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Old 06-11-2013, 20:25   #1
1canvas
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original 10mm factory loads?

does anyone know what the ammo companies were producing for SD ammo [grain and speed] when the 10mm first came out on the market? I hear about hot 10mm ammo referred to as ''what 10mm was suppost to be'', but I can't believe much of the hot 10mm ammo would have been issued to the patrolman.
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Old 06-11-2013, 21:10   #2
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Norma had two or three loads, don't remember exactly. I shot some in a friend's 1st Gen. Delta Elite in the 80's, which peened badly.

The first verified shooting with one was in Seattle (or Portland?) I believe and I recall it failed miserably. That may have been with Silvertips. Not sure. You're talking almost 30 yrs. hence & my recall is somewhat fuzzy. Ask Mas Ayoob in his Forum on GT as he probably has details.

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Old 06-11-2013, 22:23   #3
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The first major manufacturer of 10mm ammo was Norma of Sweden. There were three loads: 165JHP (which is fairly rare), 170JHP and 200FMJ. I can't tell you what their ballistics are, but the 170JHP and 200FMJ loads I shot out of my S&W 1066 was very erratic. One round would be like a full magnum load and the next would be noticeably weaker in recoil.

One load that the FBI was using during their T&E was the Federal 180JHP XM1001. Once again unknown on its ballistics.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:33   #4
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Norma specs were 170gr. @ 1,400 fps and 200gr. @ 1,200 fps.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:22   #5
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http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:02   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Great link, thanks.

Just purchased some Buffalo Bore that advertises 1500 fps. The opening in the 100% copper bullet hollow point, is large enough to park a 1959 Buick in there.

Buck fifty a round. Filled my self defence mags with them.

Sent from my VS950 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:08   #7
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Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
Norma specs were 170gr. @ 1,400 fps and 200gr. @ 1,200 fps.
Having fired both back in the day, in (2) Bren & my Delta, the 170gr never got close to those numbers, more like 1250fps. The 200gr, about 1175fps in 3 diff 5" guns.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:08   #8
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
Great link, thanks.

Just purchased some Buffalo Bore that advertises 1500 fps. The opening in the 100% copper bullet hollow point, is large enough to park a 1959 Buick in there.

Buck fifty a round. Filled my self defence mags with them.

Sent from my VS950 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Yeah those barnes bullets are expensive. I've been trying to find a quality deep penetrating HP for my 10mm. I've thought about getting some hornady xtp in either 180 or 200gr but I can't seem to find them anywhere. I've thought about trying some of those barnes bullets but they are so light that I fear they would be a poor choice for the woods.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:09   #9
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Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
Great link, thanks.

Just purchased some Buffalo Bore that advertises 1500 fps. The opening in the 100% copper bullet hollow point, is large enough to park a 1959 Buick in there.

Buck fifty a round. Filled my self defence mags with them.

Sent from my VS950 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Even at $1.50 per, hopefully you are going to test fire at least one mag worth?? Nothing goes in my carry guns that isn't tested, even revolver ammo.
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Old 06-12-2013, 15:18   #10
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I have a couple of boxes of the Norma 200 fmjs. They are pretty stout. Also have some Black Hills that look like they are loaded with Sierra bullets. Can't remember the grain. Blue box. The local PD used them back in the day. They are also fairly warm.
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Old 06-12-2013, 17:30   #11
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Having fired both back in the day, in (2) Bren & my Delta, the 170gr never got close to those numbers, more like 1250fps. The 200gr, about 1175fps in 3 diff 5" guns.
actually, the loads produced back then are not much different than what the big ammo makers are making now.
I wonder if people were relying on published velocities and not actual when they talk about old 10mm velocities.
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Old 06-12-2013, 17:36   #12
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actually, the loads produced back then are not much different than what the big ammo makers are making now.
I wonder if people were relying on published velocities and not actual when they talk about old 10mm velocities.
Sort of. The Win 175grSTHP is very close to the original Norma round. No one is making a Norma like 200gr anymore, too much recoil for the guns back then. Lots of Deltas & Brens ended up with cracked frames.
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Old 06-12-2013, 17:49   #13
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Having fired both back in the day, in (2) Bren & my Delta, the 170gr never got close to those numbers, more like 1250fps. The 200gr, about 1175fps in 3 diff 5" guns.
This is very true. For whatever reason the 200gr Norma load was always more consistent than the 170gr load.

When I got my first G20 many, many moons ago, the gentleman I bought it from gave me several boxes of Norma ammo.

When shooting the 170 grainers I could sometimes feel a noticeable difference in recoil from shot to shot.

With the 200 grain load it was always the same thump.

I asked him about it and he confirmed that was his experience as well.
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Old 06-12-2013, 18:35   #14
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I have had good luck with the 200 Nosler HP at near max velocity. It goes deep and hangs tuff. I shoot it out of 6" Lone wolf.

here is a pic of a nosler 200gr HP shot with a max load of blue dot.

Caliber Corner
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Old 06-12-2013, 19:18   #15
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Nosler handgun JHP's are little known outside of competition and a few boutique loaders. That's unfortunate as they are IMO a real sleeper.

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Old 06-12-2013, 19:35   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Norma had two or three loads, don't remember exactly. I shot some in a friend's 1st Gen. Delta Elite in the 80's, which peened badly.

The first verified shooting with one was in Seattle (or Portland?) I believe and I recall it failed miserably. That may have been with Silvertips. Not sure. You're talking almost 30 yrs. hence & my recall is somewhat fuzzy. Ask Mas Ayoob in his Forum on GT as he probably has details.
I just put in a post to Mas to see what he can add.
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Old 06-12-2013, 19:43   #17
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very good read on the history.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:44   #18
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Quote:
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I just put in a post to Mas to see what he can add.
I just read Mas' reply to you. This is one of the loads the Kentucky State Police Used:

Caliber Corner

I believe a retired Kentucky Trooper told me it was loaded to about 1200 fps, or maybe a little faster.

Edit: Photo courtesy of GT member Bren.
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Old 06-13-2013, 04:45   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
The first verified shooting with one was in Seattle (or Portland?) I believe and I recall it failed miserably. That may have been with Silvertips. Not sure. You're talking almost 30 yrs. hence & my recall is somewhat fuzzy. Ask Mas Ayoob in his Forum on GT as he probably has details.
After reading Mas' response, I am thinking this was one of the FBI 10mm light loads.
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:49   #20
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Even at $1.50 per, hopefully you are going to test fire at least one mag worth?? Nothing goes in my carry guns that isn't tested, even revolver ammo.
I loaded up a basket of the stuff (cringe) .

Last week, I was plunking with the old stuff, Hydra Shok"s, because they had been in my mags a year. Must keep the supply chain fresh.

I was afraid the Buffalo Bore ammo would not feed well, because of the massive hollow point opening.in the copper bullet. Looks like peering into a jumbo jet engine. Feeds great. No more intimidating to shoot than other ammo.

Sent from my VS950 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:01   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShallNotBeInfringed View Post
I loaded up a basket of the stuff (cringe) .

Last week, I was plunking with the old stuff, Hydra Shok"s, because they had been in my mags a year. Must keep the supply chain fresh.

I was afraid the Buffalo Bore ammo would not feed well, because of the massive hollow point opening.in the copper bullet. Looks like peering into a jumbo jet engine. Feeds great. No more intimidating to shoot than other ammo.

Sent from my VS950 4G using Ohub Campfire mobile app
Cool. Which type of gun?
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:09   #22
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if the Win STHP load actually got the 1290 fps they list on their box from a service length bbl they be spot on in my book. of course theyre over priced as usual.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:21   #23
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4949, thanks for the info on the KSP load. Sounds very similar to the round Pro-Load made for Clay County, 180 grain JHP at 1250 fps. The had very good field performance with it in their shootings.

I believe that shooting in Washington State was PMC 10mm 170 grain JHP.
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Old 06-13-2013, 17:24   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mas Ayoob View Post

I believe that shooting in Washington State was PMC 10mm 170 grain JHP.
Thanks Mas..
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