GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-15-2013, 17:50   #101
engineer151515
_______________
 
engineer151515's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 20,091


Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
When the Republicans took control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress we had full employment. Seven years later unemployment started going up. Eight years later we started into the worst economic times since the Great Depression. So far, the Republicans's only answer is more of the same policies that got us here in the first place.

What have the Republicans done for the working class or the middle class? They condemn the unemployed and want to cut off their unemployment. At the same time they want to deny them health care and cut taxes even more for wealthiest citizens even though taxes are the lowest since the Great Depression, which was also caused by Republicans. The Republicans need a new song. Another stanza of "Cut my taxes and screw you" isn't going to get them anywhere.
Your revisionist history is laughable.

The only person I've seen denying health care is Obama appointee HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius.
__________________
A picture is worth a thousand words but you can't see what those shades of gray keep covered. You should have seen it in color. - Jamey Johnson - In Color
engineer151515 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:06   #102
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by snerd View Post
LOL!! I see you have a new avatar yourself! Did you finally get tired of people asking you why you had an avatar of you peeing on your shoes?
ad hominem

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:07   #103
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
When the Republicans took control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress we had full employment. Seven years later unemployment started going up. Eight years later we started into the worst economic times since the Great Depression. So far, the Republicans's only answer is more of the same policies that got us here in the first place.

What have the Republicans done for the working class or the middle class? They condemn the unemployed and want to cut off their unemployment. At the same time they want to deny them health care and cut taxes even more for wealthiest citizens even though taxes are the lowest since the Great Depression, which was also caused by Republicans. The Republicans need a new song. Another stanza of "Cut my taxes and screw you" isn't going to get them anywhere.
Okay...once again we have established that the republicans suck. When the democrats took over the Presidency and both houses of Congress we had high unemployment which immediately took off higher when the democrat progressive stimulus plan was passed. Five and a half years later the only thing that has brought the published unemployment rate down is the historically low worker participation rate. We have record numbers on food stamps, welfare, unemployment, WIC, gov cell phones, you name it. And the debt has increased by 6 or 7 trillion bucks from around 10 trillion. Fear not, we have 2-1/2 half more years to go. So tell me...how have the democrat progressives improved things over the republican progressives time in the box? What have the democrat progressives done for the working class or the middle class?? See any common theme there???

Last edited by Kablam; 10-15-2013 at 18:09..
Kablam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:08   #104
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
Your revisionist history is laughable.

The only person I've seen denying health care is Obama appointee HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius.
One more time, what have the Republicans done for the working class or the middle class?
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:11   #105
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,186
The republicans are not in power. They are irrelevant...you keep telling us that. It's up to the democrats.

Last edited by Kablam; 10-15-2013 at 18:12..
Kablam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:12   #106
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
Okay...once again we have established that the republicans suck. When the democrats took over the Presidency and both houses of Congress we had high unemplyment which immediately took off higher when the democrat progressive stimulus plan was passed. Five and a half years later the only thing that has brought the published unemployment rate down is the historically low worker participation rate. And the debt has increased by 6 or 7 trillion bucks from around 10 trillion. Fear not, we have 2-1/2 half more years to go. So tell me...how have the democrat progressives improved things over the republican progressives time in the box? See any common theme there??
How long did the Democrats control both houses of Congress? IIRC, it was less than two years. I don't agree with everything the Democrats do either, but what have the Republicans offered but more redistribution from the bottom to the top. We had full employment before the Bush tax cuts.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:14   #107
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
The republicans are not in power. They are irrelevant...you keep telling us that. It's up to the democrats.
What have they proposed to do for the working class and middle class?
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 18:23   #108
callihan_44
INFIDEL
 
callihan_44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Flyover,USA
Posts: 2,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
What have they proposed to do for the working class and middle class?
how about opening up the healthcare market to buy insurance where ever you want? how about making it easier to do business without getting strangled with new backdoor regs from the epa...your party is on the path to dependancy for america, the democrat party does not care about creating an enviroment that is business friendly.. how many green jobs tanked along with our tax dollars lib? get off the crack and get a job
callihan_44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 19:46   #109
frank4570
Feral human
 
frank4570's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cul Va
Posts: 16,674
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
What have they proposed to do for the working class and middle class?
Not running up the countries credit card bills up till we lose everything?
__________________
Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
frank4570 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 19:50   #110
engineer151515
_______________
 
engineer151515's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 20,091


Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
One more time, what have the Republicans done for the working class or the middle class?
Reagan and Bush tax breaks.

Both resulted in an economic boom. Increase in jobs. Kept me gainfully employed. Also increased tax revenues to the government.

Bush's cuts helped stave off the Al Gore denied dot.com bust and fallout from the 9/11/01 attacks.
__________________
A picture is worth a thousand words but you can't see what those shades of gray keep covered. You should have seen it in color. - Jamey Johnson - In Color

Last edited by engineer151515; 10-15-2013 at 19:51..
engineer151515 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 20:07   #111
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
What have they proposed to do for the working class and middle class?
You are so emotionally invested in convincing people that the democrat progressives suck less than the republican progressives that you completely missed my point. You believe that somehow democrat progressivism is better than republican progressivism. The democrats rallied against big government republicans, gained control, and then put those progressive policies on steroids. We now see the results. You believe that the struggle for prosperity lies in the battle between two parties that are actually two groups of big government progressives. It actually lies in the battle between the Washington establishment and the productive citizens that produce all the wealth in this nation. Crushing that group with a huge government liability has proven to suck the life out of our society. I'm not limiting it to the money either. The money is just the tool that the progressives use to buy votes to establish a dependent faction and a permanent voting block. We've seen that the producers will retreat and sit on their wealth when the government comes for more and more. That dependent faction, whom you profess to worry on, will suffer the most when the government, which produces nothing, runs out of money.
Kablam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 20:12   #112
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by callihan_44 View Post
how about opening up the healthcare market to buy insurance where ever you want? how about making it easier to do business without getting strangled with new backdoor regs from the epa...your party is on the path to dependancy for america, the democrat party does not care about creating an enviroment that is business friendly.. how many green jobs tanked along with our tax dollars lib? get off the crack and get a job
Ever been to China?

I have.

The factories run all day and night making cheap crap for people to buy. The waste gets dumped in the nearest convenient river.

I prefer to live where we have an EPA so I can enjoy my cabin on a river where I can fish and eat what I catch, in woods where I can go hunting and bag a deer or an elk.

In fact, if you do a bit of research on the factory farming in the midwest, you'll find that our EPA is actually falling down on the job. Those guys are going to turn the most fertile parts of our country into a wasteland if we don't change it.

Now you can tell me about your free market solution for the EPA.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 20:32   #113
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
Ever been to China?

I have.

The factories run all day and night making cheap crap for people to buy. The waste gets dumped in the nearest convenient river.

I prefer to live where we have an EPA so I can enjoy my cabin on a river where I can fish and eat what I catch, in woods where I can go hunting and bag a deer or an elk.

In fact, if you do a bit of research on the factory farming in the midwest, you'll find that our EPA is actually falling down on the job. Those guys are going to turn the most fertile parts of our country into a wasteland if we don't change it.

Now you can tell me about your free market solution for the EPA.
The issue is balance. We had bad air in the 60s and 70s in many industrial cities and regulation helped clean that up enormously. Cars are incredibly cleaner, power plants are orders of magnitude cleaner, the Love Canal is pretty much cleaned up. You remember all that correct? But squeezing the life out of industry for very little gain now is counter productive. Especially if the agency is being used to drive the coal and oil/gas business to ruin because the political agenda is to control the energy industry and appease the unrealistic goal of all green right now, for example. It's technical and economic cost benefit balance, not politics, that needs to be applied. Let the politicians shut down fossil fuel and nuclear electricity production with no viable alternative and watch what happens to jobs and the economy. Pragmatism needs to be the mantra.
Kablam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 20:50   #114
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
The issue is balance. We had bad air in the 60s and 70s in many industrial cities and regulation helped clean that up enormously. Cars are incredibly cleaner, power plants are orders of magnitude cleaner, the Love Canal is pretty much cleaned up. You remember all that correct? But squeezing the life out of industry for very little gain now is counter productive. Especially if the agency is being used to drive the coal and oil/gas business to ruin because the political agenda is to control the energy industry and appease the unrealistic goal of all green right now, for example. It's technical and economic cost benefit balance, not politics, that needs to be applied. Let the politicians shut down fossil fuel and nuclear electricity production with no viable alternative and watch what happens to jobs and the economy. Pragmatism needs to be the mantra.
I'm a huge proponent of Nuclear power. My best friend is a Nuclear Engineer.

We need a comprehensive approach to our energy policy but if you think the EPA is standing in the way of alternative energy you're only half right. Big Petroleum is the driving force behind the lawsuits which keep us from building windfarms, solar arrays, etc.

Additionally, all the neat-o power generation in the world doesn't help with our leaky, elderly power grid.

If you guys on the right want to get pissed about something, get pissed about oil companies pulling all our resources out of the ground and selling them on the open market and not giving us a dime.

We've got huge stores of natural gas and they're trying to get a pipeline built through my state and an LNG terminal at Coos Bay to ship it all overseas. Think any of us Americans will see a penny from it? It's our resources. We sure as hell should.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:04   #115
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Not running up the countries credit card bills up till we lose everything?
How? We don't have enough revenue to pay our bills and one of the only things Republicans stand for is not raising taxes, so how do we pay our bills without raising taxes or borrowing more money? Everyone touts the myth of cutting government, until it happens. Then everyone squalls. Cut the government, but not the part I use.

Our military budget is larger than the next next 14 largest military budgets in the world combined. Let's cut that by 90% (squall, squall, squall). Lets do away with the war on drugs and let people in prison for nothing but drug offenses out (squall, squall, squall). Let's re-privatize AMTRAK (squall, squall, squall).

Someone if going to have to take up a larger share of the revenue burden. I suggest we do all of the above and repeal the Bush tax cuts. That would put more people on the tax roles. Some of the 47% ( or whatever it is) of the people who don't pay taxes will. Clinton raised taxes on everyone making over $28,000 per year. I didn't like it at the time, but it helped bring us out of the economic mess caused by the Reagan/Bush 1 spending spree that was paid for with borrowed money. I don't see why that won't work again, but we would have to take an "all for one and one for all" attitude. As long as no one cares about anyone but themselves, all we can expect is more of the same.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:10   #116
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
How? We don't have enough revenue to pay our bills and one of the only things Republicans stand for is not raising taxes, so how do we pay our bills without raising taxes or borrowing more money? Everyone touts the myth of cutting government, until it happens. Then everyone squalls. Cut the government, but not the part I use.

Our military budget is larger than the next next 14 largest military budgets in the world combined. Let's cut that by 90% (squall, squall, squall). Lets do away with the war on drugs and let people in prison for nothing but drug offenses out (squall, squall, squall). Let's re-privatize AMTRAK (squall, squall, squall).

Someone if going to have to take up a larger share of the revenue burden. I suggest we do all of the above and repeal the Bush tax cuts. That would put more people on the tax roles. Some of the 47% ( or whatever it is) of the people who don't pay taxes will. Clinton raised taxes on everyone making over $28,000 per year. I didn't like it at the time, but it helped bring us out of the economic mess caused by the Reagan/Bush 1 spending spree that was paid for with borrowed money. I don't see why that won't work again, but we would have to take an "all for one and one for all" attitude. As long as no one cares about anyone but themselves, all we can expect is more of the same.
Reality... how does it work eh?

Everyone whines about debt and deficits but nobody wants to actually do anything.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:19   #117
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
Reagan and Bush tax breaks.

Both resulted in an economic boom. Increase in jobs. Kept me gainfully employed. Also increased tax revenues to the government.
No, they resulted in a economic bubble that eventually burst when we had to pay the price for living above our means. "It ain't hard to understand, if you wanna dance, you gota pay the band."

If cutting taxes causes an economic boom,, why did the economy collapse after decades of Reaganomics? The economy boomed in the short term because the country went on a spending spree on borrowed money. When it came time to pay it back we went into the worst recession since the the Great Depression. Then the Republicans had the audacity to blame Obama before he even took office, and some people claimed to believe that.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:26   #118
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
No, they resulted in a economic bubble that eventually burst when we had to pay the price for living above our means. "It ain't hard to understand, if you wanna dance, you gota pay the band."

If cutting taxes causes an economic boom,, why did the economy collapse after decades of Reaganomics? The economy boomed in the short term because the country went on a spending spree on borrowed money. When it came time to pay it back we went into the worst recession since the the Great Depression. Then the Republicans had the audacity to blame Obama before he even took office, and some people claimed to believe that.
Yeah, Bush/Greenspan really hosed us with their completely inappropriate handling of the prime rate all through the entire Bush admin. They created a situation where money was effectively free, which drove housing prices by keeping interest rates in the toilet.

Banks weren't making squat on investments so they turned to pushing refi's and mortgages.

Paul Krugman called it in 2006. He totally nailed it but nobody was listening.


EDIT: I'll add that they're effectively doing the exact same thing now, which is semi-appropriate given how sluggish the economy is, but if it picks up they better raise the prime rate.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...

Last edited by Mad Ryan; 10-15-2013 at 21:27..
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:32   #119
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
I'm a huge proponent of Nuclear power. My best friend is a Nuclear Engineer.

Me too. As I told you, I am also a nuclear engineer. Been doing it since the 70s...submarines, power and research reactors, medical isotope production, and some other things.

We need a comprehensive approach to our energy policy but if you think the EPA is standing in the way of alternative energy you're only half right. Big Petroleum is the driving force behind the lawsuits which keep us from building windfarms, solar arrays, etc.

I don't think the EPA is standing in the way of alternative energy. It think the politicians, using the EPA, the NRC, and other agencies have stood in the way of modernizing the fossil and nuclear energy production industries. Natural gas recovery is stifled. Off shore drilling and drilling on federal land is very much hindered as a result of political decisions. Inherently safe and more efficient nuclear plants have been held up in licensing for 30 years. That finally broke loose a little around 2005 or so. The Yucca Mountain project got zeroed out as soon as the present administration came into power. Not exactly a shot in the arm and a serious breach of contract on the government's part. Economics plays a big part in wind farms and such. The technology is not economically viable yet, and may never be unless fossil and nuclear prices sky rocket (seems that Obama promised exactly that).

Additionally, all the neat-o power generation in the world doesn't help with our leaky, elderly power grid.

I couldn't agree more.

If you guys on the right want to get pissed about something, get pissed about oil companies pulling all our resources out of the ground and selling them on the open market and not giving us a dime.

Is the government the answer to that, or the markets? I don't know, but I know what I prefer.

We've got huge stores of natural gas and they're trying to get a pipeline built through my state and an LNG terminal at Coos Bay to ship it all overseas. Think any of us Americans will see a penny from it? It's our resources. We sure as hell should.

See above.
I'm just trying to point out that government over regulation that is politically driven has some undesirable and profound effects on the economy. Again some balance needs to be applied when regulating industries.
Kablam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:35   #120
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
Yeah, Bush/Greenspan really hosed us with their completely inappropriate handling of the prime rate all through the entire Bush admin. They created a situation where money was effectively free, which drove housing prices by keeping interest rates in the toilet.

Banks weren't making squat on investments so they turned to pushing refi's and mortgages.

Paul Krugman called it in 2006. He totally nailed it but nobody was listening.

Krugman on the US housing bubble - YouTube

EDIT: I'll add that they're effectively doing the exact same thing now, which is semi-appropriate given how sluggish the economy is, but if it picks up they better raise the prime rate.
Thanks. I hadn't seen that. You're right. Krugman totally nailed it but nobody was listening. Unfortunately many of them still aren't.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:36   #121
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by callihan_44 View Post
how about opening up the healthcare market to buy insurance where ever you want? how about making it easier to do business without getting strangled with new backdoor regs from the epa...your party is on the path to dependancy for america, the democrat party does not care about creating an enviroment that is business friendly.. how many green jobs tanked along with our tax dollars lib? get off the crack and get a job
Can you be more specific?
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:39   #122
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kablam View Post
I'm just trying to point out that government over regulation that is politically driven has some undesirable and profound effects on the economy. Again some balance needs to be applied when regulating industries.
I'm going to be researching energy policy for a paper I have to write and I plan on looking into who owns what and how it got that way.

Some countries nationalize their minerals. Venezuela, Mexico just to name a couple. Oil companies get pissed when you do that, but it's usually a good thing for the folks who work there. I say usually because if you're a corrupt mess like Mexico it probably doesn't help much.

I just find it irritating that Exxon Mobil gets government subsidies to drill for oil, a non-renewable resource, under our soil, which they then sell for profit, which we see none of.

Feels like we're being screwed to me.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:40   #123
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Can you be more specific?
It's the "let people buy healthcare across state lines" argument.

It won't do squat to address the problems we had before the ACA but it's an answer.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 21:42   #124
Mad Ryan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sunny Southern Oregon
Posts: 1,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Thanks. I hadn't seen that. You're right. Krugman totally nailed it but nobody was listening. Unfortunately many of them still aren't.
Krugman is a good bit smarter than any of us I suspect.

Ironically, I pulled everything I had out of stocks in mid 2007. I placed part of it in a commodities fund that dealt in oil and left part liquid.

When the s**t hit the fan I bought back in. I only lost a tiny bit on the mineral fund and was able to make way more back with the other half once the thing started to rebound.

Oil is a safe bet for the foreseeable future.
__________________
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't...

Last edited by Mad Ryan; 10-15-2013 at 21:47..
Mad Ryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 22:00   #125
Kablam
Senior Member
 
Kablam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
I'm going to be researching energy policy for a paper I have to write and I plan on looking into who owns what and how it got that way.

Some countries nationalize their minerals. Venezuela, Mexico just to name a couple. Oil companies get pissed when you do that, but it's usually a good thing for the folks who work there. I say usually because if you're a corrupt mess like Mexico it probably doesn't help much.

I just find it irritating that Exxon Mobil gets government subsidies to drill for oil, a non-renewable resource, under our soil, which they then sell for profit, which we see none of.

Feels like we're being screwed to me.
Please share the results of your research. I'm interested. Particularly in long term effects on a large, diverse economy. I'd appreciate it if you would.
Kablam is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:01.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,378
391 Members
987 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42