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Old 10-15-2013, 06:07   #61
muscogee
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
I love this one... The bolded part... It's hilarious...

Everyone who worships at the alter of ignorance and demonizes education eventually tosses that one out. What exactly would lead you to jump to the conclusion that I haven't lived in the real world?

I've essentially supported myself since I was in highschool. I was homeless. I got a job. I gave most of my paycheck to my mom to help feed my brother and sister. I graduated and kept working. Eventually I joined the Marines and did that for a while. I still sent alot of money home till mom was doing OK on her own and didn't need it anymore.

After getting out I went to school for a while then got a great job in high tech industry. Taught myself to build databases. Made myself useful and marketable.

When the economy S**t the bed I decided to go back to school and learn something else. Just another set of tools for the tool box. Another arrow for the quiver. I'm a single dad so being unemployed and useless isn't really an option. I own my own business as well to make ends meet while I'm in college.

See, I think alot of conservatives are just really sheltered. I've been cold, hungry, really cold and hungry. Robbed, beaten multiple times etc. And all of that through no fault of my own. I was a kid. It wasn't my fault. I ended up living in a car. Later I really lucked out and scored someones Motorhome they weren't using for the winter. I'm hardly unique. My valley alone has a couple thousand homeless kids.

The paradigm that many of you cling to on this site is simply not reality. I was the "poor" that so many love to demonize. I did fine because my mom had a college degree so was able to eventually find work and work we all did. Very few in who find themselves in that position now can say that. The jobs aren't there, and the opportunity for education and advancement isn't there like it was 25 years ago.

So yes, in many ways I'm progressive. I believe in relatively robust safety nets for people who find themselves on hard times because these are our fellow Americans. If you can't see that then IMO, there's really something wrong with you.
Grand slam home run. Well said. Since the usual suspects in this forum will have no logical rebuttal, get ready for a deluge of logical fallacies.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:24   #62
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Originally Posted by Goldendog Redux View Post
People really need to stop calling themselves "Patriots" makes them sound like kooks regardless of their message
Not too mention getting that extra IRS scrutiny that Obama has ordered up for opposition parties.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:25   #63
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Grand slam home run. Well said. Since the usual suspects in this forum will have no logical rebuttal, get ready for a deluge of logical fallacies.
The DUers agreeing with each other that the problem is other people, but not them?

Never saw that one coming.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:23   #64
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
So yes, in many ways I'm progressive. I believe in relatively robust safety nets for people who find themselves on hard times because these are our fellow Americans. If you can't see that then IMO, there's really something wrong with you.
Ours is a bad culture for that kind of thing.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:39   #65
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The sad truth of it is patriotic and revolutionary spirit...the thing which ignited our forefathers into saying enough is enough...and been replaced by the gaming system, the smart phone, lots of reality TV and an entire generation of voting people who have more faith in the government to provide for them than they do themselves.


During the Revolutionary War, only THREE percent of the people actually fought against Great Britain.

Only TEN percent of the citizens actively supported that three percent.

Approximately TWENTY percent considered themselves to be on the side of the Revolution, but they did not actively participate.

Towards the climatic end of the war, approximately THIRTY percent actually fought on the side of the British.

The rest of the citizens had no disposition either way. They didnít care. They didnít want anything to do with what they deemed to simply be a political issue.

If "we" were to "act now" I have a feeling we would be severely outnumbered, facing a better equipped and funded (and onshore) government and wouldn't stand a chance.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:14   #66
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
I love this one... The bolded part... It's hilarious...

Everyone who worships at the alter of ignorance and demonizes education eventually tosses that one out. What exactly would lead you to jump to the conclusion that I haven't lived in the real world?

I don't demonize education. I demonize the "academic" who believes the theory postulated in a text book is law and ignores any empirical evidence to the contrary.You parrot the usual progressive economic and social drival that the academicians in this administration do and ignore the less than stellar results. You bad mouth an open market system without ever even seeing it applied in this country. By the way, I have advanced degrees in nuclear engineering and physics, and I am a registered PE. I don't volunteer this information to be snotty, but to show that I do have some experiential base for what I've stated. I learned my profession in the field over thirty years, not from the text books. The college education did nothing but give me the tools to learn how things in the world really work.

What exactly would lead me to jump to the conclusion that you haven't lived in the real world? Many, if not most of you posts dealing economics where the only thing you do to support your progressive big government postions is quote your fine university text books and PhD babble, and ignore the empirical evidence of failed progressive economics.


I've essentially supported myself since I was in highschool. I was homeless. I got a job. I gave most of my paycheck to my mom to help feed my brother and sister. I graduated and kept working. Eventually I joined the Marines and did that for a while. I still sent alot of money home till mom was doing OK on her own and didn't need it anymore.

Thank you for your service.

After getting out I went to school for a while then got a great job in high tech industry. Taught myself to build databases. Made myself useful and marketable.

Good for you.

When the economy S**t the bed I decided to go back to school and learn something else. Just another set of tools for the tool box. Another arrow for the quiver. I'm a single dad so being unemployed and useless isn't really an option. I own my own business as well to make ends meet while I'm in college.

Again, just because you have done the course work, doesn't mean you've leared the subject. Look how wrong the academic elites in government have been on economic policies and their effects on the real economy. I applaud you for taking care of your kid.

See, I think alot of conservatives are just really sheltered. I've been cold, hungry, really cold and hungry. Robbed, beaten multiple times etc. And all of that through no fault of my own. I was a kid. It wasn't my fault. I ended up living in a car. Later I really lucked out and scored someones Motorhome they weren't using for the winter. I'm hardly unique. My valley alone has a couple thousand homeless kids.

You may be correct in some cases, but I find dividing people up like that in an attempt to prove a point is disingenuous and is counter productive. There are plenty of progressives out there who have lived a pretty sweet life. The Ivy League schools are full or them.

The paradigm that many of you cling to on this site is simply not reality. I was the "poor" that so many love to demonize. I did fine because my mom had a college degree so was able to eventually find work and work we all did. Very few in who find themselves in that position now can say that. The jobs aren't there, and the opportunity for education and advancement isn't there like it was 25 years ago.

Who's "you"? My guess would be that your mom found work because she hadn't given up to the .gov gravy train and actually looked for work. And why is it that the jobs aren't there today? And don't tell me because of free market policies. We've had progressives in power, meddling with the economy, for most of the last 25 years.

So yes, in many ways I'm progressive. I believe in relatively robust safety nets for people who find themselves on hard times because these are our fellow Americans. If you can't see that then IMO, there's really something wrong with you.

I like the idea of safety nets for those really in trouble too. But, the "poor" don't need to emulate a "middle class" lifestyle for generations while receiving producers' money after the .gov has taken its vig (that's called corruption). Problem is that the progressive ideology empties out the private sector money pot by transferring all the wealth through the .gov (which earns exactly zero dollars). The result is there is no way to fund the safety net. Leaving the constitutional arguments aside for a now, regardless of what "we like the idea of," the reality is that everything must be paid for eventually in a civil society. Take the ACA. There's lots of arguing over it around here. One question that never gets answered is, how will it be paid for. We all know it isn't free at all.
See. No insults there. Try to keep it that way.

Last edited by Kablam; 10-15-2013 at 10:08..
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:58   #67
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Originally Posted by Syclone0538 View Post
How so? Does the middle class have less stuff, and have a harder time paying for it than 30 years ago? Are you really worse off than your parents were at the same age?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
I love this one... The bolded part... It's hilarious...

Everyone who worships at the alter of ignorance and demonizes education eventually tosses that one out. What exactly would lead you to jump to the conclusion that I haven't lived in the real world?

I've essentially supported myself since I was in highschool. I was homeless. I got a job. I gave most of my paycheck to my mom to help feed my brother and sister. I graduated and kept working. Eventually I joined the Marines and did that for a while. I still sent alot of money home till mom was doing OK on her own and didn't need it anymore.

After getting out I went to school for a while then got a great job in high tech industry. Taught myself to build databases. Made myself useful and marketable.

When the economy S**t the bed I decided to go back to school and learn something else. Just another set of tools for the tool box. Another arrow for the quiver. I'm a single dad so being unemployed and useless isn't really an option. I own my own business as well to make ends meet while I'm in college.

See, I think alot of conservatives are just really sheltered. I've been cold, hungry, really cold and hungry. Robbed, beaten multiple times etc. And all of that through no fault of my own. I was a kid. It wasn't my fault. I ended up living in a car. Later I really lucked out and scored someones Motorhome they weren't using for the winter. I'm hardly unique. My valley alone has a couple thousand homeless kids.

The paradigm that many of you cling to on this site is simply not reality. I was the "poor" that so many love to demonize. I did fine because my mom had a college degree so was able to eventually find work and work we all did. Very few in who find themselves in that position now can say that. The jobs aren't there, and the opportunity for education and advancement isn't there like it was 25 years ago.

So yes, in many ways I'm progressive. I believe in relatively robust safety nets for people who find themselves on hard times because these are our fellow Americans. If you can't see that then IMO, there's really something wrong with you.


So that's a no?
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:08   #68
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Originally Posted by pugman View Post
The sad truth of it is patriotic and revolutionary spirit...the thing which ignited our forefathers into saying enough is enough...and been replaced by the gaming system, the smart phone, lots of reality TV and an entire generation of voting people who have more faith in the government to provide for them than they do themselves.


During the Revolutionary War, only THREE percent of the people actually fought against Great Britain.

Only TEN percent of the citizens actively supported that three percent.

Approximately TWENTY percent considered themselves to be on the side of the Revolution, but they did not actively participate.

Towards the climatic end of the war, approximately THIRTY percent actually fought on the side of the British.

The rest of the citizens had no disposition either way. They didnít care. They didnít want anything to do with what they deemed to simply be a political issue.

If "we" were to "act now" I have a feeling we would be severely outnumbered, facing a better equipped and funded (and onshore) government and wouldn't stand a chance.
During the Revolutionary War the Conservatives wore Red coats. The Liberals wore Blue coats.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:12   #69
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
During the Revolutionary War the Conservatives wore Red coats. The Liberals wore Blue coats.
True, sort of. I only wish that liberals today were the liberals of then. Progressivism does not equal liberalism. Progressives adopted/stole the term liberal so that they could disguise the facist agenda they pursued in the early 1900s and continue to this day.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:20   #70
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Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
True, sort of. I only wish that liberals today were the liberals of then. Progressivism does not equal liberalism. Progressives adopted/stole the term liberal so that they could disguise the facist agenda they pursued in the early 1900s and continue to this day.
Man, you nailed it!
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:27   #71
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During the Revolutionary War the Conservatives wore Red coats. The Liberals wore Blue coats.
You wouldn't think so after reading the Constitution they wrote, now would you?

No, I think liberals would have been the ones wanting the Tea Party protesters put up against the wall and shot, the same as today, as a threat to liberals way of life.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:35   #72
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If we don't fix the wealth divide we're going to be the most well armed banana republic in the world.
I believe that if we continue on the track we are on now, there will be no wealth divide. Everyone will be poor. The fact that the number of jobs are not going up and the pay for each individual job is going down can only mean that we end up at the low middle at best. There is too much generational welfare going on. Too many people on the public dole can only drag down society. Sooner or later each family is going to come to a tipping point where it is more cost effective to not work, than it is to try to keep working and support their own family plus the welfare system.

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Old 10-15-2013, 10:41   #73
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Progressives adopted/stole the term liberal so that they could disguise the facist agenda they pursued in the early 1900s and continue to this day.
The Fascist are in the Republican party. The Ted Cruz wing of the party is not Conservative. They're going to make the country ungovernable until they get their way, and they don't care about elections.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:50   #74
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It's hard to take anything seriously from someone who uses "alot" a lot.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:23   #75
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During the Revolutionary War the Conservatives wore Red coats. The Liberals wore Blue coats.
Jesus was a liberal...
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:29   #76
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Liberal DU rant on.

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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
The Fascist are in the Republican party. The Ted Cruz wing of the party is not Conservative. They're going to make the country ungovernable until they get their way, and they don't care about elections.
Liberal DU rant off.

(But, don't worry. MadRyan thinks you are brilliant).
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:34   #77
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Until the republicans stop shafting the middle class with a giant strap-on so they can give huge tax breaks and incentives to the ultra-rich... er... "Job Creators" I'm going to vote against them. Period. I no longer care if Krusty the Clown runs on the Democrat ticket.

If we don't fix the wealth divide we're going to be the most well armed banana republic in the world.
lets see here, we have a dem pres and the dems had full control of congress yet we have a mess of a healthcare law-wall street is raking in- unemployment still above 7% with god knows how many completely gave up and no longer looking for work...yeah the dems sure love working class folk, thats why they handed out exemptions for obamacare to big business like candy yet put an anchor around the neck of the rest of us...moron
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:36   #78
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See. No insults there. Try to keep it that way.
Your point about ignoring empirical evidence is exactly the problem.

Conservatives and liberals both have been ignoring empirical evidence on a whole host of issues from Economics to Sociology. Not only that but we've seen it pan out in other places but for some reason they act as if economic policies which either work or don't work somehow behave differently here. It'd be the same argument one would make if they tried to say Gravity worked differently on the moon because the moon is smaller than the earth. Sure, there's less gravity, but the fundamental way it works is exactly the same, whether you're on Jupiter, or the moon.

There are lots of people sitting around on unemployment waiting for their job at the factory or whatever to come back. They're going to be waiting a long time because our unemployment problem is one of a structural nature. The jobs that were are no more and the new paradigm is completely different. It's exactly what happened here in Oregon when the timber industry crashed. People who'd worked in mills all their lives either re-trained and found another industry that paid well, or they ended up pumping gas for minimum wage.

So in my case, I read the tea leaves and decided to get something really useful but just generic enough that I can take it anywhere in the world and make a living. Lots of folks have that same idea but I'm smart, I'm a hard worker, and I have no doubt I'll be able to do fine.

But I still bump into people who haven't had a job since the last round of mill closures about 3 years ago. They hang around the gun store *****ing about Obama. They're waiting for "the jobs to come back" and it's all Obama's fault they haven't but their job isn't coming back and it's nobodies fault but their own that they're unemployed. The mill has been dismantled. They're building a shopping mall where it used to stand. Maybe these guys should get a haircut, get some nice clothes and head over to REI and ask for a job.

I guess that's my frustration. I see tons of it on this board but it's no different than the idiots who blamed Bush for everything. Obama didn't steal your job. Obama isn't responsible for the economy. Obama isn't responsible for handing you a job.

That said, I stand by my assertion that we do a crappy job in this country of helping people retrain and get educated. That's what lifts people from poverty. Skills. It doesn't need to be a college degree either. My cousin is heading off to Linemans school. Auto Tech schools, Electricians are needed everywhere, etc. We should be making it easier for people to get a marketable career but instead our social programs make it much harder.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:39   #79
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lets see here, we have a dem pres and the dems had full control of congress yet we have a mess of a healthcare law-wall street is raking in- unemployment still above 7% with god knows how many completely gave up and no longer looking for work...yeah the dems sure love working class folk, thats why they handed out exemptions for obamacare to big business like candy yet put an anchor around the neck of the rest of us...moron
Nice talking points.

Tell me again why Mitt Romney paid 12% on his $20 Million in income.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:44   #80
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I believe that if we continue on the track we are on now, there will be no wealth divide. Everyone will be poor. The fact that the number of jobs are not going up and the pay for each individual job is going down can only mean that we end up at the low middle at best. There is too much generational welfare going on. Too many people on the public dole can only drag down society. Sooner or later each family is going to come to a tipping point where it is more cost effective to not work, than it is to try to keep working and support their own family plus the welfare system.

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I alluded to this problem in another thread.

What people don't get is that the uber wealthy have options that most of us don't. They can bleed this country dry and then just pick up and fly away on their private jets to any number of homes they own in other places. Their allegiance isn't to America anymore. It's to their elite class which they believe should rule the world.

Ultimately, it'll be them, living in walled in compounds in the nicest spots in the world, while the rest of us toil to support them.

Unless of course we wake the hell up.
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