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Old 05-15-2013, 20:39   #126
Fred Hansen
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There is a problem with you narrative as it relates to this story.

Everyone in the white House is denying ever discussing the possibility. And if we didn't have the ability to back them up (and I think you are wrong) then why were they denied additional security in the first place? Oh , wait, Hillary is claiming she never got the memo.

So the story thus far is that the WH knew so little about the situation that they didn't know additional security had been requested. The WH also was so ignorant as to think that the whole thing was just a spontaneous demonstration over a video, BUT this WH WAS so well informed they knew that there was nothing they could do for those Americans screaming for help.

Basically your argument for the situation happening was because the White House was ignorant and your excuse for no rescue attempt was because the White House was so well informed,. They didn't have enough information to prevent it or judge the events but they had enough information to justify not doing a ^*&ed thing.

I smell the overwhelming odor of mendacity.
Precisely.

Had this event occurred in a vacuum, with no history of relentlessly escalating attacks, with no obvious high propaganda value date of 9/11 looming, and in the absence of at least two of the most comprehensively trained warriors on planet Earth--complete with at least one laser designator painting the enemies position(s)--there might be something about this story that was believable. As it stands, a couple of fast moving NATO aircraft armed with Hellfires could have made a difference.

For weeks after this travesty occurred, Comrade Zero and his fellow travelers wanted us all to know that they were convinced that the attack on 9/11/2012 was merely the result of a few peaceful Muslims driven into a frenzy by an evil American film maker. So much so, that they rounded up the scapegoat film maker, and put him in prison; where AFAIK he remains to this day. But now Comrade Zero's apologists shout from the mountain tops that the attack was performed by an invincible enemy, against which there was no hope of success.

It seems to me that the people with the "cartoonish view" reside in our nation's capital. They seem to have placed all their faith in the liberal pig media's ability to jam everything down the memory hole: good little piggies they may be, but they are certainly no Winston Smiths. Perhaps Mr. Gate's time would be better spent telling Comrade Zero that Commander-in-Chief is part of the president's job description.
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:47   #127
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Hellfire missiles are not hung on fast moving planes (jets). Pick a new weapon system.
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:57   #128
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So you've gone from Hotshots to Carter in two responses? Classic.

I'm pretty sure you didn't answer the question I asked previously. What experience do you have with military operations, reporting, and commanding troops? If you're going to freq hop with responses, I'd rather go lick razor blades because even that is more productive than discussing this with someone who injects random thoughts.
Sorry if you can't keep up, but I imagine it's troubling what with trying to believe both Administration lies at the same time.
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Old 05-15-2013, 21:09   #129
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Hellfire missiles are not hung on fast moving planes (jets). Pick a new weapon system.
AGM-65 ok?
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Old 05-15-2013, 22:57   #130
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AGM-65 ok?
JDAM, JSOW, maybe?
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Old 05-15-2013, 23:16   #131
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JDAM, JSOW, maybe?
I'm thinking that something is generally better than nothing.

There was certainly no shortage of weapons or planes when they needed Qaddafi removed.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:28   #132
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Ok, sure hang a GBU-31 on it. But let me ask, how do you expect them to identify the target from 20,000 AGL without receiving authorization from a ground commander, since this wouldn't be a pre planned target on the ATO? But let's forget how the USAF does business for a second and pretend the pilot flying the plane decides they want to end their career- how do you expect the pilot to positively identify the target so they can program the coordinates? They're going to target tracer fire? Even if they have no idea who the tracer fire is coming from? Nobody is on the ground talking to them. For all they know, they are watching friendly forces.

You're all proving former Secretary Gates comment that people have a cartoonish view of the military and how things are done.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:35   #133
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Sorry if you can't keep up, but I imagine it's troubling what with trying to believe both Administration lies at the same time.
If it helps, I never voted for the President. This has nothing to do with believing a story. It has everything to do with dealing with dangerous situations and knowing how difficult it is to ascertain information at the onset of a crisis. From a military perspective, initial reports are always wrong. So from several countries away, AFRICOM didn't have a clear picture at all. Commanders don't rush people to their death based upon incomplete information and not having the force structure present to ensure success.

Can answer my question? A simple yes or no is all that's needed. I'm sorry if it was too hard a question for you to keep up with.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:50   #134
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There were four men in Tripoli who were ready and willing to help but they were told to stand down. They could have made the difference.

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Old 05-16-2013, 05:29   #135
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There were four men in Tripoli who were ready and willing to help but they were told to stand down. They could have made the difference.

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Thought I read the plane they tried to get on landed after it was all over.

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Old 05-16-2013, 05:58   #136
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There were four men in Tripoli who were ready and willing to help but they were told to stand down. They could have made the difference.

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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:55   #137
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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
Since they weren't given the opportunity to try, we will never know if they would have succeeded or failed.

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The price to save Hambleton was astounding: 11 rescue forces were killed, six of them within his sight. Two more became POWs. 5 aircraft were shot down and others badly damaged. Scores of allied South Vietnamese forces died in related combat actions.

Hambleton, who died in 2004, assessed their sacrifices thusly: "I had to stand by and watch six young men die trying to save my life. It was a hell of a price to pay for one life. I'm very sorry"

From a cost-benefits analysis what Vogt did could be considered reckless. Vogt's own response was "I had to decide whether we should risk the loss of maybe a dozen airplanes and crews just to get one man out. Finally I said to myself, ******* it, the one thing that keeps our boys motivated is the certain belief that if they go down, we will do absolutely everything we can to get them out. If that is ever in doubt, morale would tumble. That was my major consideration. So I took it on myself. I didn't ask anybody for permission. I just said, "Go do it!".......

.....But, alas, there was no John Vogt. There was only a rogues' gallery of political survivalists and timid generals who were not going to risk careers "just to save one guy".

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/...e_one_guy.html
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

And then there are all the lies from an administration that was caught flat footed and was determined to keep their narrative from imploding just before the election.


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Happyguy
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:16   #138
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I'm sorry but 4 Soldiers were not going to change the outcome. They also had a great chance of dying. Remember, the contractors were former SEALs-- who on their worst day are still 100x more effective than a terrorist on his best day. But there comes a time when overwhelming odds against you negate your training. One only needs to look at two heroes from Somalia who were eventually awarded the MoH, who were killed protecting a downed aviator. Now in that situation, they had 160th SOAR assets, additional members of SOD-D (Delta) and a Ranger Company. That is a LOT of firepower. It couldn't save MSG Gordon and SFC Shugart-- two of the best trained Soldiers in the world.

In Somalia also had an airborne C2 aircraft and guess what? Even they didn't have a clear picture of what was going on. Why on earth would you think a Combatant Command JOC in Germany magically had some perfect idea of what was happening? It's ludicrous to think they could/did.
Well, you definitely seem to have some sources that neither Obama, nor the media has. You need to tell them that they tried to cover this all up for nothing.

And, yes, I have operated jointly with special operations military units. Nothing exactly like this, though, I will admit. What I have seen, though, and it's not just with the military, but with my former agency as well, when it comes to personnel in trouble, is that you don't sit and make political calculations when deciding when it is time to go in. And, like you referenced with Shugart and Gordon, you don't look for perfect odds before you go in, something I've seen emphasized over and over again in our training, and in actual practice, for that type scenario. The important thing is, that you make that contract with people you send in harm's way, that you will try.

I admit I know nothing about you, or your experiences, or where you were assigned, and your history and training may very well have been different.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:33   #139
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AF Security personnel are not prepared to deal with those types of situations in the least. You'd be sending them to their deaths if you thought they could C2 themselves in that environment. They are great Americans but that's not what they do. They are not equipped nor are they trained in the necessary tactical skills to deal with a problem that complex.
You have stated over and over that we didn't have a grasp of what was going on on the ground.

Then you relegate these men and women, from another branch, to failure.

Interesting...

As to tactical skills, you might be surprised.

"Can't" is the easiest response there is.

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Old 05-16-2013, 07:36   #140
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Thought I read the plane they tried to get on landed after it was all over.

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My understanding is that plane could have been launched much earlier but was deliberately delayed.

Could be wrong about that though, it's not like the administration has been a beacon of clarity and openness.

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Old 05-16-2013, 07:50   #141
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I wouldn't be surprised at their skills. I've been assigned to an AFB and I've seen them on a deployment. They remain inside the wire because of the tasks they perform. They aren't trained to handle those types of tactical problems. They'd be set up for failure if they were committed to such an engagement.


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Old 05-16-2013, 07:56   #142
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They remain inside the wire because of the tasks they perform. .


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That is correct but that is not the extent of their training.

Training for operations outside "the wire" is less than a typical Army unit but early on in Vietnam the USAF learned well that they can't depend on the Army to interdict enemy forces outside "the wire".

But apparently four operators were not enough. Neither would four operators backed by 40 USAF Security Forces be enough.

What exactly would have been enough?

Do you have "special" knowledge of the situation on the ground at the time?

Seriously, when will you stop saying can't? What will it take?

On top of that, we are assuming no regular Army units were available.

There were C130's in Ramstein there are C17 assets available. Bet they would have been happy to give the Army a lift.

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:03   #143
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Series1811-

There's a difference between a QRF launching in Afghanistan and having to respond to an incident where very little is known.

In Somalia, we deliberately conducted a raid and as such, had the proper forces and C2 structure in place and when that started going awry, confusion set in. Now imagine a JOC miles and miles and miles away getting notification that something is going on on their AOR. They'd have a hell of a time figuring out what was happening. Hell, as an S3 in combat, it was difficult to know what was going on once a platoon came into contact-- we were two levels of command removed. Why is it hard? Firefights are very confusing. People reporting are trying to make sense of what they are dealing with and even they change their information from one radio transmission to their next transmission. It's the reality of it and why we've coined the phrase "Fog of War".

For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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Old 05-16-2013, 08:08   #144
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Because a unit did something in Vietnam means they are still proficient? Things change over 40 years.

I've already said it. Unfortunately, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent their deaths once the rifle range opened. What failed to the left of that line is what I'd be more concerned about.


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Old 05-16-2013, 08:10   #145
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Series1811-

There's a difference between a QRF launching in Afghanistan and having to respond to an incident where very little is known.

In Somalia, we deliberately conducted a raid and as such, had the proper forces and C2 structure in place and when that started going awry, confusion set in. Now imagine a JOC miles and miles and miles away getting notification that something is going on on their AOR. They'd have a hell of a time figuring out what was happening. Hell, as an S3 in combat, it was difficult to know what was going on once a platoon came into contact-- we were two levels of command removed. Why is it hard? Firefights are very confusing. People reporting are trying to make sense of what they are dealing with and even they change their information from one radio transmission to their next transmission. It's the reality of it and why we've coined the phrase "Fog of War".

For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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You know, I've talked to several guys (Kyle Lamb, Mike Durant, Danny McNight), plus numerous of the 75th guys when I was at Benning training with them in 1994), that were in Somalia, and part of that operation (and worked in the same office with two of them for several years, a SF Sgt. attached to Garrison's staff, and a soldier in the 10th who was on the rescue convoy), and I haven't met a one of them who thinks that operation went horribly wrong, or that they even lost the fight. I sure haven't met one who thought what they did was futile or stupid, or not the correct response to fellow Americans in trouble (in fact the soldier who was on the rescue convoy with the 10th told me he was never as scared in his whole life as when he found out they were going into the battle, but he was more afraid he wouldn't be picked to go).
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:23   #146
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For the record, this whole thing has been handled horribly. But it doesn't negate the fact that the combatant command HQs was seriously challenged making sense of it and therefore it's incredibly difficult to make sound decisions or recommendations. Now add the complexity of trying to coordinate a response with incomplete info. Hence, Sec Gates' comment.


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I guess there is a different breed of man in charge now.

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:28   #147
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Because a unit did something in Vietnam means they are still proficient? Things change over 40 years.

I've already said it. Unfortunately, there was nothing that could have been done to prevent their deaths once the rifle range opened. What failed to the left of that line is what I'd be more concerned about.


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If they've forgotten those lessons, relearning them will be expensive.

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Old 05-16-2013, 09:01   #148
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My next door neighbor at Campbell was a PSG in the Ranger Company (Steele was the commander). He freely admitted things went horribly wrong and that they became complacent. Every raid had been quick. That's why they didn't have batteries for NVGs, little to no water, and not enough ammo. There are plenty of AARs that objectively point it out.

Now when it came time to fight, they did what they do best.


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Old 05-16-2013, 09:05   #149
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By the way, I'm not trying to bash the valiant actions those guys took. I'm using it as an example of how even with many of the C2 systems in place and the flash to bang for leadership to make a decision was incredibly short, combat situations become incredibly difficult
and confusing even for our very best trained forces. Now imagine a Combatant Commander who receives
An "Oh *****" call out of nowhere.


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Old 05-16-2013, 09:46   #150
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Ok, sure hang a GBU-31 on it. But let me ask, how do you expect them to identify the target from 20,000 AGL without receiving authorization from a ground commander, since this wouldn't be a pre planned target on the ATO? But let's forget how the USAF does business for a second and pretend the pilot flying the plane decides they want to end their career- how do you expect the pilot to positively identify the target so they can program the coordinates? They're going to target tracer fire? Even if they have no idea who the tracer fire is coming from? Nobody is on the ground talking to them. For all they know, they are watching friendly forces.

You're all proving former Secretary Gates comment that people have a cartoonish view of the military and how things are done.
You seem to forget which bull**** Comrade Zero version of the story you are trying to defend.

Comrade Zero didn't even bother to email the peaceful Muslims a picture of his No-Bell Pryze. If he had, perhaps they would have realized they can't attack us anymore since his No-Bell Pryze was awarded for all the peace he brought to the world.
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