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Old 05-12-2013, 16:21   #41
Ruble Noon
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:26   #42
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Typical liberal, get caught in a contradiction (holding two opposing opinions as both being true) and they start calling names. They claim to understand better how two opposite sets of facts can both be true and everyone else is dumb because they don't think like that.
Just so there's a basis here-- what's your experience with this kind of stuff? How often have you had to either a) decide on whether or not to commit forces (regardless of how much info you had) or b) you've been one of the guys committed?

Launching jets out of Italy would have not accomplished a single thing. Launching a ground QRF would not have changed the outcome. An armed drone would have been useless.

You are suggesting that you would have inserted forces knowing there was a good chance there would have been additional US casualties and you wouldn't have changed what already happened just to say that you tried?
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:36   #43
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Department of Defense timeline of events:

http://armedservices.house.gov/index...0-496a75a448da

Article explaining how Lt. Col. Gibson had a 4 man team training Libyans in Tripoli and was planning to board a Libyan cargo plane but "Special Operations Command Africa told them not to go, because “there was nothing this team could do to assist,” Little said, opting to tell the team to stay in Tripoli to assist with consular staff’s evacuation from Benghazi." "According to Little and Lapan, the C-130 the team wanted to fly to Benghazi on had space for the men, but it didn’t arrive in the city until after the battle ended. “There’s no evidence they could have arrived in Benghazi before the end of the attack,” said Lapan, a spokesman for Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013...gazi-pentagon/
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:40   #44
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I have heard no mention of naval assets at all. I'm waiting for that to come out.

I'd also like to know where did the drone come from? Why wasn't to armed? Were armed drones available and ordered to stand down too? If there were armed drones available and they were not used to save American lives, then Obama resignation is assured.
Armed drones out of where? Best case scenario, our agreement with Libya was such that we are allowed to fly armed drones out of bases there. Worst case-- they don't let our drones into their airspace. Funny thing that concept of sovereign nations and law. They get chces too. in any event, drones fly at half the speed of smell (though in the movies the Predator does fly with after burners on). Unless that thing was directly overhead at the time of the incident, it's pointless to discuss it because it would never arrive on station in time.

Then of course you have the issue of, "What's the target?" Drones are great but the cameras aren't that good and if there is a mass of people on the ground, you're SOL.
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:42   #45
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Maj. Robert Firman, a Pentagon spokesman, said Monday, "There was never any kind of stand-down order to anybody."
On Tuesday, Firman said the military is trying to assess the incident Hicks is referring to, but the aircraft in question wound up evacuating a second wave of Americans from Benghazi to Tripoli, not transporting rescuers to a firefight.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20...r_is_true.html
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:43   #46
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Boots on the ground in 3 hours? I guess that's a possibility. But that would necessitate parachute insertions into a tiny compound surrounded by hundreds of armed militants. To say that would have definitively saved the 2 CIA operators that died in the second attack is naive.

5 hours? Maybe they could have arrived in force at the airport and forced their way in HUMVEEs, but how many can fit in a C130, only one of which was available in Tripoli. And how many people can you get to the compound, more than 2 miles away, through an armed group of hundreds.

Keep in mind that there were boots on the ground at the airport less than 12 hours later.

Each one of those scenarios presents its' own, new, fog of war. Claiming that any one of them saves more people or endangers more lives is wild speculation at best. If you're looking for a pie in the sky, ideal situation and solution then I guess Boykin is your man.
Gee, Lintlicker...maybe you should consider applying for Boykin's former job since your expertise in such operations is so vast.
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:47   #47
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Double Tap

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Old 05-12-2013, 16:51   #48
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Originally Posted by ArtyGuy View Post
Armed drones out of where? Best case scenario, our agreement with Libya was such that we are allowed to fly armed drones out of bases there. Worst case-- they don't let our drones into their airspace. Funny thing that concept of sovereign nations and law. They get chces too. in any event, drones fly at half the speed of smell (though in the movies the Predator does fly with after burners on). Unless that thing was directly overhead at the time of the incident, it's pointless to discuss it because it would never arrive on station in time.

Funny how none of that applies to Pakistan...hmmmm.

Then of course you have the issue of, "What's the target?" Drones are great but the cameras aren't that good and if there is a mass of people on the ground, you're SOL.

Actually, the cameras ARE that great. Never mind that we had men on the ground spotting targets for help that never came.
Please explain this "speed of smell". Are talking sea level or at altitude?


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Old 05-12-2013, 16:54   #49
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Originally Posted by Zombie Surgeon View Post
Gee, Lintlicker...maybe you should consider applying for Boykin's former job since your expertise in such operations is so vast.
Maybe you should start making a list of all the people that seem to be orchestrating this huge coverup. I'll get you started: The President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, numerous active duty Generals, Colonels, Lt. Colonels and Majors, Senators, Congressmen, the 'lamestream' media... and I'm sure the list goes on and on. Keep on the story, I'm sure you'll expose the whole thing.
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:55   #50
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Nope, it's a complete mystery. No one will ever know why protests around the muslim world to the video "Innocence of Muslims" on 9/11/2012 was initially and mistakenly tied to the attack in Benghazi.
We're I a gambler I would wager after dear leader bragged world wide how HE killed Osama and shut down the Taliban and ended terror, it would have reflected negatively on him at that point in his campaigning to admit that there was a successful terror attack on US citizens under his watch. It might have swayed a few legitimate voters in November.
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:04   #51
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Originally Posted by Flintlocker View Post
Maj. Robert Firman, a Pentagon spokesman, said Monday, "There was never any kind of stand-down order to anybody."

On Tuesday, Firman said the military is trying to assess the incident Hicks is referring to, but the aircraft in question wound up evacuating a second wave of Americans from Benghazi to Tripoli, not transporting rescuers to a firefight.http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20...r_is_true.html
Pentagon spokesman who was sleeping in his bed in Virginia versus a twenty year veteran of the State Department who was on scene with the commander in question.

Hmmmm....who am I going to believe?

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Last edited by happyguy; 05-12-2013 at 17:05..
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:32   #52
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So exactly what assets were available, people and arms that night? What transportation was available to get them from where they were to Benghazi? What time could they have assembled, geared up, and arrived in Benghazi that night?

Where is the Foreign Emergency Support Team based, what's their response time? What are their capabilities? They only mention "short notice" on their website. Is that measured in hours or days? What have they participated in previously?

Randy
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:39   #53
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Pentagon spokesman who was sleeping in his bed in Virginia versus a twenty year veteran of the State Department who was on scene with the commander in question.

Hmmmm....who am I going to believe?

Regards,
Happyguy
I see, I guess we can add the Pentagon to the grand conspiracy.

If only the LTC and his team of 4 trainers, described as "not kitted for battle", had jumped on a Libyan cargo plane, flown hundreds of miles to Benghazi, strolled in to the CIA station being attacked by 100's of militants with RPG's, mortars, and small arms fire in the middle of the night, all of this would have been averted.

Or maybe SOCAFRICA had a good reason to say no.

Last edited by Flintlocker; 05-12-2013 at 17:43..
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:41   #54
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Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
So exactly what assets were available, people and arms that night? What transportation was available to get them from where they were to Benghazi? What time could they have assembled, geared up, and arrived in Benghazi that night?

Where is the Foreign Emergency Support Team based, what's their response time? What are their capabilities? They only mention "short notice" on their website. Is that measured in hours or days? What have they participated in previously?

Randy
A good place to start is to read the DOD timeline I posted above.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:01   #55
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Why did she say that? I don't know. But I think that most rightwingers are conflating blaming the attack on the video as some sort of coverup.
They said it because an election was coming up and they didn't want a recent terrorist attack over their heads. I'm sure the fact that this administration hasn't exactly been forthcoming in admitting radical islam is at war with us also played into the equation.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:02   #56
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A good place to start is to read the DOD timeline I posted above.
That goes to what they did. Not what else could have been done.

Randy
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:12   #57
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Please explain this "speed of smell". Are talking sea level or at altitude?


Regards,
Happyguy
Pakistan has an agreement with us, which allows us to fly drones out of their country armed and allows us to fire those into their own country. Not every country allows that. I don't know what Libya has for an agreement, if they have one at all. I'll tell you this, it gets confusing. You can do "a, b, and c" in one country but another country says you can only do "a" as long as it applies to countries "g, h, and i". That's the reality of it. These nations are sovereign. They get to dictate what we can and can't do. Hell, some of our strongest allies wouldn't dream of letting us fly armed drones around their country so we shouldn't be shocked when not so strong allies don't let us.

And the cameras aren't that great. I have a lot of experience with them. They are great in the movies and on TV but you can rarely tell the entire story with just a camera shot. And when you zoom in, you lose SA on everything else.

This stuff is easy to Monday morning quarterback but it's a lot more difficult when it's real and there are consequences to decisions and if someone doesn't have a clue as to what's going on, they aren't about sling missiles into crowds of people.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:15   #58
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Maybe you should start making a list of all the people that seem to be orchestrating this huge coverup. I'll get you started: The President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, numerous active duty Generals, Colonels, Lt. Colonels and Majors, Senators, Congressmen, the 'lamestream' media... and I'm sure the list goes on and on. Keep on the story, I'm sure you'll expose the whole thing.
You really must love how Obama tastes. Sucking him like a junkie sucks a crack pipe.

Posted from my free Obamaphone
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:16   #59
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That goes to what they did. Not what else could have been done.

Randy
Oh yeah, let me link you to the website where you can find out all about the materiel deployment, force readiness and secret capabilities of the US Military... be right back...
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:16   #60
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I see, I guess we can add the Pentagon to the grand conspiracy.

If only the LTC and his team of 4 trainers, described as "not kitted for battle", had jumped on a Libyan cargo plane, flown hundreds of miles to Benghazi, strolled in to the CIA station being attacked by 100's of militants with RPG's, mortars, and small arms fire in the middle of the night, all of this would have been averted.

Or maybe SOCAFRICA had a good reason to say no.
Exactly. Any commander would know that he was setting his 4 men up for failure. There's no plan to medevac them, resupply them, communicate with them, and the list goes on. A commander would have sent 4 more Soldiers to their graves.
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