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Old 06-15-2013, 14:40   #26
capnjim01
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I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
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Old 06-15-2013, 15:01   #27
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Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
1) I do indeed. I only get department practice ammo at official training and to qualify with.

2) From what I've seen, only when they have to.
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Old 06-15-2013, 17:59   #28
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Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
For scheduled training and extra training in the building they do supply ammo for issued calibers. 9, .40, .45, and 10.

Here there are people who shoot every chance they get probably 1/4 to 1/3 of the department. About 1/3 to 1/4 you practically have to order them to show up for equals let alone training. The rest will show up for training and equals and might practice on their own at a range besides the PD at most a few times a year.

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Old 06-15-2013, 20:14   #29
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Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?

Years ago, my agency used to provide 100-rounds of duty ammo a month for practice. They stopped that due to budget(?) IDK.

Now, when I practice (anything that's not official training), I provide my own ammo.

How often do I practice? When I was in patrol, I used to take at least one single- or multi-day pistol class a year. Then at least 8 to 10 times a year to the local range to maintain/refresh what I learned.

But the last couple of years I've gotten lazy with the classes as well as the range. (My excuse is that in the last few years, that gun academy in Springfield MA has not offered many intermediate and advanced handgun classes. And doing a road trip/overnight stay was one thing I looked forward to).
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Old 06-16-2013, 00:51   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
Outside of duty ammo and official training and qualifications we have to provide out own ammo. I suspect you'll find this is the norm.

I like to get out the the range a couple times a month, but once a month is more realistic. The non-gun guys and gals shoot only when they have to which is two or three times per year.




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Old 06-16-2013, 01:29   #31
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There is the 1 lead range. Must wear gloves, dust mask recommended, shot targets and brass go into special bins.

You'd think they store spent nuke rods there...
You ever get lead poisoning you'll understand why.
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:35   #32
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You ever get lead poisoning you'll understand why.
I should have been dead a long, long time ago....
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Old 06-16-2013, 01:50   #33
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Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
Outside of duty ammo and official training and qualifications we have to provide out own ammo. I suspect you'll find this is the norm.

I like to get out the the range a couple times a month, but once a month is more realistic. The non-gun guys and gals shoot only when they have to which is two or three times per year.






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Old 06-16-2013, 02:02   #34
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I should have been dead a long, long time ago....
Because of things like CFS my body doesn't process heavy metals properly. We didn't figure it out until after I had a lead test done and it came back for well above safe levels. It took 8 months of oral chelation meds to knock it down. The other alternative is IV therapy which sucks even worse.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:19   #35
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Why would they provide ammo for training that isnt official? Providing ammo for training not sanctioned by the department would get most agencies in hot water.
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Outside of duty ammo and official training and qualifications we have to provide out own ammo. I suspect you'll find this is the norm.

I like to get out the the range a couple times a month, but once a month is more realistic. The non-gun guys and gals shoot only when they have to which is two or three times per year.






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Old 06-16-2013, 08:43   #36
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Thanks for the replies that's what I kind of figured. The cops I talk to(I know never talk to the police) don't shoot except at qualifying time, with the rare exception of swat guys or the ones who compete.

I live about a mile from the police range and for a couple of days in the spring it sounds like a war zone then pretty much rest of the year nothing.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:22   #37
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I feel for you. The average agency around me has officers shooting closer to monthly. Ours is about that, not counting 16 hrs mandatory training in conjunction with quals 3 gun and lowlight, extra lowlight qual if uou carry a mounted light.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:51   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpuscg04 View Post
There is the 1 lead range. Must wear gloves, dust mask recommended, shot targets and brass go into special bins.

You'd think they store spent nuke rods there...
I never knew about that one when I was there, lol. I guess they don't let us Burro officers over there because they're afraid we'll screw it up somehow or something, lol.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 06-16-2013, 11:55   #39
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Originally Posted by capnjim01 View Post
Thanks for the replies that's what I kind of figured. The cops I talk to(I know never talk to the police) don't shoot except at qualifying time, with the rare exception of swat guys or the ones who compete.

I live about a mile from the police range and for a couple of days in the spring it sounds like a war zone then pretty much rest of the year nothing.
That's about it for us, too. Annual qual only for most staff. Our DCT shoots a lot more, though, in their monthly training, and we have some classes that shoot a lot (basic prisoner transport being one of them). We've had to cancel out last BPT course, though, as well as DCT shooting, due to ammo. We're down to our bare-minimum on hand, and when we placed our order, we were told it was an 8-month wait. Even the rest of the federal government is waiting on DHS!
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 06-16-2013, 13:52   #40
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We're down to our bare-minimum on hand, and when we placed our order, we were told it was an 8-month wait. Even the rest of the federal government is waiting on DHS!

Oh come on, somebody on CT must have a spare key, know where there's a spare key, or know somebody who has a spare key to the back door of DHS's ammo warehouse...

DHS has already received 8 billions rounds since January 1, so they surely can spare a pallet or two.
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Old 06-16-2013, 14:04   #41
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I'm just curios do you guys have to supply your own ammo to practice with?

Also you guys seem to be gun guys, how often does the average police officer who is not into guns shoot?
No......
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Old 06-16-2013, 17:26   #42
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I never knew about that one when I was there, lol. I guess they don't let us Burro officers over there because they're afraid we'll screw it up somehow or something, lol.
We only shot their once. We shot their to qualify with duty ammo before we graduated.
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Old 06-16-2013, 19:38   #43
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We only shot their once. We shot their to qualify with duty ammo before we graduated.
Gotcha. CITP?
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 06-16-2013, 20:09   #44
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Agency add on for HSI.
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Old 06-16-2013, 20:40   #45
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Agency add on for HSI.
Fun times. I didn't realize that HSI's add-on was at FLETC as well.
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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Old 06-17-2013, 21:38   #46
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Was not designed to and will not pass the FBI ammo protocols. Not designed to penetrate anything but a clothed individual, and not very well at that (most tests I've seen are in the neighborhood of 10" in bare gelatin for 115 grain 9mm). With everything out there that does meet FBI criteria, there is no logical reason for an agency to issue Critical Defense.

ETA: Hornady themselves state Critical Defense is not intended for LE use: http://www.hornady.com/support/criti...itical-defense
Dually noted, just sent the link to my FTO.
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Old 06-17-2013, 23:28   #47
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Dually noted, just sent the link to my FTO.
If they like Hornady, the Critical Duty round in the link looks similar to Critical Defense but is actually more robust and designed to pass FBI protocols, just FYI. Still probably better all around to stick with Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, or Winchester Ranger-T though.
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Old 06-18-2013, 13:45   #48
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Once state contract pricing dropped the cost of duty JHP to the cost of major factory ball loads (or lower), we went to using duty JHP for normal quals/training.

It made it possible to shoot existing duty loads for every qual and replace it with fresh duty loads.

Green loads for outside training, if needed due to the venue.

Surplus factory ball loads which surface now and again (seized, donated, acquired from other agencies, etc) get dumped into qual/training stations for use as extra ammo if needed by shooters over & above whatever they're carrying on the gun belts. (Remediation, re-shoots, extra practice, etc.)

We had to start limiting duty ammo availability for off-duty weapon quals when increasingly more folks started bringing in multiple guns. We carry the major duty calibers (9, .40 & .45), as well as .380 & .38 Spl +P. Folks with more than a couple of off-duty weapons (or other authorized calibers) are told to bring their own factory ammo if they want to shoot a lot more of their own guns for quals.

We provide ammo for the same "common calibers" for LEOSA & retirement quals, as well as pre-scheduled range access, targets & instructor staff as a courtesy ... although that could change at any time, of course.

When I was a young cop we were handed 1 box of duty ammo when hired, and then given little plastic bags of nasty LRN or LSWC remanufactured loads for quals. "New" duty ammo was seldom seen unless it had to occur due to new guns/calibers. You had to buy your own better quality (or Magnum) ammo if you wanted to do more than minimum quals or practice.

We only managed to get the money to buy new factory qual ammo after going from revolvers to new hi-cap 9's and having a couple of the LRN remanufactureed loads cause issues during quals.

We have it a LOT better nowadays (aside from occasional waiting on order due to production/supply demands, of course).
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Old 06-20-2013, 18:22   #49
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Same here, except when at FLETC. FLETC only allows frangibles.
Not true, plenty of folks at FLETC shoot duty ammo. The Center Basic Programs, UPTP, CITP, etc., use frangible but Agency Advanced, in-service and state & local training is often done with duty carry ammo.

Quote:
USBP (and any Federal agency for that matter) shoots 100% duty ammo, 100% of the time.
Also not true, several federal agencies use a less expensive (or more expensive non-toxic) ammo for practice.

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There is the 1 lead range. Must wear gloves, dust mask recommended, shot targets and brass go into special bins.

You'd think they store spent nuke rods there...
LOL, best one yet, where do you guys get this stuff? Actually FLETC has 3 lead ranges and gloves or masks are not required or recommended. Only the used cleaning supplies go into "special bins" and that's an EPA requirement. The targets go in the trash and the brass gets recycled.
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Old 06-20-2013, 18:35   #50
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Not true, plenty of folks at FLETC shoot duty ammo. The Center Basic Programs, UPTP, CITP, etc., use frangible but Agency Advanced, in-service and state & local training is often done with duty carry ammo.

Also not true, several federal agencies use a less expensive (or more expensive non-toxic) ammo for practice.

LOL, best one yet, where do you guys get this stuff? Actually FLETC has 3 lead ranges and gloves or masks are not required or recommended. Only the used cleaning supplies go into "special bins" and that's an EPA requirement. The targets go in the trash and the brass gets recycled.
Um, probably comes from personal experience there.

What agency are you with again?
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The first round is a moral decision. All of the following rounds are tactical decisions.
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