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Old 10-15-2013, 11:51   #81
series1811
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I alluded to this problem in another thread.

What people don't get is that the uber wealthy have options that most of us don't. They can bleed this country dry and then just pick up and fly away on their private jets to any number of homes they own in other places. Their allegiance isn't to America anymore. It's to their elite class which they believe should rule the world.

Ultimately, it'll be them, living in walled in compounds in the nicest spots in the world, while the rest of us toil to support them.

Unless of course we wake the hell up.
Where was your tent located in Occupy Wall Street?

Do you think you are the first liberal to show up here, and start spouting off DU talking points? Don't y'all ever get tired of coming over here?

I guess not.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:58   #82
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spouting off DU talking points? .
I didn't realize Ducks Unlimited was such a political entity.

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Old 10-15-2013, 12:03   #83
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Where was your tent located in Occupy Wall Street?

Do you think you are the first liberal to show up here, and start spouting off DU talking points? Don't y'all ever get tired of coming over here?

I guess not.
The DU folks are just as clueless in many cases as folks like yourself who refuse to even examine the possibility that someone you disagree with might just be right.

Must be fun living in a world where you only see and hear what you want to but you only know what you see and hear.

Personally, I surround myself with people I don't agree with because I enjoy encountering new ideas and I often change my own stance on an issue.

Would it surprise you if I told you I used to be really conservative? I was never quite to the point some are on here but I was very conservative in many ways. Over the years, traveling, learning, meeting a very diverse group of smart people who challenged me to seek truth, I've become much more moderate on most issues and downright leftist on others. I'm still conservative on some though.

I tend to think for myself.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:06   #84
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Nice talking points.

Tell me again why Mitt Romney paid 12% on his $20 Million in income.
Generally speaking, it's probably because that 12% was the second time he paid taxes on that same money.

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Old 10-15-2013, 12:20   #85
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Generally speaking, it's probably because that 12% was the second time he paid taxes on that same money.
Actually it's not.

You obviously don't get how it works.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:23   #86
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I believe that if we continue on the track we are on now, there will be no wealth divide. Everyone will be poor. The fact that the number of jobs are not going up and the pay for each individual job is going down can only mean that we end up at the low middle at best. There is too much generational welfare going on. Too many people on the public dole can only drag down society. Sooner or later each family is going to come to a tipping point where it is more cost effective to not work, than it is to try to keep working and support their own family plus the welfare system.

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It's hard to ignore the amount of posts on this thread dealing with the economy. There are also a lot of posts that continue to look back at the Revolutionary war period. With these two topics at hand I would like to address the economic period during the start of our US government.

In the beginning there was not a welfare system. There were no government handouts. In fact, the government existed as a voice for the people, not as a babysitter.

Guess what, in these early days there was a great deal of poverty. Most people struggled and worked their fingers to the bone in order to provide for their families. When a family member or neighbor was in need the community helped these people, bit they did not prop up those unwilling to do their best to provide for themselves. The local churches also played a large part in serving those in need, but I am not going to start that discussion.

Am I saying that our welfare and other subsidy programs are a bad thing? Yes and no. The idea is great in theory and looks good on paper. The problem with our government handout comes at the price we are seeing today. People become dependant on handouts. This leads to people voting for politicians that will continue to give money to them while asking for nothing in return.

America has been called fat and lazy. This term infuriates me. Unfortunately many are. This Country was built on hard work, integrity, bravery, and a love for others. Today people feel an entitlement to have things in life that others do. This comes from an issue of greed and an overextenion of borrowing.

If you want a nice home, new car, and the latest technicalogical gadget you need to work and save. Food, shelter, and clothing should cone first in priority. If you can afford luxuries in life you do not need a handout. You need to learn how to manage and invest your hard earned pennies.

Have I pissed anyone off yet? If so you are likely a reason the Country is struggling at the moment.

Let me give you a small insight to my life. I grew up poor, and I am poor / middle class today. My father owned an auto body shop my whole life. As a teen I worked there to earn money. It was with my own money that I bought clothes, a car, insurance, etc. My dad did not and could not give me everything I asked for. I even remember times in which dinner consisted of beans that we ate in the candle light because we couldn't pay the power bill.

As an adult I learned a new trade, and later on I entered into the field of professional ministry as a pastor. I served in the capacity of a pastor for 12 years before deciding it was time to take a break. That break was both a blessing and a mistake.

I found it to be hard to find work in the secular field after a career of 12 years as a pastor. I hold a Master's degree, but that doesn't stop the judgements of employers.

My wife holds three degrees, one of which is an MBA. Guess what, she is out of work at the moment. That works out to some degree because her grandparents need someone to care for them.

There were a lot of negative things that got to my family and I emotionally. We had to get rid of the house we built. We had to leave a community we knew. We had to move in with family for a few weeks. Life sucked, but we held our heads high and moved forward.

Did I whine about the need to feed my family of four? Did I look for a handout or ask for help? No I didn't. I helped my dad around the shop when he had extra work I could do. I also utilized my talents. I am a musician and have been able to work as a session artist. This has led to a lot of great opportunities.

I didn't stop with these little aide jobs. My wife and I together have baked custom / designer cakes for a long time as a hobby. We decided to use that hobby and turn into a business. We are now constantly busy sculpting exotic birthday and wedding cakes.

The American spirit is not one that sits back and begs to have life handed to them. The American spirit finds a way and fights.

This took place 3 or 4 years ago. Today I don't drive new vehicles, but my wife's SUV and my truck were purchased with cash. My children are fed and clothed. We are making it without a socialist government stepping in.

OK, I'm finished with my rant for a moment.



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Old 10-15-2013, 12:35   #87
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It's hard to take anything seriously from someone who uses "alot" a lot.
It's hard to take anyone whose avatar is an ad hominem seriously.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:40   #88
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Nice talking points.

Tell me again why Mitt Romney paid 12% on his $20 Million in income.
most of his income is from investment and capital gains, legally...dont even tell me democraps arent doing the same thing including obama....because you earn alot of money doesnt mean everyone else is entitled to it too. Obama and his minions are hypocrites for not wanting to pay their fair share in obamacare to help the "poor"...DEMAND YOUR MESSIAH JOIN OBAMACARE
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:42   #89
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Actually it's not.

You obviously don't get how it works.
Yeah, unfortunately, I know exactly how it works. . I also take most of my current income from investments and capital gains. And I also give a significant amount to charities I support. Like Romney, who gave much more to charities, on a % of income basis, than Obama and Biden combined.
But that's typical of the lib breed. Spend the other guy's money.
Damn libs...always jealous of others' success, and always think it should be "shared" with them, somehow. Just to make things "fair" . I never asked others for a damn thing. I followed the rules...and yes, all the IRS rules... and still follow them. I made my own success. I worked my way through school and made the grades. Then I worked my way through school again for a graduate degree. Then I worked long, long hours and long weeks to get where I wanted to go. I did not come from an advantaged background. Go out and do the same. Anyone can if you're smart enough and driven enough. If you can't make it, then at the very least, quit whining about those that do. Have a little pride, for God's sake!

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Old 10-15-2013, 12:46   #90
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lets see here, we have a dem pres and the dems had full control of congress yet we have a mess of a healthcare law-wall street is raking in- unemployment still above 7% with god knows how many completely gave up and no longer looking for work...yeah the dems sure love working class folk, thats why they handed out exemptions for obamacare to big business like candy yet put an anchor around the neck of the rest of us...moron
When the Republicans took control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress we had full employment. Seven years later unemployment started going up. Eight years later we started into the worst economic times since the Great Depression. So far, the Republicans's only answer is more of the same policies that got us here in the first place.

What have the Republicans done for the working class or the middle class? They condemn the unemployed and want to cut off their unemployment. At the same time they want to deny them health care and cut taxes even more for wealthiest citizens even though taxes are the lowest since the Great Depression, which was also caused by Republicans. The Republicans need a new song. Another stanza of "Cut my taxes and screw you" isn't going to get them anywhere.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:56   #91
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It's hard to ignore the amount of posts on this thread dealing with the economy. There are also a lot of posts that continue to look back at the Revolutionary war period. With these two topics at hand I would like to address the economic period during the start of our US government.

In the beginning there was not a welfare system. There were no government handouts.
Actually, no. The government has been handing out Indian land (redistributing wealth) since we were part of England.
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Old 10-15-2013, 13:04   #92
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When the Republicans took control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress we had full employment. Seven years later unemployment started going up. Eight years later we started into the worst economic times since the Great Depression. So far, the Republicans's only answer is more of the same policies that got us here in the first place.

What have the Republicans done for the working class or the middle class? They condemn the unemployed and want to cut off their unemployment. At the same time they want to deny them health care and cut taxes even more for wealthiest citizens even though taxes are the lowest since the Great Depression, which was also caused by Republicans. The Republicans need a new song. Another stanza of "Cut my taxes and screw you" isn't going to get them anywhere.
The housing crash is firmly on the shoulders of democrats period, barney frank and dodd told us everything was A ok...the democrat plan is take from the doers and give it to the leach class, eventually you run out of other peoples money. Where are the jobs? You claim to be for the lil guy, making someone dependant on a handout enslaves them to poverty. How many years have the dems waged war on poverty? you are losing the battle dude.
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Old 10-15-2013, 13:06   #93
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Actually, no. The government has been handing out Indian land (redistributing wealth) since we were part of England.
That wasn't a redistribution of wealth, that was the complete takeover of the native people. England had a habit of conquering weak nations at one period in time. There was not only the US, but Australia, South Africa, etc.

I am not saying that the takeover of the Native American civilization was right, but we can't turn back time and correct that issue. The issue at hand today is the modern civilization of America. This is what we must focus on now.

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Old 10-15-2013, 13:54   #94
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The housing crash is firmly on the shoulders of democrats period, barney frank and dodd told us everything was A ok...
Two men did is all? You're really gullible.

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the democrat plan is take from the doers and give it to the leach class, eventually you run out of other peoples money. Where are the jobs?
What turned the "doers" into leaches? Did they suddenly decide to stop working in 2007 or did they loose their jobs through no fault of their own? You know, through some kind of Mitt Romney, Bain Capital sort of thing? Were they thrown to the wolves so some rich man could have another vacation home?

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You claim to be for the lil guy, making someone dependant on a handout enslaves them to poverty. How many years have the dems waged war on poverty?
I'm for a level playing field. No special privileges for special interests. Unlike you, I believe in my fellow Americans. I believe they will work if they have a chance to get ahead.

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you are losing the battle dude.
IIRC, your team keeps loosing the popular vote. The only reason Republicans still hold the House is because they stacked the deck.
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Old 10-15-2013, 14:14   #95
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Your point about ignoring empirical evidence is exactly the problem.

Conservatives and liberals both have been ignoring empirical evidence on a whole host of issues from Economics to Sociology. Not only that but we've seen it pan out in other places but for some reason they act as if economic policies which either work or don't work somehow behave differently here. It'd be the same argument one would make if they tried to say Gravity worked differently on the moon because the moon is smaller than the earth. Sure, there's less gravity, but the fundamental way it works is exactly the same, whether you're on Jupiter, or the moon.

There are lots of people sitting around on unemployment waiting for their job at the factory or whatever to come back. They're going to be waiting a long time because our unemployment problem is one of a structural nature. The jobs that were are no more and the new paradigm is completely different. It's exactly what happened here in Oregon when the timber industry crashed. People who'd worked in mills all their lives either re-trained and found another industry that paid well, or they ended up pumping gas for minimum wage.

So in my case, I read the tea leaves and decided to get something really useful but just generic enough that I can take it anywhere in the world and make a living. Lots of folks have that same idea but I'm smart, I'm a hard worker, and I have no doubt I'll be able to do fine.

But I still bump into people who haven't had a job since the last round of mill closures about 3 years ago. They hang around the gun store *****ing about Obama. They're waiting for "the jobs to come back" and it's all Obama's fault they haven't but their job isn't coming back and it's nobodies fault but their own that they're unemployed. The mill has been dismantled. They're building a shopping mall where it used to stand. Maybe these guys should get a haircut, get some nice clothes and head over to REI and ask for a job.

I guess that's my frustration. I see tons of it on this board but it's no different than the idiots who blamed Bush for everything. Obama didn't steal your job. Obama isn't responsible for the economy. Obama isn't responsible for handing you a job.

That said, I stand by my assertion that we do a crappy job in this country of helping people retrain and get educated. That's what lifts people from poverty. Skills. It doesn't need to be a college degree either. My cousin is heading off to Linemans school. Auto Tech schools, Electricians are needed everywhere, etc. We should be making it easier for people to get a marketable career but instead our social programs make it much harder.
There's a whole bunch of stuff there that is new to the discussion, so rather than chase the details of your thoughts around like trying to catch a chicken, I'll make a more general statement. I will not defend today's "liberals" nor today's "conservatives." I will however state that both parties are predominately made up of power hungry big government progressives that love the idea of government for government's sake. That's how they make their way in life of course. The battle is not between democrats and republicans, it is between Washington's facist liberal progressive control machine (much of both parties as stated) and the liberty movement of the individually responsible independent citizenry. Now which side the citizenry takes (the government control machine or liberty) is up to the individual to choose. We clearly know that prosperity and liberty for the citizenry of this nation as a whole can not be obtained by massive government intervention.

The reason Dear Leader is blamed for the economy is because he told the voters that he can make it better by controlling it more. We all know that has never worked. The crash of 1920-1921 (the depression nobody has ever heard of), during which the government and the Fed did very little to "stimulate the economy" (instead the budget and income taxes were cut drastically) is empirical evidence that attempted government stimulus of the economy only worsens things as we can see from 1929 and 2007. Perhaps the Keynesians (big government intervention) and the monetarists (small government intervention) are mistaken (although both theories can be advanced academically) since the results of their policies made slow economies last painfully long, and the Austrians (basically no government intervention) are correct. Empirical evidence would lead me to that conclusion that government intervention in the economy does not work, so when the economy sucks, whomever is trying to control it is at fault.
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Old 10-15-2013, 15:41   #96
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It's hard to take anyone whose avatar is an ad hominem seriously.
LOL!! I see you have a new avatar yourself! Did you finally get tired of people asking you why you had an avatar of you peeing on your shoes?
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Old 10-15-2013, 15:53   #97
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Two men did is all? You're really gullible. THE DEMOCRAT PARTY SLIM

What turned the "doers" into leaches? Did they suddenly decide to stop working in 2007 or did they loose their jobs through no fault of their own? You know, through some kind of Mitt Romney, Bain Capital sort of thing? Were they thrown to the wolves so some rich man could have another vacation home?
THE LEACH CLASS EXISTS NO MATTER WHAT THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE, COURTESY OF THE DEMOCRAT PARTY.
I'm for a level playing field. No special privileges for special interests. Unlike you, I believe in my fellow Americans. I believe they will work if they have a chance to get ahead.
I GUESS YOUR ONE OF THOSE BELIEVERS SOMEONE SHOULD EARN $20 DOING A NO SKILL JOB EH?

IIRC, your team keeps loosing the popular vote. The only reason Republicans still hold the House is because they stacked the deck. I WAS REFFERING TO THE WAR ON POVERTY, NOT ELECTIONS
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Old 10-15-2013, 16:01   #98
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Capitalism doesn't work any better in its "Pure" form than any other political or market theory.

If you pay any sort of tax then money is being redistributed. No tax is socioeconomically neutral. They all redistribute wealth. The question is do we take a bit more from those who can afford it and a bit less from those who can't so everyone can prosper? Or do we take less from those who don't need the money, shoulder the extra burden on those who are barely scraping by as is, and let the wealth accumulate at the top?

For roughly 30 years we've been trying the latter approach. It's contributed to completely gutting the middle class. We can continue this course, or we can go back to the way things were from about WWII till the late 80's when the top tax rates were much higher and the middle class was taxed much less.
Zero analysis of the GROWTH of big government in that time, regulations and central state planning. As well, capitalism in it's pure form? Where do we have anything like that now? Capitalism is MILLIONS of free souls engaging their talents and abilities and desires freely in the market place. That is far superior to socialism, say...
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Old 10-15-2013, 16:02   #99
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LOL!! I see you have a new avatar yourself! Did you finally get tired of people asking you why you had an avatar of you peeing on your shoes?
That's funny... I was one of many???
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Old 10-15-2013, 17:15   #100
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It's all a big mess, regardless of party. There's too much money involved.
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