile territory where the enemy is greatly outnumbering them. This is their main line of business and this is what they sign for when they apply for the job. Anybody who says "we couldn't send them because it was too dangerous" is one of the following: an idiot; a liar; or somebody who's addicted to sucking Obama. Or all of the above.
Which one are you?

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Old 05-12-2013, 13:25   #22
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Good lord, you can't be this dumb, can you?

So after you start calling out your hallucinations of lies and doing your little victory dance, you're going to try to make it a matter of semantics? Yeah, I guess you're that dumb.

Perhaps you should go read a timeline of events in Benghazi and inform yourself of what happened.

No matter how you try to skirt the issue, a quick reaction force was sent from Tripoli, more than 400 miles away from Benghazi. One of them died at the CIA compound. These are the facts. Just because you didn't, or don't, comprehend them has no bearing on the truth.
Typical liberal, get caught in a contradiction (holding two opposing opinions as both being true) and they start calling names. They claim to understand better how two opposite sets of facts can both be true and everyone else is dumb because they don't think like that.
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Old 05-12-2013, 13:28   #23
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Hmm, who do I trust more? USAF officer, 26 year veteran of the CIA and NSC, Director of the CIA under GHWB and Secretary of Defense under GWB. Or some confused keyboard commandos trying to undermine a President they despise. It's a tough decision...
Given the current state of Iraq and Afghanistan, I'd go commando.
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Old 05-12-2013, 13:30   #24
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Propaganda? Here I go explaining what actually happened in Libya to people that largely seem unconcerned with the truth and it's propaganda... That's rich.

Here's another word for ya. Hypocrites. They're the kind of people that barely batted an eyelash after the President ignores months worth of intelligence warnings, one of which was entitled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" and spend months hyperventilating over Benghazi. Hypocrites.
You forget; that happened a long time ago. Dear Leader's very own mouthpiece said so.
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Old 05-12-2013, 13:31   #25
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Originally Posted by Spymaster Political Issues
You want to ante up a source for this tidbit?

Originally posted by flintlocker:
I guess it's no surprise that this is news to the wingnuts out there. Right wing news and blogs have no interest in the truth... they make their money by winding you up and sending you off on emotional tirades.
"Uhh" you might try breaking the little anti-depressants in half...I asked you to cite a source, your response is quoted for posterity, and its entertainment value, which is considerable...

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Old 05-12-2013, 13:44   #26
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Originally Posted by Zombie Surgeon View Post
I trust William G. Boykin, former commander of Delta Force.
He declared in an recent interview that at the time of his command ('92-'94) the US military could have had a jet flying overhead within 2-3 hours and boots on the ground within 4-5 hours after the attack started in Benghazi. That would have saved the lives of at least 2 victims killed in the second attack.
He also mentioned that considering our presence in the region is far greater and the military hardware far better now than it was in the 90's, it is very plausible the time could have been considerable shorter today, possibly 3 hours or less for boots on the ground.
One more point he made: spec ops people are training for years and years to be able to deploy and fight in very dangerous battles where hostiles are greatly outnumbering them. This is their main purpose of Spec Ops. Anybody who says "we couldn't send them because it was too dangerous" is either an idiot or a liar. Or both.
Boots on the ground in 3 hours? I guess that's a possibility. But that would necessitate parachute insertions into a tiny compound surrounded by hundreds of armed militants. To say that would have definitively saved the 2 CIA operators that died in the second attack is naive.

5 hours? Maybe they could have arrived in force at the airport and forced their way in HUMVEEs, but how many can fit in a C130, only one of which was available in Tripoli. And how many people can you get to the compound, more than 2 miles away, through an armed group of hundreds.

Keep in mind that there were boots on the ground at the airport less than 12 hours later.

Each one of those scenarios presents its' own, new, fog of war. Claiming that any one of them saves more people or endangers more lives is wild speculation at best. If you're looking for a pie in the sky, ideal situation and solution then I guess Boykin is your man.
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Old 05-12-2013, 13:53   #27
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Typical liberal, get caught in a contradiction (holding two opposing opinions as both being true) and they start calling names. They claim to understand better how two opposite sets of facts can both be true and everyone else is dumb because they don't think like that.
And here comes the peanut gallery. Just to make it clear, for you or any other dunderheads that might be confused. The CIA sent in it's own GRS team to protect it's own CIA assets. Gates is saying that the military doesn't have a fast reaction team in the middle east. They do have one in Italy some 700 miles away. Dong thought he was being clever with his shallow semantic comparison and it looks like you jumped on the bandwagon.

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Old 05-12-2013, 13:55   #28
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"Uhh" you might try breaking the little anti-depressants in half...I asked you to cite a source, your response is quoted for posterity, and its entertainment value, which is considerable...
And here I was thinking you could read all on your lonesome. I posted the link one post above my reply to you... a whole inch and a half away. Go take a look, it's right there, honest.
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Old 05-12-2013, 14:44   #29
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http://www.kbzk.com/news/gates-some-...ry-capability/


"Frankly, had I been in the job at the time, I think my decisions would have been just as theirs were," said Gates, now the chancellor of the College of William and Mary.

"We don't have a ready force standing by in the Middle East, and so getting somebody there in a timely way would have been very difficult, if not impossible." he explained.

Suggestions that we could have flown a fighter jet over the attackers to "scare them with the noise or something," Gates said, ignored the "number of surface to air missiles that have disappeared from [former Libyan leader] Qaddafi's arsenals."

"I would not have approved sending an aircraft, a single aircraft, over Benghazi under those circumstances," he said.

Another suggestion posed by some critics of the administration, to, as Gates said, "send some small number of special forces or other troops in without knowing what the environment is, without knowing what the threat is, without having any intelligence in terms of what is actually going on on the ground, would have been very dangerous."


"It's sort of a cartoonish impression of military capabilities and military forces," he said. "The one thing that our forces are noted for is planning and preparation before we send people in harm's way, and there just wasn't time to do that."

If all of this were assumed to be 100% true, it doesn't justify the fact that they lied to the American people about the attack when they claimed it was about a youtube video.
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Old 05-12-2013, 14:51   #30
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All speculation aside as to what was in place at the time and what could then have been done at that time... aside... Gates and others are missing the point completely...

WHY wasn't there a plan in place? Why was the security resources on site so small? Why was the requests PRIOR to the day of the attack taken so lightly? Why did no one take a warning that something might happen on 91 freakin 1 for christ sakes?

Incompetence and Negligence is the only answer.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:16   #31
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If all of this were assumed to be 100% true, it doesn't justify the fact that they lied to the American people about the attack when they claimed it was about a youtube video.
As I'm sure you recall, protests against the US happened around the muslim world on 9/11/2012. You may even recall that Egyptian protesters breached the compound and took down the US flag. The reporting, on that day, tied the video in question to the protests.

Now to the best of my understanding, most of the right wing rage stems from the fact that Susan Rice went on nearly every Sunday morning news program and was still saying that the attack in Benghazi was related to the video. But I think one thing that is overlooked was which day or days her interviews were taped. 9/11/2012 was on a Tuesday. I've seen it reported that she taped on a Thursday but I don't have a link. What I'm sure of is that by Sunday, it was clear that the protests elsewhere were quite different than the attack in Benghazi.

Why did she say that? I don't know. But I think that most rightwingers are conflating blaming the attack on the video as some sort of coverup.

So my question to you is: What do you believe they were conspiring to cover up? Does pinning the reason for the attack change the circumstances or the unpreparedness of the State Department or the CIA to protect its employees? Is it possible that Rice didn't know what happened and just got it wrong?

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Old 05-12-2013, 15:20   #32
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If all of this were assumed to be 100% true, it doesn't justify the fact that they lied to the American people about the attack when they claimed it was about a youtube video.
^^^^^ This. Can anyone explain the YouTube video story?


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Old 05-12-2013, 15:31   #33
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^^^^^ This. Can anyone explain the YouTube video story?


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Nope, it's a complete mystery. No one will ever know why protests around the muslim world to the video "Innocence of Muslims" on 9/11/2012 was initially and mistakenly tied to the attack in Benghazi.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:33   #34
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Boots on the ground in 3 hours? I guess that's a possibility. But that would necessitate parachute insertions into a tiny compound surrounded by hundreds of armed militants. To say that would have definitively saved the 2 CIA operators that died in the second attack is naive.
.
Maybe they could just land at the airport like the team did later that morning.



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Old 05-12-2013, 15:34   #35
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As I'm sure you recall, protests against the US happened around the muslim world on 9/11/2012. You may even recall that Egyptian protesters breached the compound and took down the US flag. The reporting, on that day, tied the video in question to the protests.

Now to the best of my understanding, most of the right wing rage stems from the fact that Susan Rice went on nearly every Sunday morning news program and was still saying that the attack in Benghazi was related to the video. But I think one thing that is overlooked was which day or days her interviews were taped. 9/11/2012 was on a Tuesday. I've seen it reported that she taped on a Thursday but I don't have a link. What I'm sure of is that by Sunday, it was clear that the protests elsewhere were quite different than the attack in Benghazi.

Why did she say that? I don't know. But I think that most rightwingers are conflating blaming the attack on the video as some sort of coverup.

So my question to you is: What do you believe they were conspiring to cover up? Does pinning the reason for the attack change the circumstances or the unpreparedness of the State Department or the CIA to protect its employees? Is it possible that Rice didn't know what happened and just got it wrong?
You didn't even watch one minute of last weeks testimony did you?

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Old 05-12-2013, 15:36   #36
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Nope, it's a complete mystery. No one will ever know why protests around the muslim world to the video "Innocence of Muslims" on 9/11/2012 was initially and mistakenly tied to the attack in Benghazi.
Yes we will know. It is starting to come out now. Dear Leader is starting to lose the MSM. Did you see Gay Carney on Friday. Drip....drip...drip.

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Old 05-12-2013, 15:49   #37
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Well Secretary Gates' comments have been proven by the general comments in this thread.

We have launched QRFs in Afghanistan and folks have still died. All I can say is don't believe everything you see in the movies or on TV.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:53   #38
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Well Secretary Gates' comments have been proven by the general comments in this thread.

We have launched QRFs in Afghanistan and folks have still died. All I can say is don't believe everything you see in the movies or on TV.
And we didn't do anything for these Americans and they died.

I assume that is your point.

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Old 05-12-2013, 16:01   #39
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And here comes the peanut gallery. Just to make it clear, for you or any other dunderheads that might be confused. The CIA sent in it's own GRS team to protect it's own CIA assets. Gates is saying that the military doesn't have a fast reaction team in the middle east. They do have one in Italy some 700 miles away. Dong thought he was being clever with his shallow semantic comparison and it looks like you jumped on the bandwagon.

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Your typical Air Force Base had the capability to put together a 40 man QRF in 4 hours, and that was before the "war on terror". How far away did you say Aviano is?

It wasn't a lack of assets. The guys I knew would have found a way. It was a lack of will.

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Old 05-12-2013, 16:03   #40
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And here comes the peanut gallery. Just to make it clear, for you or any other dunderheads that might be confused. The CIA sent in it's own GRS team to protect it's own CIA assets. Gates is saying that the military doesn't have a fast reaction team in the middle east. They do have one in Italy some 700 miles away. Dong thought he was being clever with his shallow semantic comparison and it looks like you jumped on the bandwagon.




You are choosing to believe one source when there are many out there, just as "expert" , saying that troops were much closer and that we had air assets that could have been employed. You make this choice because it creates something of an excuse for Dear Leader and Hillary DOING NOTHING while Americans died.

A report that was censored and redacted 12 times to remove as much Administration responsibility, and references to Islamic terrorism, and you want to stand by it.

So, was it all over a youtube video like the Administration told you?

The only thing shallow is your attempt to make excuses.
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