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Old 06-07-2013, 15:59   #61
intecooler
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Well Fred I don't know you would win. In a counter suit you could lose your house.

Unless I am reading wrong, SAAMI is a Org unless I am mistaking. The only member I see on that list is Double Tap which would be bound to such standards and perhaps why their ammo isn't what it was (and stays in SAAMI). As a note Cor-Bon is on the list and also probably within the SAAMI guidelines. Buffalo Bore, Underwood and a few others loading at max SAAMI or a little over aren't under the same umbrella.

List: http://www.saami.org/member_companies/index.cfm

10mm SAAMI specs: http://www.saami.org/specifications_...essureData.pdf

You stated you don't buy it so in your case none of this applies anyway. It's in the end up to the user, owner of said firearm.

Last edited by intecooler; 06-07-2013 at 16:00..
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:06   #62
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Over the past year I've shot quite a bit of Underwood in 9mm, .357 SIG, and 10mm. It's too hot for the task, IMO. I considered carrying their Gold Dot when I packed the .357 SIG, but that load is just a tad too much. Consistent velocities in the 1375 to 1425 fps range would be more than sufficient compared to their 1475 advertised (I clocked over 1500 in a G32).
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:12   #63
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TN,

He is working backwards now. The 180's I recently tested several times show it and the powder switched.

Can you fill me in on the SAAMI spec's? Not all ammo has to meet or be under correct? Since Double Tap went mainstream commercial like at Midway, etc... they have to be there the way I see it. Then again PBR and HPR makes a strong 10mm but aren't on the list.
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:22   #64
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SAAMI is an organization that tries to set standards for the gun and ammo industry to go by for consistancy sake.

Just because X load in Y gun is at or below SAAMI max pressure when tested does not mean X load in Z gun in a different operating environment.

Something as simple as a tighter throat, tighter chamber and/or increased ambient temperature can raise pressures on the borderline max "X" load well above max SAAMI spec. This is some of the reason why there are proof pressure standards as well.
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Old 06-07-2013, 16:26   #65
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This is where things are now. Nothing on the 200's yet though.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...pZy16T0E#gid=6
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:23   #66
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Well Fred I don't know you would win. In a counter suit you could lose your house.

Unless I am reading wrong, SAAMI is a Org unless I am mistaking. The only member I see on that list is Double Tap which would be bound to such standards and perhaps why their ammo isn't what it was (and stays in SAAMI). As a note Cor-Bon is on the list and also probably within the SAAMI guidelines. Buffalo Bore, Underwood and a few others loading at max SAAMI or a little over aren't under the same umbrella.

List: http://www.saami.org/member_companies/index.cfm

10mm SAAMI specs: http://www.saami.org/specifications_...essureData.pdf

You stated you don't buy it so in your case none of this applies anyway. It's in the end up to the user, owner of said firearm.
COunter sue on what grounds, I lost a gun & an eye? I am sure some shmuck lawyer could spin it, but if I have their ammo & a KB gun, oh I am sure I can find another lawyer shmuck to go contingency.
Yes no one is required to go by SAAMI guidelines but it is one measuring stick. Make an unsafe product, oh yes, that single suit can easily bring a small co down. NO, in the end it is NOT up to the user to make sure the manuf product is safe, only that they use it in a safe manor. If an old lady can get $250K for spilling hot coffee on herself, I am sure I could get $2-$3M for loss of an eye. You are right though, until someone can prove their stuff is safe, I would never buy it, foolish.
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Old 06-07-2013, 17:51   #67
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I have never heard of ANYONE in a Kaboom lose an eye or digit. If you have some link or info on one I would love to see and read about it.
True they should be making safe ammo but you should also know if your platform is set up to handle it correctly or if it should even be put in there. I have seen many warnings about not shooting from X firearm in all calibers by ammo makers.

After a round went Kaboom and damaged a firearm it would be a tough battle proving what went wrong and where to point the finger. I'm curious now and want to run my own search on lawsuits won against ammunition MFG's. Should be something out there if it's in the millions.
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:06   #68
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Found a Hornady which involved an eye but no details on 75k settlement: http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/...p?f=20&t=79733

Didn't find any others. I know Remington, Federal, Winchester have all had recalls for big issues in the field. Never heard of lawsuits stemming from them.
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:18   #69
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I love these threads, it's gone from hey I had a brass problem to Underwood makes over pressured ammo, to If/Sue etc. Of course there are no links to any conclusive evidence it is over pressured or anything other than supposition, but let's not let that stop us.

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Old 06-07-2013, 18:21   #70
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The damage that is done during a KB can vary. The round used, type of firearm and etc all play a factor. Parts usually go everywhere regardless. A revolver that goes KB can blow the cylinder apart and the top of the frame off which goes flying. A rifle that KBs is usually fairly close to your face. Pistols vary at how they blow some pistols will fail with less damage to the shooter than other. Nothing I ever want to experience.
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Old 06-07-2013, 18:40   #71
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Just like when I got my Motorcycle I was told "we all go down". That theory proved itself out a few years later thanks to a Turkey Vulture of all things. I sold the bike because my SO got a little hurt. If not for that I wouldn't have given up riding.

I have already had a .22 Remington Golden Bullet "Kaboom". You shoot long enough and plenty each time I believe the same theory applies YOU WILL experience this. All big factory is not much more of a protection either as you can see. Handloaders experience the same thing and sometimes much more often.

We have been pulling Underwood Ammo down for a while now and haven't found a way out load that would be an eye-opener or unsafe. Can't speak about the brass other than a handloader experience splits in his recent Starline brass also at a much lower loading. To date I have no information on a standard Starline piece of brass that has split at extreme loads.

Last edited by intecooler; 06-07-2013 at 18:47..
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Old 06-07-2013, 19:10   #72
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The damage that is done during a KB can vary. The round used, type of firearm and etc all play a factor. Parts usually go everywhere regardless. A revolver that goes KB can blow the cylinder apart and the top of the frame off which goes flying. A rifle that KBs is usually fairly close to your face. Pistols vary at how they blow some pistols will fail with less damage to the shooter than other. Nothing I ever want to experience.

Hey my good friend... Your dang right about all this... I will post my G20 pic once again for folks !

Thanks for your post amigo !

Bless ya.
Stay safe !


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This hurt, 'almost" as bad (not quite, ha) as being stomped on in my rodeo days, by a bronc ! It was painful I'll leave it at that !


Your right ! Parts went every where. In fact we never found half of them, this one was so bad !


Stays safe Buddy !

Bless ya man.





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Old 06-07-2013, 19:40   #73
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^^^ I forgot about that one. Overall I think the ole G20 handled it fairly well.

A while back a guy Kaboomed his FN 5.7 and the gun did not take it as good and he got his majorly screwed up.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-seven-kaboom/
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Old 06-07-2013, 19:51   #74
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Banana!

What's the story on that one? Plugged barrel
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Old 06-07-2013, 20:04   #75
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^^^ I forgot about that one. Overall I think the ole G20 handled it fairly well.

A while back a guy Kaboomed his FN 5.7 and the gun did not take it as good and he got his majorly screwed up.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-seven-kaboom/

Woooooha ! Shazam, and dad gum ! I feel much better now ! haha.

Looks like a 50 BMG hit that Glock in the link ! ha.



Stay safe amigo !







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Old 06-07-2013, 20:14   #76
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I have never heard of ANYONE in a Kaboom lose an eye or digit. If you have some link or info on one I would love to see and read about it.
True they should be making safe ammo but you should also know if your platform is set up to handle it correctly or if it should even be put in there. I have seen many warnings about not shooting from X firearm in all calibers by ammo makers.

After a round went Kaboom and damaged a firearm it would be a tough battle proving what went wrong and where to point the finger. I'm curious now and want to run my own search on lawsuits won against ammunition MFG's. Should be something out there if it's in the millions.
Making broad statements isn't good.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1489390
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Old 06-07-2013, 20:20   #77
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Banana!

What's the story on that one? Plugged barrel
I think that gun blew up from some Winchester ammo. It is one of the reason why Canyon Man loads all his own ammo now.
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Old 06-07-2013, 20:23   #78
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To date I have no information on a standard Starline piece of brass that has split at extreme loads.
So then what are you saying about the OPs situation?

Does Underwood use Starline brass?

Is the brass in the OPs picture split?
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Old 06-07-2013, 20:41   #79
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Yes always Starline. Yes split. Yes get replaced with regular brass.
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Old 06-07-2013, 20:53   #80
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Just like when I got my Motorcycle I was told "we all go down". That theory proved itself out a few years later thanks to a Turkey Vulture of all things. I sold the bike because my SO got a little hurt. If not for that I wouldn't have given up riding.
.
Not even close! Your analogy is competely off. Instead how about this; your motrcycle blows up, do to a factory default in the piston, rod, take yor pick. The resulting crash results in lower paralysis. You have done nothing wrong, defective manuf part. People get multi million $$ settlements on faulty airbags, breaks ladders, hair driers, I see no reason a bad round of ammo causing injury would not also sim.
Regardless of what safety gear we should use, the device you use should be safe to use. If not, the manuf will be sued & will lose. It happens every single day in this country. When I chamber a round to go bang, I expect a given result. I KB myself using my handloads, my bad, regardless of who's brass I use. Now a commercial manuf of ammo, they better hope all they have to replace is a gun. ANY injury, especially if there is even a hint of negligence, that my friend will cost them, huge. The reason you never hear about some huge settlement, the majors learend along time ago that if you can make it, someone can breal it & if it is even a hint the manuf is in defect, they pay big.
How much do you think I could get from the ammo manuf, gun manuf & the shooter, if I am at a range & remove my glasses for what ever reason & you have KB next to me with faulty ammo? Yeah, sure it could happen. I have had guys lose guns w/ me in attendance. FOrtunately I was wearing glass. No, the consumer has a right to legal action if ANY product causes them injury from faulty or negligent manuf.
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Last edited by fredj338; 06-07-2013 at 21:01..
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