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Old 06-04-2013, 17:53   #26
dougader
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I think you've made a wise choice.
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Old 06-04-2013, 17:54   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra9 View Post
I posted the following back in March in a thread entitled, "KKM Barrel:"

"Underwood has been praised for manufacturing max loads. Two experiences I have had make me wonder if they are pushing the envelope too far:

"1. Glock 29 firing Underwood ammo, don't remember which of their 10mm loads>most every case of 20 had a smiley, most with split case. Stopped shooting it when the locking block broke.

"2. Kimber 9mm>mechanical failure of yet undetermined nature. The safety latch fell out and the slide won't rack back. Will be off to Kimber to see what broke. This happened while firing their 124gr +P HP. Of course I have no proof in this case that it was the ammo, but in the first example it had to be.

"This thread showing me that others have had over pressure ammo from Underwood brought back my experiences. It's been said that Double Tap doesn't load their 10mm as big as in the past. Maybe they learned a lesson that Underwood will learn."

Now that I've had my third bad experience shooting this stuff, I'm convinced that all three experiences are due to these loads being too heavy. A follow-up on the Kimber: they replaced the sear, thumb safety mechanism, and extractor.

I'm personally not going to buy anymore and subject my pistols and myself to more possible damage.
Your experiences may differ.
I'm starting to feel the same way about this underwood stuff. I've bought maybe 300 rds total between 357sig, 9mm, and 10mm. Some HP and some FMJ and while I've not had quite as bad of luck as you I'm done buying this stuff cause its just to close to the tipping point for me. I like underwoods service and pricing but I kinda wish they would turn it down just a notch.

It would be great if they would load like:
180gr 10mm at 1200fps
125gr 357sig at 1400fps

Maybe if supply increases they will have more offerings in the future, kinda like that delta elite load they have in 10mm. Double tap seems to hover a little closer to the safe zone but their prices are just horrific.

At first the novelty of max loads was intriguing to me, but not anymore and especially at the price of my precious glocks or my health.
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Old 06-04-2013, 18:25   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra9 View Post
I posted the following back in March in a thread entitled, "KKM Barrel:"

"Underwood has been praised for manufacturing max loads. Two experiences I have had make me wonder if they are pushing the envelope too far:

"1. Glock 29 firing Underwood ammo, don't remember which of their 10mm loads>most every case of 20 had a smiley, most with split case. Stopped shooting it when the locking block broke.

"2. Kimber 9mm>mechanical failure of yet undetermined nature. The safety latch fell out and the slide won't rack back. Will be off to Kimber to see what broke. This happened while firing their 124gr +P HP. Of course I have no proof in this case that it was the ammo, but in the first example it had to be.

"This thread showing me that others have had over pressure ammo from Underwood brought back my experiences. It's been said that Double Tap doesn't load their 10mm as big as in the past. Maybe they learned a lesson that Underwood will learn."

Now that I've had my third bad experience shooting this stuff, I'm convinced that all three experiences are due to these loads being too heavy. A follow-up on the Kimber: they replaced the sear, thumb safety mechanism, and extractor.

I'm personally not going to buy anymore and subject my pistols and myself to more possible damage.
Your experiences may differ.
Ok all of those things are indicating over pressure loads. If they are NOT pressure testing, then they are guessing. I can guess for a lot less $$. Smiley faced 10mm is probably over pressures. Cracking anything in the gun is certainly an indication something is wrong.
I admire guys willing to provide a product. I used to load commercial too, but I didn't pressure test. My stuff was 95% CAS loads back in the day, no pressure issues there. They need to be looking really hard at your problem & evaluating their product & QC. Anyone can cobble ammo together. Trying to make high vel/high pressures stuff really requires pressure testing at every level.
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Old 06-04-2013, 18:42   #29
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I've shot probably 300 rounds of UW from the 135gr to the 200gr without any issues. I even check/save my brass and it all looks good. I have a Gen 2 G20 with a LW barrel and a 22# spring/stainless rod. Also a Gen 3.5 G29SF....both fine but I will be keeping an eye out closely.

Not to derail but I've shot a bunch of .357 Sig through my G31 and G33...also no issues.
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Old 06-04-2013, 18:52   #30
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It's a Starline issue. Another 10mm owner experienced split cases with his Nickel plated Starline brass with reduced loads.
Kevin will swap you out for regular brass rounds if you aren't satisfied.
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Old 06-04-2013, 19:14   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intecooler View Post
It's a Starline issue. Another 10mm owner experienced split cases with his Nickel plated Starline brass with reduced loads.
Kevin will swap you out for regular brass rounds if you aren't satisfied.
How do you know it's Starline? The cases are head stamped "Underwood." Starline has always in my experience been great brass for reloading. It's not generally brittle.
The cases may be at fault when it comes to splitting rather than expanding, but how do you explain the flattened primers and, in previous loads, smileys? These are signs of over pressure.
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Old 06-04-2013, 19:38   #32
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Because I talked to Kevin directly and asked him. I didn't really need to though because I have dealt with Kevin since inception and he has never used ANYTHING but Starline.

I can't speak to your flattened primers. I would have to see them close up but in my own firearms I haven't gotten any. Then again I have never shot any of that Nickel plated brass the issues is coming from. Hard to tell if the two are related.
If I felt, or going forward ever felt uneasy, I would just phone him up and ask him to replace it, etc... He's easy to talk with and wants his customers happy.
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Old 06-04-2013, 20:46   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra9 View Post
How do you know it's Starline? The cases are head stamped "Underwood." Starline has always in my experience been great brass for reloading. It's not generally brittle.
The cases may be at fault when it comes to splitting rather than expanding, but how do you explain the flattened primers and, in previous loads, smileys? These are signs of over pressure.
If you order enough brass Starline will put whatever you want on the rim. They make brass for several other companies and put that companys name on it.

For the most part Starline is some of the best brass out there.

Quote:
"This thread showing me that others have had over pressure ammo from Underwood brought back my experiences. It's been said that Double Tap doesn't load their 10mm as big as in the past. Maybe they learned a lesson that Underwood will learn."
Yep. You learn eventually that the issues and increased liability is not worth it.

Too many variables in guns, temps and etc to be running the ragged edge.

Last edited by dkf; 06-04-2013 at 20:57..
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Old 06-04-2013, 22:43   #34
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I have a box and a half from the same time frame when he posted the 200 XTP's on the website. I had one split and shear about a third of the way down from the bullet end and one split length wise. I was shooting through the chronograph and I got an average of 1264 fps stock glock and barrel with 22# ISMI recoil spring and SS guide rod. I have 45 of the other box left. Discussions on other forums have led to a belief it may be more of a brass issue from starline although very hot loads certainly do not help. Another member had new brass he bought from starline and had a split case not loading near as hot as Underwood. I do not know of a lot number on any Underwood ammo. It was discussed if you are uncomfortable contact Underwood and they will exchange it. If I can figure out how to post pictures of my brass I will.

Last edited by doverpack12; 06-04-2013 at 22:44..
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Old 06-04-2013, 23:41   #35
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IF they are NOT tracking their production thru lot #s, really hard to track down where the problem is coming from.
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:34   #36
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I do believe Kevin on had the one run of Nickel brass during the shortage. This narrows it down to only that lot/run and he has been doing standard brass recently.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:06   #37
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Wise decision, UW has waaaaay to many issues.

Sean


Now that I've had my third bad experience shooting this stuff, I'm convinced that all three experiences are due to these loads being too heavy. A follow-up on the Kimber: they replaced the sear, thumb safety mechanism, and extractor.

I'm personally not going to buy anymore and subject my pistols and myself to more possible damage.
Your experiences may differ.[/QUOTE]
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:36   #38
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I received the following from Underwood. It does show excellent customer relations, but I'm still concerned about signs of over pressure:

"That was our very first run/batch with nickel and we have had a few
customers have split cases. I deeply apologize for your hassle. Tomorrow,
I'll send you out replacement ammunition and a call tag to send the rest of
what you have back to us. Again, I'm sorry for the inconvenience.
Thanks much, Kevin"
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:58   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDGlock23 View Post
I've pulled Underwoods ammo before and they have no issue going well over book max and selling it to the public. They used to use 800x and maybe they still do, but recently I've seen where Underwood and Buffalo Bore are using Power Pistol charges that are 13-15% over book.

What most pass off as full power or "real" 10mm loads are more often than not overpressure as well.
Yep. No free lunch, but there will continue to be people thinking 10mm is something it isn't and paying a premium to get there... either on the front end with boutique ammo costs, or the back end with broken guns.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:05   #40
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One of the things that would cause me concern if I was using their ammo is this paragraph that I found on their "About Us" page:

Quote:
Underwood Ammunition strives to provide you with the finest precision ammo available. We produce our ammunition with the utmost care and pride to deliver a product you can be confident in. Whether you use our ammo for hunting, target practice or personal/home defense, you can be certain that Underwood Ammunition is both reliable and affordable. This high performance ammunition is field tested using popular, real firearms that our customers are most likely to own out in the real world with all the elements you would experience - no test barrels and no special test facilities. If for some reason Underwood Ammunition fails to meet performance expectations, we stand by our product 100% and will make sure the customer is satisfied with every purchase.
Underwood's claim that they don't rely on "special test facilities" seems to suggest that they are probably not confirming that their loads conform to SAAMI pressure standards and if their "claim to fame" is ammunition loaded to maximum power the choice to eschew may prove to be problematic in the end.

I like 'hot' ammo just as much as anyone else, but I've also grown attached to my fingers and like them right where they are.
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Old 06-05-2013, 14:54   #41
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So he is replacing all the ammunition you purchased on MAY 1st? How many boxes did you buy and how much did you shoot? When you can post the pictures? I purchased the same ammunition (May 9th) and I have NOT received a phone call. The box was too small for the 1 box of ammunition and as a result the box was damaged and the plastic ammo holder was broken; the packing material was current news paper advertisements. The ammunition looked undamaged but with your current issues and past issues...? Since he knows he has a bad lot of ammunition why is he NOT calling his customers (recall)? Why does he need the ammunition back as there is no recall? I am lucky as this was my canary purchase for underwood and this load.
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Old 06-05-2013, 16:09   #42
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So he is replacing all the ammunition you purchased on MAY 1st? How many boxes did you buy and how much did you shoot? When you can post the pictures? I purchased the same ammunition (May 9th) and I have NOT received a phone call. The box was too small for the 1 box of ammunition and as a result the box was damaged and the plastic ammo holder was broken; the packing material was current news paper advertisements. The ammunition looked undamaged but with your current issues and past issues...? Since he knows he has a bad lot of ammunition why is he NOT calling his customers (recall)? Why does he need the ammunition back as there is no recall? I am lucky as this was my canary purchase for underwood and this load.
I bought three boxes. He knows I shot two of them and had problems with both. I think he is replacing those two and sending for a return of the third. In your case I would suggest calling him to see what he'll do for you. He appears to be quite upstanding and will likely do what you want.
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Old 06-05-2013, 17:51   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M 7 View Post
One of the things that would cause me concern if I was using their ammo is this paragraph that I found on their "About Us" page:



Underwood's claim that they don't rely on "special test facilities" seems to suggest that they are probably not confirming that their loads conform to SAAMI pressure standards and if their "claim to fame" is ammunition loaded to maximum power the choice to eschew may prove to be problematic in the end.

I like 'hot' ammo just as much as anyone else, but I've also grown attached to my fingers and like them right where they are.
Well you could send ammo to a test facility for pressure testing. It's what I would do if I did not want to buy expensive testing gear. Even a Pressure Trace system would give you a really close idea as to what you are cooking up. You can't run it on a semiauto, but one could have custom bbls made for a TC in the proper bbl length. IT's how I would go today if starting an ammo company up to produce things like +P ammo.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:45   #44
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It's unfortunate this lot of Nickel brass has issues and it's Underwood's Ammo. Their are other options like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon and PBR Ammo unless you want to use one of the big MFG's like Winchester. I don't blame any of you who don't want to shoot Underwood as it isn't for everyone. Current situation:

- PBR Ammo hasn't received brass in a long while, so no stock or expected date.
- Double Tap must be running into supply issues. Their Facebook page has posts of irate customers waiting on orders.
- Buffalo Bore seems to at least be loading ammo. I recently purchased 180's which had a Sierra bullet with Remington brass. They have been using whatever bullet they can get so it could be Winchester, Sierra, Montana Gold, Remington...
- Cor-Bon seems to have stock of most their ammo and I do believe they make their own bullets.

Outside of those you step down decently in performance at the next level plus bullet choices.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:52   #45
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I forgot one. Reed's Ammo makes some strong 10mm ammo but don't know their current status. In the past I had three different orders and cancelled them all due to the wait. If you go that route I would phone them up to see what they have in immediate stock or you could be disappointed with ordering on-line.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:28   #46
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I've shot a lot of DT nickel plated ammo without ever having a problem with splits. I once had a box of DT 10mm that was overpressure and got smileys, not splits. My point is whether more than one case manufacturer exists for nickel plated cases, or is it all Starline and they just happened to supply Underwood with some faulty cases.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:10   #47
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Well you could send ammo to a test facility for pressure testing. It's what I would do if I did not want to buy expensive testing gear. Even a Pressure Trace system would give you a really close idea as to what you are cooking up. You can't run it on a semiauto, but one could have custom bbls made for a TC in the proper bbl length. IT's how I would go today if starting an ammo company up to produce things like +P ammo.
I sure hope that Underwood is at least going that far. From the language on their 'site, I get a distinctly different sense that such is not the case. For their sake, I hope that I am wrong.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:19   #48
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I don't know if this is Underwood or Starline's fault, but this is why I'm not buying a single round/mag/gun for a great while.

Demand goes up, production goes up, quality goes down.

Buyer beware.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:52   #49
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Originally Posted by captaintrips View Post
I don't know if this is Underwood or Starline's fault, but this is why I'm not buying a single round/mag/gun for a great while.

Demand goes up, production goes up, quality goes down.

Buyer beware.
Ultimately it IS Underwood's fault, their name is on the brass. You gun goes KB, you are not trying to sue Starline, might not even be their brass, but I doubt it, you are going after Underwood. No, Underwood is making & selling it, they are liable. Why they should be pressure testing & lot marking ALL their ammo. The ethical thing to do is recall all the ammo that they made using that brass, but w/o lot #s, hard to track manuf dates.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:58   #50
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His company name on the box, on the brass and whom sold it. So Underwood would take the brunt of the liability. Then he could go after the brass company for compensation. May not be fair because the brass was the issue but it is the way I would see it panning out. Though brass failure is even more likely with max loads.

A code on the box would be good. If it is not maybe that is something he will look at at. Honestly I wish the actual manufactur date would be printed on every box of ammo.

Last edited by dkf; 06-06-2013 at 13:00..
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