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Old 06-06-2013, 13:30   #51
fredj338
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Originally Posted by dkf View Post
His company name on the box, on the brass and whom sold it. So Underwood would take the brunt of the liability. Then he could go after the brass company for compensation. May not be fair because the brass was the issue but it is the way I would see it panning out. Though brass failure is even more likely with max loads.

A code on the box would be good. If it is not maybe that is something he will look at at. Honestly I wish the actual manufactur date would be printed on every box of ammo.
This is another aspect of the company reloading the ammo. If you are subcontracting the brass, YOU BETTER know it works. That means test batches of each new order of brass. They should be pulling random samples every few 1000 to check for consistency. That would have exposed suspect brass sooner than later & they would not have unhappy customers. There is a lot more to making ammo than filling machine with components & pulling the handle. Let's hope they clean this up, the more small companies making ammo the better, but they have to do it right.
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Old 06-06-2013, 18:05   #52
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Let's hope they clean this up, the more small companies making ammo the better, but they have to do it right.
Underwood does fill a niche in providing affordable ammo, but IMO they are pushing the envelope too far on the pressures, at least on some of their product. But there are shooters who want to push the envelope. Fine, for me I will reload to 10mm potential if I want shock and awe and know I'm not going to hurt myself or damage more guns.
DT (even if not as advertised) and Buffalo Bore make good stuff, but it's way too expensive.
Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip and Hornady are good but too expensive to shoot a lot of.
Underwood, IMO, would be great at their price range if they would back off a little on pressures. Again, YMMD.
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Old 06-06-2013, 21:33   #53
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Underwood does fill a niche in providing affordable ammo, but IMO they are pushing the envelope too far on the pressures, at least on some of their product. But there are shooters who want to push the envelope. Fine, for me I will reload to 10mm potential if I want shock and awe and know I'm not going to hurt myself or damage more guns.
It does seem that the velocity junkie subset of shooters has caught the attention of some boutique ammo makers.

There's nothing wrong with "hot" ammo, but if it's hyped to dangerous levels sooner or later something's going to go wrong.

I could probably fit a high performance engine into my sedan but it would be foolish for me to think I could drive that same sedan at 150 mph without some catastrophic breakdown.
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Old 06-06-2013, 22:10   #54
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It does seem that the velocity junkie subset of shooters has caught the attention of some boutique ammo makers.

There's nothing wrong with "hot" ammo, but if it's hyped to dangerous levels sooner or later something's going to go wrong.

I could probably fit a high performance engine into my sedan but it would be foolish for me to think I could drive that same sedan at 150 mph without some catastrophic breakdown.
Hey, if you can produce "hot" ammo & stay in safe pressure limts, great. It's just diff to do on a broad commercial basis. WHich is why you better be pressure testing & you better be tracking & testing samples fo your ammo. It will only take one severe incident to end that company.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:53   #55
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I still have a couple boxes of this same ammo left from a purchase I made last August.
No problems out of my 29sf ... brass looks perfect.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:22   #56
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His company name on the box, on the brass and whom sold it. So Underwood would take the brunt of the liability. Then he could go after the brass company for compensation. May not be fair because the brass was the issue but it is the way I would see it panning out. Though brass failure is even more likely with max loads.

A code on the box would be good. If it is not maybe that is something he will look at at. Honestly I wish the actual manufactur date would be printed on every box of ammo.
Yep. Underwood is holding itself out as a "manufacturer" and can be held liable for damage caused by their ammo, even if it is the brass. Underwood can then attempt to go after Starline for damages.

Similar scenario as faulty brakes on a new car: You will sue GM (or whoever made the car) not the subcontractor who made the faulty part, GM will then be responsible to go after the sub.

At the end of the day, Underwood is responsible to make sure that their ammo is safe. They should follow safe loading practices like the rest of us. Change components? Test and work back up. New lot of powder? Test and work back up.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:08   #57
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Originally Posted by unit1069
It does seem that the velocity junkie subset of shooters has caught the attention of some boutique ammo makers.

There's nothing wrong with "hot" ammo, but if it's hyped to dangerous levels sooner or later something's going to go wrong.

I could probably fit a high performance engine into my sedan but it would be foolish for me to think I could drive that same sedan at 150 mph without some catastrophic breakdown.

Well said. I agree. It appears this is what this company is doing. Pushing the "hot envelope," without proper wisdom and testing components.



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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Hey, if you can produce "hot" ammo & stay in safe pressure limts, great. It's just diff to do on a broad commercial basis. WHich is why you better be pressure testing & you better be tracking & testing samples fo your ammo. It will only take one severe incident to end that company.


Agreed. There have already been a couple old boys around here blow up a glock with this ammo in it. The "need for speed bandwagon," can be a risky wagon to ride on, if things are not tested within proper limits. Whether it is from a company like this, or at our own loading benches, not using good sense.





Good word amigo's !









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Old 06-07-2013, 13:13   #58
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vSomeone say explosion
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Old 06-07-2013, 13:14   #59
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Well said. I agree. It appears this is what this company is doing. Pushing the "hot envelope," without proper wisdom and testing components.







Agreed. There have already been a couple old boys around here blow up a glock with this ammo in it. The "need for speed bandwagon," can be a risky wagon to ride on, if things are not tested within proper limits. Whether it is from a company like this, or at our own loading benches, not using good sense.





Good word amigo's !



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I can tell you right now, I KB a gun & suffer an injury from anyone's commercial ammo, they will be out of business. I hate lawyers, but my suit will be large enough to drive them out of business.
When buying commercial ammo, one has a right to expect safe ammo. If it doesn't work in every single gun it's fired in, then it's unsafe. It would go like this: Mr Underwood rep, can you produce the pressure documents for your ammo? You better & they better be in SAAMI spec or adios the business. One reason I do NOT buy form boutique ammo manuf, not until they have a proven track record.
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Old 06-07-2013, 13:33   #60
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I can tell you right now, I KB a gun & suffer an injury from anyone's commercial ammo, they will be out of business. I hate lawyers, but my suit will be large enough to drive them out of business.
When buying commercial ammo, one has a right to expect safe ammo. If it doesn't work in every single gun it's fired in, then it's unsafe. It would go like this: Mr Underwood rep, can you produce the pressure documents for your ammo? You better & they better be in SAAMI spec or adios the business. One reason I do NOT buy form boutique ammo manuf, not until they have a proven track record.
Exactly !

As ya know, A few years ago I had a KB with a G20 and that day, rather than my handloads, I decided to shoot some WW Silvertips. I think it was the second shot and Ka Boom !

About all GT has seen the pics, so I will spare them. ha.
Well WW did buy me a brand new gun G20sf, and paid my ey doctor bill (yes I had on glasses, but flak got up under themetc). And that was that..

I do not know to what extent I could reall have carried my case any further with them, as there was not even enough forensic evidence to prove it was their round, as all the brass everything was gone to the moon ! ha.

BUT, they took the rap any way and bought me a new gun and paid some eye doc bills. IF there had been brass left in the chamber to prove beyond a shadow of doubt it was theirs, I would have persued that further...

I did have two witness that signed a paper to the fact it was their ammo, and had pics of a pile of it on the bench there with the blown up G20, but it was not enough evidence.

I am surprised they bought the new gun and paid the eye doc bills, but I reckon they felt they ought to..!!

I agree with ya amigo. Enough proof that Billy Bob's ammo blew the gun and or hurt someone, they should take that company down all they can.

I trust my own hand loads (as you do yours) more than factory stuff, and am not rally afraid of factory stuff, BUT the "boutique ammo manufacturers" as you call them. Hey, I want nothing to do with their products.

It is to much ma & Pa for me amigo !

Stay safe my friend. Let me know if your comig out some time !





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Old 06-07-2013, 15:59   #61
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Well Fred I don't know you would win. In a counter suit you could lose your house.

Unless I am reading wrong, SAAMI is a Org unless I am mistaking. The only member I see on that list is Double Tap which would be bound to such standards and perhaps why their ammo isn't what it was (and stays in SAAMI). As a note Cor-Bon is on the list and also probably within the SAAMI guidelines. Buffalo Bore, Underwood and a few others loading at max SAAMI or a little over aren't under the same umbrella.

List: http://www.saami.org/member_companies/index.cfm

10mm SAAMI specs: http://www.saami.org/specifications_...essureData.pdf

You stated you don't buy it so in your case none of this applies anyway. It's in the end up to the user, owner of said firearm.

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Old 06-07-2013, 16:06   #62
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Over the past year I've shot quite a bit of Underwood in 9mm, .357 SIG, and 10mm. It's too hot for the task, IMO. I considered carrying their Gold Dot when I packed the .357 SIG, but that load is just a tad too much. Consistent velocities in the 1375 to 1425 fps range would be more than sufficient compared to their 1475 advertised (I clocked over 1500 in a G32).
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:12   #63
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TN,

He is working backwards now. The 180's I recently tested several times show it and the powder switched.

Can you fill me in on the SAAMI spec's? Not all ammo has to meet or be under correct? Since Double Tap went mainstream commercial like at Midway, etc... they have to be there the way I see it. Then again PBR and HPR makes a strong 10mm but aren't on the list.
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:22   #64
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SAAMI is an organization that tries to set standards for the gun and ammo industry to go by for consistancy sake.

Just because X load in Y gun is at or below SAAMI max pressure when tested does not mean X load in Z gun in a different operating environment.

Something as simple as a tighter throat, tighter chamber and/or increased ambient temperature can raise pressures on the borderline max "X" load well above max SAAMI spec. This is some of the reason why there are proof pressure standards as well.
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:26   #65
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This is where things are now. Nothing on the 200's yet though.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...pZy16T0E#gid=6
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:23   #66
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Well Fred I don't know you would win. In a counter suit you could lose your house.

Unless I am reading wrong, SAAMI is a Org unless I am mistaking. The only member I see on that list is Double Tap which would be bound to such standards and perhaps why their ammo isn't what it was (and stays in SAAMI). As a note Cor-Bon is on the list and also probably within the SAAMI guidelines. Buffalo Bore, Underwood and a few others loading at max SAAMI or a little over aren't under the same umbrella.

List: http://www.saami.org/member_companies/index.cfm

10mm SAAMI specs: http://www.saami.org/specifications_...essureData.pdf

You stated you don't buy it so in your case none of this applies anyway. It's in the end up to the user, owner of said firearm.
COunter sue on what grounds, I lost a gun & an eye? I am sure some shmuck lawyer could spin it, but if I have their ammo & a KB gun, oh I am sure I can find another lawyer shmuck to go contingency.
Yes no one is required to go by SAAMI guidelines but it is one measuring stick. Make an unsafe product, oh yes, that single suit can easily bring a small co down. NO, in the end it is NOT up to the user to make sure the manuf product is safe, only that they use it in a safe manor. If an old lady can get $250K for spilling hot coffee on herself, I am sure I could get $2-$3M for loss of an eye. You are right though, until someone can prove their stuff is safe, I would never buy it, foolish.
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:51   #67
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I have never heard of ANYONE in a Kaboom lose an eye or digit. If you have some link or info on one I would love to see and read about it.
True they should be making safe ammo but you should also know if your platform is set up to handle it correctly or if it should even be put in there. I have seen many warnings about not shooting from X firearm in all calibers by ammo makers.

After a round went Kaboom and damaged a firearm it would be a tough battle proving what went wrong and where to point the finger. I'm curious now and want to run my own search on lawsuits won against ammunition MFG's. Should be something out there if it's in the millions.
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:06   #68
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Found a Hornady which involved an eye but no details on 75k settlement: http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/...p?f=20&t=79733

Didn't find any others. I know Remington, Federal, Winchester have all had recalls for big issues in the field. Never heard of lawsuits stemming from them.
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:18   #69
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I love these threads, it's gone from hey I had a brass problem to Underwood makes over pressured ammo, to If/Sue etc. Of course there are no links to any conclusive evidence it is over pressured or anything other than supposition, but let's not let that stop us.

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Old 06-07-2013, 18:21   #70
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The damage that is done during a KB can vary. The round used, type of firearm and etc all play a factor. Parts usually go everywhere regardless. A revolver that goes KB can blow the cylinder apart and the top of the frame off which goes flying. A rifle that KBs is usually fairly close to your face. Pistols vary at how they blow some pistols will fail with less damage to the shooter than other. Nothing I ever want to experience.
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:40   #71
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Just like when I got my Motorcycle I was told "we all go down". That theory proved itself out a few years later thanks to a Turkey Vulture of all things. I sold the bike because my SO got a little hurt. If not for that I wouldn't have given up riding.

I have already had a .22 Remington Golden Bullet "Kaboom". You shoot long enough and plenty each time I believe the same theory applies YOU WILL experience this. All big factory is not much more of a protection either as you can see. Handloaders experience the same thing and sometimes much more often.

We have been pulling Underwood Ammo down for a while now and haven't found a way out load that would be an eye-opener or unsafe. Can't speak about the brass other than a handloader experience splits in his recent Starline brass also at a much lower loading. To date I have no information on a standard Starline piece of brass that has split at extreme loads.

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Old 06-07-2013, 19:10   #72
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The damage that is done during a KB can vary. The round used, type of firearm and etc all play a factor. Parts usually go everywhere regardless. A revolver that goes KB can blow the cylinder apart and the top of the frame off which goes flying. A rifle that KBs is usually fairly close to your face. Pistols vary at how they blow some pistols will fail with less damage to the shooter than other. Nothing I ever want to experience.

Hey my good friend... Your dang right about all this... I will post my G20 pic once again for folks !

Thanks for your post amigo !

Bless ya.
Stay safe !


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This hurt, 'almost" as bad (not quite, ha) as being stomped on in my rodeo days, by a bronc ! It was painful I'll leave it at that !


Your right ! Parts went every where. In fact we never found half of them, this one was so bad !


Stays safe Buddy !

Bless ya man.





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Old 06-07-2013, 19:40   #73
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^^^ I forgot about that one. Overall I think the ole G20 handled it fairly well.

A while back a guy Kaboomed his FN 5.7 and the gun did not take it as good and he got his majorly screwed up.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-seven-kaboom/
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Old 06-07-2013, 19:51   #74
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Banana!

What's the story on that one? Plugged barrel
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Old 06-07-2013, 20:04   #75
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^^^ I forgot about that one. Overall I think the ole G20 handled it fairly well.

A while back a guy Kaboomed his FN 5.7 and the gun did not take it as good and he got his majorly screwed up.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-seven-kaboom/

Woooooha ! Shazam, and dad gum ! I feel much better now ! haha.

Looks like a 50 BMG hit that Glock in the link ! ha.



Stay safe amigo !







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