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Old 06-05-2013, 14:54   #41
vulcan71
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So he is replacing all the ammunition you purchased on MAY 1st? How many boxes did you buy and how much did you shoot? When you can post the pictures? I purchased the same ammunition (May 9th) and I have NOT received a phone call. The box was too small for the 1 box of ammunition and as a result the box was damaged and the plastic ammo holder was broken; the packing material was current news paper advertisements. The ammunition looked undamaged but with your current issues and past issues...? Since he knows he has a bad lot of ammunition why is he NOT calling his customers (recall)? Why does he need the ammunition back as there is no recall? I am lucky as this was my canary purchase for underwood and this load.
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Old 06-05-2013, 16:09   #42
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So he is replacing all the ammunition you purchased on MAY 1st? How many boxes did you buy and how much did you shoot? When you can post the pictures? I purchased the same ammunition (May 9th) and I have NOT received a phone call. The box was too small for the 1 box of ammunition and as a result the box was damaged and the plastic ammo holder was broken; the packing material was current news paper advertisements. The ammunition looked undamaged but with your current issues and past issues...? Since he knows he has a bad lot of ammunition why is he NOT calling his customers (recall)? Why does he need the ammunition back as there is no recall? I am lucky as this was my canary purchase for underwood and this load.
I bought three boxes. He knows I shot two of them and had problems with both. I think he is replacing those two and sending for a return of the third. In your case I would suggest calling him to see what he'll do for you. He appears to be quite upstanding and will likely do what you want.
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Old 06-05-2013, 17:51   #43
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One of the things that would cause me concern if I was using their ammo is this paragraph that I found on their "About Us" page:



Underwood's claim that they don't rely on "special test facilities" seems to suggest that they are probably not confirming that their loads conform to SAAMI pressure standards and if their "claim to fame" is ammunition loaded to maximum power the choice to eschew may prove to be problematic in the end.

I like 'hot' ammo just as much as anyone else, but I've also grown attached to my fingers and like them right where they are.
Well you could send ammo to a test facility for pressure testing. It's what I would do if I did not want to buy expensive testing gear. Even a Pressure Trace system would give you a really close idea as to what you are cooking up. You can't run it on a semiauto, but one could have custom bbls made for a TC in the proper bbl length. IT's how I would go today if starting an ammo company up to produce things like +P ammo.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:45   #44
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It's unfortunate this lot of Nickel brass has issues and it's Underwood's Ammo. Their are other options like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon and PBR Ammo unless you want to use one of the big MFG's like Winchester. I don't blame any of you who don't want to shoot Underwood as it isn't for everyone. Current situation:

- PBR Ammo hasn't received brass in a long while, so no stock or expected date.
- Double Tap must be running into supply issues. Their Facebook page has posts of irate customers waiting on orders.
- Buffalo Bore seems to at least be loading ammo. I recently purchased 180's which had a Sierra bullet with Remington brass. They have been using whatever bullet they can get so it could be Winchester, Sierra, Montana Gold, Remington...
- Cor-Bon seems to have stock of most their ammo and I do believe they make their own bullets.

Outside of those you step down decently in performance at the next level plus bullet choices.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:52   #45
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I forgot one. Reed's Ammo makes some strong 10mm ammo but don't know their current status. In the past I had three different orders and cancelled them all due to the wait. If you go that route I would phone them up to see what they have in immediate stock or you could be disappointed with ordering on-line.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:28   #46
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I've shot a lot of DT nickel plated ammo without ever having a problem with splits. I once had a box of DT 10mm that was overpressure and got smileys, not splits. My point is whether more than one case manufacturer exists for nickel plated cases, or is it all Starline and they just happened to supply Underwood with some faulty cases.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:10   #47
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Well you could send ammo to a test facility for pressure testing. It's what I would do if I did not want to buy expensive testing gear. Even a Pressure Trace system would give you a really close idea as to what you are cooking up. You can't run it on a semiauto, but one could have custom bbls made for a TC in the proper bbl length. IT's how I would go today if starting an ammo company up to produce things like +P ammo.
I sure hope that Underwood is at least going that far. From the language on their 'site, I get a distinctly different sense that such is not the case. For their sake, I hope that I am wrong.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:19   #48
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I don't know if this is Underwood or Starline's fault, but this is why I'm not buying a single round/mag/gun for a great while.

Demand goes up, production goes up, quality goes down.

Buyer beware.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:52   #49
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I don't know if this is Underwood or Starline's fault, but this is why I'm not buying a single round/mag/gun for a great while.

Demand goes up, production goes up, quality goes down.

Buyer beware.
Ultimately it IS Underwood's fault, their name is on the brass. You gun goes KB, you are not trying to sue Starline, might not even be their brass, but I doubt it, you are going after Underwood. No, Underwood is making & selling it, they are liable. Why they should be pressure testing & lot marking ALL their ammo. The ethical thing to do is recall all the ammo that they made using that brass, but w/o lot #s, hard to track manuf dates.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:58   #50
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His company name on the box, on the brass and whom sold it. So Underwood would take the brunt of the liability. Then he could go after the brass company for compensation. May not be fair because the brass was the issue but it is the way I would see it panning out. Though brass failure is even more likely with max loads.

A code on the box would be good. If it is not maybe that is something he will look at at. Honestly I wish the actual manufactur date would be printed on every box of ammo.

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Old 06-06-2013, 13:30   #51
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His company name on the box, on the brass and whom sold it. So Underwood would take the brunt of the liability. Then he could go after the brass company for compensation. May not be fair because the brass was the issue but it is the way I would see it panning out. Though brass failure is even more likely with max loads.

A code on the box would be good. If it is not maybe that is something he will look at at. Honestly I wish the actual manufactur date would be printed on every box of ammo.
This is another aspect of the company reloading the ammo. If you are subcontracting the brass, YOU BETTER know it works. That means test batches of each new order of brass. They should be pulling random samples every few 1000 to check for consistency. That would have exposed suspect brass sooner than later & they would not have unhappy customers. There is a lot more to making ammo than filling machine with components & pulling the handle. Let's hope they clean this up, the more small companies making ammo the better, but they have to do it right.
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Old 06-06-2013, 18:05   #52
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Let's hope they clean this up, the more small companies making ammo the better, but they have to do it right.
Underwood does fill a niche in providing affordable ammo, but IMO they are pushing the envelope too far on the pressures, at least on some of their product. But there are shooters who want to push the envelope. Fine, for me I will reload to 10mm potential if I want shock and awe and know I'm not going to hurt myself or damage more guns.
DT (even if not as advertised) and Buffalo Bore make good stuff, but it's way too expensive.
Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip and Hornady are good but too expensive to shoot a lot of.
Underwood, IMO, would be great at their price range if they would back off a little on pressures. Again, YMMD.
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Old 06-06-2013, 21:33   #53
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Underwood does fill a niche in providing affordable ammo, but IMO they are pushing the envelope too far on the pressures, at least on some of their product. But there are shooters who want to push the envelope. Fine, for me I will reload to 10mm potential if I want shock and awe and know I'm not going to hurt myself or damage more guns.
It does seem that the velocity junkie subset of shooters has caught the attention of some boutique ammo makers.

There's nothing wrong with "hot" ammo, but if it's hyped to dangerous levels sooner or later something's going to go wrong.

I could probably fit a high performance engine into my sedan but it would be foolish for me to think I could drive that same sedan at 150 mph without some catastrophic breakdown.
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Old 06-06-2013, 22:10   #54
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It does seem that the velocity junkie subset of shooters has caught the attention of some boutique ammo makers.

There's nothing wrong with "hot" ammo, but if it's hyped to dangerous levels sooner or later something's going to go wrong.

I could probably fit a high performance engine into my sedan but it would be foolish for me to think I could drive that same sedan at 150 mph without some catastrophic breakdown.
Hey, if you can produce "hot" ammo & stay in safe pressure limts, great. It's just diff to do on a broad commercial basis. WHich is why you better be pressure testing & you better be tracking & testing samples fo your ammo. It will only take one severe incident to end that company.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:53   #55
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I still have a couple boxes of this same ammo left from a purchase I made last August.
No problems out of my 29sf ... brass looks perfect.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:22   #56
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His company name on the box, on the brass and whom sold it. So Underwood would take the brunt of the liability. Then he could go after the brass company for compensation. May not be fair because the brass was the issue but it is the way I would see it panning out. Though brass failure is even more likely with max loads.

A code on the box would be good. If it is not maybe that is something he will look at at. Honestly I wish the actual manufactur date would be printed on every box of ammo.
Yep. Underwood is holding itself out as a "manufacturer" and can be held liable for damage caused by their ammo, even if it is the brass. Underwood can then attempt to go after Starline for damages.

Similar scenario as faulty brakes on a new car: You will sue GM (or whoever made the car) not the subcontractor who made the faulty part, GM will then be responsible to go after the sub.

At the end of the day, Underwood is responsible to make sure that their ammo is safe. They should follow safe loading practices like the rest of us. Change components? Test and work back up. New lot of powder? Test and work back up.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:08   #57
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It does seem that the velocity junkie subset of shooters has caught the attention of some boutique ammo makers.

There's nothing wrong with "hot" ammo, but if it's hyped to dangerous levels sooner or later something's going to go wrong.

I could probably fit a high performance engine into my sedan but it would be foolish for me to think I could drive that same sedan at 150 mph without some catastrophic breakdown.

Well said. I agree. It appears this is what this company is doing. Pushing the "hot envelope," without proper wisdom and testing components.



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Hey, if you can produce "hot" ammo & stay in safe pressure limts, great. It's just diff to do on a broad commercial basis. WHich is why you better be pressure testing & you better be tracking & testing samples fo your ammo. It will only take one severe incident to end that company.


Agreed. There have already been a couple old boys around here blow up a glock with this ammo in it. The "need for speed bandwagon," can be a risky wagon to ride on, if things are not tested within proper limits. Whether it is from a company like this, or at our own loading benches, not using good sense.





Good word amigo's !









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Old 06-07-2013, 13:13   #58
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vSomeone say explosion
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Old 06-07-2013, 13:14   #59
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Well said. I agree. It appears this is what this company is doing. Pushing the "hot envelope," without proper wisdom and testing components.







Agreed. There have already been a couple old boys around here blow up a glock with this ammo in it. The "need for speed bandwagon," can be a risky wagon to ride on, if things are not tested within proper limits. Whether it is from a company like this, or at our own loading benches, not using good sense.





Good word amigo's !



CanyonMan
I can tell you right now, I KB a gun & suffer an injury from anyone's commercial ammo, they will be out of business. I hate lawyers, but my suit will be large enough to drive them out of business.
When buying commercial ammo, one has a right to expect safe ammo. If it doesn't work in every single gun it's fired in, then it's unsafe. It would go like this: Mr Underwood rep, can you produce the pressure documents for your ammo? You better & they better be in SAAMI spec or adios the business. One reason I do NOT buy form boutique ammo manuf, not until they have a proven track record.
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Old 06-07-2013, 13:33   #60
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I can tell you right now, I KB a gun & suffer an injury from anyone's commercial ammo, they will be out of business. I hate lawyers, but my suit will be large enough to drive them out of business.
When buying commercial ammo, one has a right to expect safe ammo. If it doesn't work in every single gun it's fired in, then it's unsafe. It would go like this: Mr Underwood rep, can you produce the pressure documents for your ammo? You better & they better be in SAAMI spec or adios the business. One reason I do NOT buy form boutique ammo manuf, not until they have a proven track record.
Exactly !

As ya know, A few years ago I had a KB with a G20 and that day, rather than my handloads, I decided to shoot some WW Silvertips. I think it was the second shot and Ka Boom !

About all GT has seen the pics, so I will spare them. ha.
Well WW did buy me a brand new gun G20sf, and paid my ey doctor bill (yes I had on glasses, but flak got up under themetc). And that was that..

I do not know to what extent I could reall have carried my case any further with them, as there was not even enough forensic evidence to prove it was their round, as all the brass everything was gone to the moon ! ha.

BUT, they took the rap any way and bought me a new gun and paid some eye doc bills. IF there had been brass left in the chamber to prove beyond a shadow of doubt it was theirs, I would have persued that further...

I did have two witness that signed a paper to the fact it was their ammo, and had pics of a pile of it on the bench there with the blown up G20, but it was not enough evidence.

I am surprised they bought the new gun and paid the eye doc bills, but I reckon they felt they ought to..!!

I agree with ya amigo. Enough proof that Billy Bob's ammo blew the gun and or hurt someone, they should take that company down all they can.

I trust my own hand loads (as you do yours) more than factory stuff, and am not rally afraid of factory stuff, BUT the "boutique ammo manufacturers" as you call them. Hey, I want nothing to do with their products.

It is to much ma & Pa for me amigo !

Stay safe my friend. Let me know if your comig out some time !





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