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Old 06-07-2013, 21:25   #81
intecooler
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No Kaboom or people damage here... let's move on.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:30   #82
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It is being replaced with more nickle.
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:38   #83
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Originally Posted by intecooler View Post
Because I talked to Kevin directly and asked him. I didn't really need to though because I have dealt with Kevin since inception and he has never used ANYTHING but Starline.

What exactly is your relationship with Underwood?
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Old 06-08-2013, 07:47   #84
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No Kaboom or people damage here... let's move on.
I don't care if anyone documents injury or not. Having had two pistols damaged shooting Underwood is enough for me. And what if you were in a self defense situation and the gun stops working due to damage from over pressure ammo?
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:59   #85
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I must have missed your two damaged pistols. Can you post some pictures?

I'm an Underwood customer like others but I started talking with Kevin when he was little known way back when. This was back when 10mm was extremely limited where you could get decent good for the caliber ammo. It's turned into more of a friendship but isn't any different than any other ammo maker that will give me an ear or accept my feedback.

Sorry to hear about your Underwood Ammo issues and also the Winchester Ammo issues shown here. Since Underwood's start I have shot 9mm, 10mm, .357 and .44 Magnum in the countless 1000's of rounds without a single issue. Different platforms, reloads, etc... Trust me if I ever had an issue and thought I could really trace it to the ammo I would be blasting Underwood if it destroyed my firearm.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:02   #86
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I must have missed your two damaged pistols. Can you post some pictures?
Mentioned in a previous post in this thread. I have no pics because it wasn't until recently that I realized the possibility of a connection to the ammo. The first episode was a G29 with a broken locking block. I just ordered a new part and replaced it. The second episode was a Kimber Solo: manual safety fell out and gun locked up, sent to Kimber, replaced sear, extractor and manual safety.
I certainly can't prove it was the ammo, but with my third recent experience I have to wonder. I have been shooting for many decades, including antique guns that maybe shouldn't be shot, and never broke a gun before. So either there is one heck of a coincidence here, or the ammo is at fault. Just my experience. I'm not trying to get anything from Underwood except the ammo replacement they offered out of good customer relations.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:17   #87
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Is the Solo a small length 1911? If so, I watched a guy have fits with a .45ACP version that had already been sent back twice at my local range.

Short slide guns have to really be set up for the high slide velocity. It's much tougher controlling how quickly it moves.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:18   #88
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The Winchester 10mm ammo issues are few and far in between. How many 10mm Winchester KB's have we heard of besides Canyon Man's? I personally have heard of none.

I am sure they are out there but there aren't many that we have heard of, in other words, there aren't many. This is especially telling when you consider the huge amount of Winchester 10mm Silvertip that is sold in stores, on line, and has been out there available to 10mm shooters for decades.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:29   #89
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I would like to hear more on the Winchester. What was determined to be the cause and what action did Winchester take about gun/ammo replacement?

I urge all of you to write Kevin. I put together some data today and sent it to him about .357Sig and 10mm changes. As for 10mm

135@ 1500 FPS (Reduction here because I think they are a little higher)
155@1400 FPS (Reduction here because I think they are a little higher)
165@1350 FPS (I think these are 1400 currently but has been a while)
180@1275 FPS (Generally there)
200@1200 FPS (Easily done because it was the older loading)
220@1150 FPS (No huge adjustment)

Don't know if he will want to do those but I tried.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:33   #90
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Originally Posted by intecooler View Post
I would like to hear more on the Winchester. What was determined to be the cause and what action did Winchester take about gun/ammo replacement?

I urge all of you to write Kevin. I put together some data today and sent it to him about .357Sig and 10mm changes. As for 10mm

135@ 1500 FPS (Reduction here because I think they are a little higher)
155@1400 FPS (Reduction here because I think they are a little higher)
165@1350 FPS (I think these are 1400 currently but has been a while)
180@1275 FPS (Generally there)
200@1200 FPS (Easily done because it was the older loading)
220@1150 FPS (No huge adjustment)

Don't know if he will want to do those but I tried.
I like those numbers.

Canyon Man did a thread a while ago on his Winchester KB here, prior to your membership at Glocktalk. I know he is a bit busy at home, but if you ask him I am sure he will repost it for you when he gets the time.

I can tell you that Winchester replaced his gun, but he could give you the details.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:42   #91
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Trust me when I say my only intentions is that Underwood, PBR and a few of the others making 10mm ammo at a reasonable cost are doing so safely so they can keep all of us non-handloaders in stock with real 10mm. I have written the big guys about doing things with their offerings and they just plain aren't interested. That's why I see these Companies sticking around and really making a go imperative to me and other 10 users who don't want to give them up. If I'm forced to pay the extreme prices of not so stellar ammo it would force my hand.

Last edited by intecooler; 06-08-2013 at 10:46..
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:55   #92
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Is the Solo a small length 1911? If so, I watched a guy have fits with a .45ACP version that had already been sent back twice at my local range.

Short slide guns have to really be set up for the high slide velocity. It's much tougher controlling how quickly it moves.

No, it's not a 1911 setup, and it only comes in 9mm. Kimber did have a lot of problems with it early for FTF, FTE. No kabooms as far as I've heard. I was using Underwood 124 gr ammo in it because Kimber recommended 124 or 147 gr SD type ammo.
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Old 06-08-2013, 11:04   #93
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I looked it up and see it is a short slide. Were you using standard, +P or +P+ when you had the issues?
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:28   #94
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I looked it up and see it is a short slide. Were you using standard, +P or +P+ when you had the issues?
It was 9mm +P 124 gr. either TMJ on the box or FMJ, I have both, though I think they are the same except for the label.

BTW, where did you get the data you posted above?
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Old 06-08-2013, 15:21   #95
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Which data? I posted a bunch of different things.

The last data was based on SAAMI information on their website.
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Old 06-08-2013, 16:24   #96
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What Fred is covering is called strict liability. A consumer has a right to expect certain things from a manufactured product, and the manufacturer has to accept that because of the nature of the product that certain things are liable to happen.

When we buy a gun, we expect it to safely fire SAAMI and other professionally produced ammo. When we buy ammo, we expect it to fire safely in our firearms. We have a right to expect that.

S&W paid for my emergency room visit when they had problems with primer flow tying up the action of their 581, 681, 586, and 686 357 magnum revolvers. I just got a powder burn that required stitches when I was trying to free the action. I kept the muzzle pointed in a safe direction but completely forgot to keep my left finger away from that nasty/dangerous barrel-to-cylinder gap. When I got the action freed up, the cylinder rotated and the gun fired the next round. The hot gases split the pad of my left index finger open to the bone. It looked like a little bird bath for a second, but the heat also cauterized the wound and it stopped bleeding quickly. Then the pain set in. Wow.

Mr. Kelleher at S&W was very quick about paying my hospital bill and offering to buy back the gun. The gun belonged to my brother in law and he had already traded it off on something else by the time we saw the S&W ads in Shooting Times, I think, or Guns & Ammo...

My understanding is that a Seattle police officer was not so lucky when he responded to a bank robbery. He stepped from cover to engage the armed robber, fired a round from his 357 revolver and it tied up. In the second it took for the officer to realize what was going on with his gun, the robber shot him in the chest. IIRC, the officer survived due to wearing a vest, but spent some some time in the hospital nursing a bruised heart, etc.

Now, if I fire some ammo and it blows up in my face I am going to expect medical bills to be paid, a replacement firearm, and if it goes to court I'm going to ask for pain and suffering. I'm sure Mr. Kelleher was happy to pay for my e-room visit because I told him plainly that I wasn't looking to sue for pain and suffering or anything like that. All I wanted was for my hospital bill to be paid, and it was.

I hope Underwood, Double Tap, Buffalo, Grizzly, and all the other manufacturers stay around for a long time. Ditto for Starline brass. The more quality firearm, ammo, and accessory companies, the better.

Every company can have a problem with their products. It's how they respond to those problems that matter, IMO. When it comes to brass, I always go to Starline without a second thought. My 32's, 44 Special, and a couple 45 Colt's have never seen anything else. I know they have had issues in the past but they always made it right. If I do get that 480, I'll be looking for Starline brass over the Hornady brass because most "sticky" extraction problems have been with Hornady brass.

The only problem I have ever encountered with faulty brass was with the Winchester brand. Go figure.

I once tried some magsafe ammo in a Wilson CQB Commander size 1911. No go. The gun just wasn't set up to run on that stuff. My Glock ate it up, but not the 1911. I stopped carrying MagSafe because I just wasn't sure about the longterm use of it. That's why I stopped with the DT, BB, CorBon and have never felt a desire to try the UW ammo.

I load my own for practice and hunting but for SD/HD I stick with Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST. +P ammo is all fine and good, but this +P+ and beyond is not my cup of tea anymore. YMMV.
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Last edited by dougader; 06-08-2013 at 16:30..
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Old 06-08-2013, 16:48   #97
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In that situation it sounds like your injuries were self inflicted freeing the revolver and getting the digits in the line of fire without adequate protection such as a glove. Or am I reading that wrong? The firearm issue may have caused the problem but not everything that followed.

I'm not a Lawyer or Jury to decipher any of the legal issues and bet neither is anyone else rendering outcomes on situations which are best guesses.

Shoot it, don't shoot it. Hate them, don't hate them... I don't really care. It's everyone's free choice.
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Old 06-08-2013, 16:55   #98
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Quote:
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And what if you were in a self defense situation and the gun stops working due to damage from over pressure ammo?
Excellent point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougader View Post
I hope Underwood, Double Tap, Buffalo, Grizzly, and all the other manufacturers stay around for a long time. Ditto for Starline brass. The more quality firearm, ammo, and accessory companies, the better.

Every company can have a problem with their products. It's how they respond to those problems that matter, IMO.
I think everyone welcomes more ammo options, and the more competition the better the prices. That said, I will still avoid any ammo that pushes the caliber envelope to the edge. Iíve seen some shooters complain that the highly-rated Winchester 127-grain +P+ is underpowered for their liking. It makes me wonder how much power they're demanding from a 9mm.

The lesson I take away from some of these threads is if you want ammo that pushes the envelope learn to handload so that you are in control of every round. And if your pistol with factory loads arenít to your satisfaction then step up in caliber/power.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:04   #99
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Originally Posted by intecooler View Post
In that situation it sounds like your injuries were self inflicted freeing the revolver and getting the digits in the line of fire without adequate protection such as a glove. Or am I reading that wrong? The firearm issue may have caused the problem but not everything that followed.

I'm not a Lawyer or Jury to decipher any of the legal issues and bet neither is anyone else rendering outcomes on situations which are best guesses.

Shoot it, don't shoot it. Hate them, don't hate them... I don't really care. It's everyone's free choice.
It's nice to be loyal to associates but really your are trying to stretch your legal reasoning quite thin here.

During the normal functioning of the revolver his actions would have been quite safe. The ammo created an "abnormal" circumstance". He was injured while taking the reasonable and prudent step of unloading a malfunctioning weapon. Nothing he did was beyond the normal precautions one could be expected to take. Just for the record it appears a though the manufacturer did not have a lawyer with your shrewd grasp of the law in their corner.

Really, your attempt, while laudable for it's loyalty, is wandering out into to weeds above your head and not serving a useful purpose to those you wish to defend.
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Old 06-08-2013, 17:26   #100
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I'm not defending anyone. Seems this situation has been handled, although the suspect brass was what I view to be blamed rather than the company assembling it. I have had a few ammo mishaps myself one involving brass. Since it was Armscor ammo and Armscor brass Armscor was totally at fault. Heck, don't buy any of them and just handload your own. Nothing can ever go wrong then!
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