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Old 10-20-2013, 21:44   #181
Mad Ryan
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Again, where has anyone advocated eliminating social safety nets? If there are other programs that can be tailored to and scaled to the United States, they would be worth examining.Isn't that what welfare was originally?

I agree. I believe a large number of people using social programs are in them temporarily. Going back to LIHTC housing, its purpose is to provide lower rent to allow tenants to save for a down payment, sometimes to establish credit. Often residents go from LIHTC rentals into HUD ownership programs. I have seen them work very, very successfully, the way they are suppose to.

How would you structure the programs as temporary respites? Where in the system do the reforms start?Good, let's start that at a very young age by teaching personal responsibility, earning what you receive, being rewarded for actual accomplishment, real achievement.

Do you agree with that?
Absolutely.

If one looks at the way social programs and education are structured in countries which have much better results than us you see that everything is tied together. Kids don't go to school hungry. They're taught useful subjects from an early age like math and languages. etc. They produce good students because learning is highly prized in their cultures, and they've got generations of good students to lean on.

Everyone thinks I'm uber liberal but I'm actually just super pragmatic. If you show me a system or a way that actually works I'll be all for it.

I'll be the first to admit that our current approach to social safety nets is horrid. It's counterproductive in many cases. But the problem with our national dialogue is on the one side you have people who want to eliminate many of those programs totally, and on the other side you have people who just want to expand the existing failing mess.

I think maybe we go another way.

In business the first thing you do is look around at what your competition is doing right and emulate them where appropriate. For some reason we've got this idea that despite horrid returns we should just continue to do it our way instead of taking what other countries have done quite well and applying it here.
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Old 10-21-2013, 07:23   #182
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Absolutely.

If one looks at the way social programs and education are structured in countries which have much better results than us you see that everything is tied together. Kids don't go to school hungry. They're taught useful subjects from an early age like math and languages. etc. They produce good students because learning is highly prized in their cultures, and they've got generations of good students to lean on.

Everyone thinks I'm uber liberal but I'm actually just super pragmatic. If you show me a system or a way that actually works I'll be all for it.

I'll be the first to admit that our current approach to social safety nets is horrid. It's counterproductive in many cases. But the problem with our national dialogue is on the one side you have people who want to eliminate many of those programs totally, and on the other side you have people who just want to expand the existing failing mess.

I think maybe we go another way.

In business the first thing you do is look around at what your competition is doing right and emulate them where appropriate. For some reason we've got this idea that despite horrid returns we should just continue to do it our way instead of taking what other countries have done quite well and applying it here.
Good post. Neither side is dealing realistically with the school or social problems. More of the same will just get us more of the same.
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Old 10-21-2013, 08:21   #183
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Good post. Neither side is dealing realistically with the school or social problems. More of the same will just get us more of the same.
How would you correct the problems?
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:04   #184
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How would you correct the problems?
Would you object to looking at what works the best in other countries and applying at least some of it here?

sort of a

Who has the best school system in the world?

Who has the best healthcare system in the world?

Who has the best social safety net system in the world?

etc. etc.

"Best" is subjective but one could come up with criteria for each.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:37   #185
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How would you correct the problems?
Those questions have no perfect answers are entirely too complex to answer on an internet forum. We could try to have a discussion, but I feel it would just descend into nitpicking.
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Old 10-21-2013, 18:51   #186
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Good post. Neither side is dealing realistically with the school or social problems. More of the same will just get us more of the same.
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How would you correct the problems?
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Those questions have no perfect answers are entirely too complex to answer on an internet forum. We could try to have a discussion, but I feel it would just descend into nitpicking.
You present a problem, but you offer no solution.

Your feeling that it would descend into nitpicking, it illustrates that you don't want the discussion because you're afraid you can't defend your position.
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Old 10-21-2013, 18:54   #187
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You present a problem, but you offer no solution.

Your feeling that it would descend into nitpicking, it illustrates that you don't want the discussion because you're afraid you can't defend your position.
Like I said, nitpicking. Not the first time you've done it.
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Old 10-21-2013, 20:11   #188
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How would you correct the problems?
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Like I said, nitpicking. Not the first time you've done it.
If you cannot express yourself here, on an anonymous forum, about how you want your Representative, your Senator to correct the problems with the system, how the hell are you going to do it when you confront them face to face? You have done that, right?

Look at GTPI as a testing ground. It's a chance to test your theories, your presentation.

You agree that there are faults on both sides, yet you do not want to discuss those faults because I will pick at what you post?

muscogee, that is why I pick at what you post. You are great at the "me too" stuff. How about participating in the nitty-gritty details. Are you up to it?
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Old 10-21-2013, 20:24   #189
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T
My own opinion is that instead of simply providing a check every month to help out, we should provide housing assistance, education assistance that's mandatory so that people can get out of the situation they're in. Child care if needed, etc. A comprehensive approach that rather than keeps people dependent on the system, helps people get off the system by getting them training in a field which will help them pay their own bills.
In other words, in addition to giving them free food, I should also pay their rent (more of it than I already am via subsidize housing), pay for their education and their babysitter? No thanks, it's not my job to subsidize their bad decisions.

If you really think giving them more freebies is going to encourage them to provide for themselves, you're more gullible than most.
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Old 10-21-2013, 20:46   #190
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Absolutely.

If one looks at the way social programs and education are structured in countries which have much better results than us you see that everything is tied together. Kids don't go to school hungry. They're taught useful subjects from an early age like math and languages. etc. They produce good students because learning is highly prized in their cultures, and they've got generations of good students to lean on.

Everyone thinks I'm uber liberal but I'm actually just super pragmatic. If you show me a system or a way that actually works I'll be all for it.

I'll be the first to admit that our current approach to social safety nets is horrid. It's counterproductive in many cases. But the problem with our national dialogue is on the one side you have people who want to eliminate many of those programs totally, and on the other side you have people who just want to expand the existing failing mess.

I think maybe we go another way.

In business the first thing you do is look around at what your competition is doing right and emulate them where appropriate. For some reason we've got this idea that despite horrid returns we should just continue to do it our way instead of taking what other countries have done quite well and applying it here.
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
Would you object to looking at what works the best in other countries and applying at least some of it here?

sort of a

Who has the best school system in the world?

Who has the best healthcare system in the world?

Who has the best social safety net system in the world?

etc. etc.

"Best" is subjective but one could come up with criteria for each.
Good posts... It's late, long day. Tomorrow...
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Old 10-21-2013, 21:09   #191
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In other words, in addition to giving them free food, I should also pay their rent (more of it than I already am via subsidize housing), pay for their education and their babysitter? No thanks, it's not my job to subsidize their bad decisions.

If you really think giving them more freebies is going to encourage them to provide for themselves, you're more gullible than most.
Yeah, we can pay to put people through some sort of job training, or we can continue to feed the generational poverty machine.

Here's the thing. We're paying quite a bit to subsidize folks who are low income. Maybe we should toss in some job training or school so they don't stay there.

Who knows, it just might work. (The fact that it works everywhere else this approach is tried probably means it will here too)
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:05   #192
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In other words, in addition to giving them free food, I should also pay their rent (more of it than I already am via subsidize housing), pay for their education and their babysitter? No thanks, it's not my job to subsidize their bad decisions.

If you really think giving them more freebies is going to encourage them to provide for themselves, you're more gullible than most.
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Yeah, we can pay to put people through some sort of job training, or we can continue to feed the generational poverty machine.

Here's the thing. We're paying quite a bit to subsidize folks who are low income. Maybe we should toss in some job training or school so they don't stay there.

Who knows, it just might work. (The fact that it works everywhere else this approach is tried probably means it will here too)
IvanVic, It isn't simple, but it isn't all that complicated. It all depends on who sets the goals, who writes the needs and who writes how to meet the needs.

Understanding the needs...well, first, what's the primary goal?

I would say that would be full employment. Every person earns a wage at least equal to life's expenses for themselves and their dependents.

Are there jobs currently available, unfilled? Here is a link to The New York Times - "Labor -- The New American Job". On this page there are links to many articles. This one, Richmond Awaits a Bold Antipoverty Plan, is about my hometown and embraces several ideas I've worked with, implemented, and seen success from all over the country. They also scare the crap out of people on all sides of these issues. This is from the article:
Quote:
The plan, on which he is staking both his political capital and legacy, has the general support of the City Council but is making others jittery, rich and poor alike.

Emphasizing programs the city can afford on its $760 million budget, Richmond is considering pairing every at-risk child ages 11 to 15 with an adult mentor; razing public housing and replacing it with mixed-income units with the option of homeownership; setting up an intensive manufacturing training program that would give the unemployed the skills needed to work at one of the many local companies looking for workers; starting a farm-to-school program to promote adequate nutrition; and establishing an assistance program to help pay water and wastewater bills for low-income households.
These work.
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Old 10-22-2013, 16:36   #193
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Yeah, we can pay to put people through some sort of job training, or we can continue to feed the generational poverty machine.

Here's the thing. We're paying quite a bit to subsidize folks who are low income. Maybe we should toss in some job training or school so they don't stay there.

Who knows, it just might work. (The fact that it works everywhere else this approach is tried probably means it will here too)
You presume generally that low income people want job training or school.

Fact is, many people are subsidized so much, they see no need for work or school.

(BTW - who recently dropped the work requirement for welfare? Hmmm?)

Where is "everywhere else"?
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Old 10-22-2013, 17:24   #194
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You presume generally that low income people want job training or school.

Fact is, many people are subsidized so much, they see no need for work or school.
Could you provide a link to your source for that fact...

Perhaps first you could quantify the "many" in "many people."

Thanks
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Old 10-22-2013, 17:31   #195
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IvanVic, It isn't simple, but it isn't all that complicated. It all depends on who sets the goals, who writes the needs and who writes how to meet the needs.

Understanding the needs...well, first, what's the primary goal?

I would say that would be full employment. Every person earns a wage at least equal to life's expenses for themselves and their dependents.

Are there jobs currently available, unfilled? Here is a link to The New York Times - "Labor -- The New American Job". On this page there are links to many articles. This one, Richmond Awaits a Bold Antipoverty Plan, is about my hometown and embraces several ideas I've worked with, implemented, and seen success from all over the country. They also scare the crap out of people on all sides of these issues. This is from the article:These work.
Job training is one thing, but the additional subsidies for food, rent and babysitting that Mad Ryan is advocating is just another opportunity for those programs to be abused and used as a lifestyle, not a leg-up.

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Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
You presume generally that low income people want job training or school.

Fact is, many people are subsidized so much, they see no need for work or school.

(BTW - who recently dropped the work requirement for welfare? Hmmm?)

Where is "everywhere else"?
I'm sure some of them do want job training, and others don't.

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Old 10-22-2013, 19:39   #196
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Job training is one thing, but the additional subsidies for food, rent and babysitting that Mad Ryan is advocating is just another opportunity for those programs to be abused and used as a lifestyle, not a leg-up.
I am an advocate for attacking abuse in those systems. For the last ten years before I retired I was active in identifying, investigating and where appropriate prosecuting fraud in the subsidized housing market.

When someone cheats on the housing assistance side, they may, or may not, cheat on SNAP and other immediate need services. Food they need daily - can't lose that. Housing requires an eviction process including appeals. They have time to play the system.

Baby sitting is a tremendous advantage for working parents. It is often the difference between 1, 1 jobs and two full time jobs. It also might allow one parent, maybe both parents to attend classes.

On the other hand, some baby sitting contributes to abuse of the system. Non-licensed baby sitting is often an income generator for those who don't go and work outside of the home. Two or three kids, cash only, no paper trail for the IRS. The kids' parents aren't going to tell. Most likely they don't itemize anyway. When you ask the sitters, they say they are just watching them while the mom is at the store/visiting friends/etc.

When the programs are working with adequate monitoring, supervision, auditing, they are very beneficial to the low income families, the housing developments and the communities.

Where the system fails is when the money is tossed out, hopes and wishes are put out to make people feel good, then when the hard work starts, the speed bumps become 10' high, the worker bees become discouraged, then things start going south...

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that these situations come with changes in the political winds.

If the management of the program is strong, and the participants are committed, there will be success. If there is participation from members of the general community, that success will be even more solid.

What works is going to differ region to region, state to state, MSA to MSA, city to city, neighborhood to neighborhood, family to family. The same programs will not be as important in all areas. There is no cookie cutter solution.

These things must be grassroots efforts to succeed.
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I'm sure some of them do want job training, and others don't.
True, if that is where you want to focus.

One thing I learned over the years, when the system is working well, those misusing/abusing the system really standout. Some move on to communities where they blend in better. Others families and individuals become motivated to join in, participate and benefit. Those who do can surprise you.

When you find a community with a bunch of deadbeats, there are usually more serious problems, criminal problems, which opens another Pandora's Box.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:50   #197
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Yeah, we can pay to put people through some sort of job training, or we can continue to feed the generational poverty machine.

Here's the thing. We're paying quite a bit to subsidize folks who are low income. Maybe we should toss in some job training or school so they don't stay there.

Who knows, it just might work. (The fact that it works everywhere else this approach is tried probably means it will here too)
In Germany you can get unemployment if you're working at a low paying job. The idea is that working anywhere for any salary is better than not working at all. If you're working you're getting on the job training and exposure in the employment market. At the same time it recognizes that people can't afford to work for less than subsistence wages. I think that's a much better idea than minimum wage.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:03   #198
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In Germany you can get unemployment if you're working at a low paying job. The idea is that working anywhere for any salary is better than not working at all. If you're working you're getting on the job training and exposure in the employment market. At the same time it recognizes that people can't afford to work less than subsistence wages. I think that's a much better idea than minimum wage.
So rather than burden the employer they take some money out of the tax pool. Seems logical.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:06   #199
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In Germany you can get unemployment if you're working at a low paying job. The idea is that working anywhere for any salary is better than not working at all. If you're working you're getting on the job training and exposure in the employment market. At the same time it recognizes that people can't afford to work less than subsistence wages. I think that's a much better idea than minimum wage.
You forgot some details, the carrots and the sticks.

Can you provide a link to your source for that information, please...
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:43   #200
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Could you provide a link to your source for that fact...

Perhaps first you could quantify the "many" in "many people."

Thanks
I do not have a number to quantify "many".

I will offer these references




http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/in-...est-days-work/

Quote:
"A combination of food stamps, temporary cash grants, WIC, and housing assistance is worth a pre-tax value more than $30,000 in 16 states. In Hawaii, the most generous state, a working family of three would have to earn almost $61,000 just to be even with the $50,000 in welfare the government hands out."

Cato Institute Report link

http://www.cato.org/publications/whi...-welfare-trade


A counter perspective from The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities - that basically says the not everyone gets every benefit and working families get "pieces" of help.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=4004


All said, I would draw the conclusion that there is some number that say "why work". What that number is, is not defined. How many is many, I will leave to the reader.
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