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Old 10-22-2013, 22:52   #41
Mad Ryan
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Housing/mortgage problems began in the mid and late '70's. Values skyrocketed. Lenders were forced to make loans in declining areas due to anti-redlining laws. They were "persuaded" to give loans based on inflated values to previously unqualified borrowers. Those loans came back later to bite the market in the ass.

If you dared pre-qualify a buyer as a Realtor, as we were use to doing back then, and told the buyer they wouldn't qualify for the homes "they wanted to look at," you'd better be prepared for a visit from the discrimination investigators at HUD. This was especially true if your customer was a member of a minority group.

The laws and policies of the late '70s and early '80s were the beginning of "The American Dream", home ownership, transitioning from something you went out and worked for, that you earned the money to buy with, and accepted the responsibility for repaying the loan to the entitlement status people think it is today. No money down, low interest rates that let people buy more house than they should, and now programs that let borrowers walk away, even paying them to short sale their homes.

The 'housing bubble' was horrendous, but .gov started it, then did nothing to prevent lending institutions from following their lead. And the secondary mortgage market's incestuous relationship with originators and Wall Street...
I was going to point out that it was much more complicated than simply Dodd/Frank etc. but I think we can all agree that the FED providing free money and nobody doing anything at all to try and slow things down for the better part of the decade wasn't a good thing.
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Old 10-23-2013, 05:51   #42
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
Hilarious.

This isn't even close to true. As previously mentioned, I don't even like Obama but I dislike willful ignorance even more.
...........
President Bush

Debt end (2008) . . . . . . $10,024,724,896,912.40

Debt start (2001) . . . . . . $ 5,807,463,412,200.06


Total accumulated debt (8 years) $4,217,261,484,712.34



President Obama
Debt current Debt start Total debt (4 years)

Debt current (2012) . . . . . . $16,066,241,407,385.80

Debt start (2001) . . . . . . $ $10,024,724,896,912.40


Total accumulated debt (4 years = one administrative term, not two) $6,041,516,510,473.40

Average rate

Bush = . . . . . . $527,157,685,589.04 per year
Obama =. . . . $1,510,379,127,618.35per year

Ratio Obama Rate / Bush Rate = 2.865

I intended to express a doubled rate of spending. I did word it incorrectly - should have said twice as much or half the time but the combo is incorrect.

That stated, I present the numbers. This is actually the rate of debt accumulation - not spending. But, since Obama did continue the tax cuts for the rich, I presume tax rates are reasonably the same therefore, the debt increase represents the actual spending increase - within some margin of error. I'm sure the medical device tax, tanning bed tax and the cigarette tax increased were not numbers that would change this assumption much, relative to the debts involved. But I don't have the time to look all that up.

It remains that President Obama has exceeded that and more in his first term. He increased the debt more in 4 years than Bush did in 8. By a good margin. Not even rounding up.

This, coupled with the facts that Bush's last two years were with a Democrat Congress (spending push) and Obama had a Democrat super majority in both houses of Congress for his first two years (total party spending control).

Numbers source = www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_debt
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:01   #43
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We have had an accommodative Federal Reserve for some time now. Obama just nominated Janet Yellen to replace Bernanke. She promised to continue the easy money policy, so it continues. As Bush found out in 2008, a stock market drop can have disastrous consequences come election time. I doubt Obama will allow a market crash in 2014.

The economy was hardly "wrecked" when Bush left office in 2009. A recession is a normal part of the economic cycle, and the real unemployment rate is far higher now, as are the prices of gasoline, food, energy and almost anything else we can measure than it was in January 2009, when your hero took office. The economy is being battered by Obama's economic policies. If the media covered the story like they did in 2008 Obama would be hounded from office. Instead they cover up for him, still blame Bush, and continually make excuses as for why it's not Obama's fault. Where is that damn buck? It sure isn't stopping on Obama's desk. It must have slipped out the side window when nobody was looking.
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Old 10-23-2013, 08:13   #44
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Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
President Bush

Debt end (2008) . . . . . . $10,024,724,896,912.40

Debt start (2001) . . . . . . $ 5,807,463,412,200.06


Total accumulated debt (8 years) $4,217,261,484,712.34



President Obama
Debt current Debt start Total debt (4 years)

Debt current (2012) . . . . . . $16,066,241,407,385.80

Debt start (2001) . . . . . . $ $10,024,724,896,912.40


Total accumulated debt (4 years = one administrative term, not two) $6,041,516,510,473.40

Average rate

Bush = . . . . . . $527,157,685,589.04 per year
Obama =. . . . $1,510,379,127,618.35per year

Ratio Obama Rate / Bush Rate = 2.865

I intended to express a doubled rate of spending. I did word it incorrectly - should have said twice as much or half the time but the combo is incorrect.

That stated, I present the numbers. This is actually the rate of debt accumulation - not spending. But, since Obama did continue the tax cuts for the rich, I presume tax rates are reasonably the same therefore, the debt increase represents the actual spending increase - within some margin of error. I'm sure the medical device tax, tanning bed tax and the cigarette tax increased were not numbers that would change this assumption much, relative to the debts involved. But I don't have the time to look all that up.

It remains that President Obama has exceeded that and more in his first term. He increased the debt more in 4 years than Bush did in 8. By a good margin. Not even rounding up.

This, coupled with the facts that Bush's last two years were with a Democrat Congress (spending push) and Obama had a Democrat super majority in both houses of Congress for his first two years (total party spending control).

Numbers source = www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_debt
One of the things you're neglecting is that Bush had control over his spending levels while Obama doesn't. He inherited his budget levels for FY 2008 from the previous administration and has actually been decreasing deficits since then.

You're also not mentioning the Recession which caused the debt to spike at the tail end of Bush II and continue to spike under Obama. This is purely unavoidable.

Lying is lying, even if it's just not telling the whole truth.

We'll neglect the fact that Obama hasn't the power to spend any money under the constitution without it first being appropriated by the congress. I know you don't care about that.

In most respects Obama is really just Bush 2.0
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:21   #45
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
One of the things you're neglecting is that Bush had control over his spending levels while Obama doesn't. He inherited his budget levels for FY 2008 from the previous administration and has actually been decreasing deficits since then.

You're also not mentioning the Recession which caused the debt to spike at the tail end of Bush II and continue to spike under Obama. This is purely unavoidable.

Lying is lying, even if it's just not telling the whole truth.

We'll neglect the fact that Obama hasn't the power to spend any money under the constitution without it first being appropriated by the congress. I know you don't care about that.

In most respects Obama is really just Bush 2.0
Dems controlled both house and senate the last two years of Bush's term and the first two of Obama's.
And don't forget about this.



Both sides suck, but you're doing what you complain others here do
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:29   #46
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Originally Posted by fortyofforty View Post
I'm not really a fan of Bush but some people just go full retard whenever anything goes wrong and blame it on him. Cracks me up.

Your admission that sufferers of BDS and ODS are cut from the exact same cloth is refreshing. Most will not admit they possess the exact same traits they mocked just a few years prior (or later).
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:40   #47
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Your admission that sufferers of BDS and ODS are cut from the exact same cloth is refreshing. Most will not admit they possess the exact same traits they mocked just a few years prior (or later).
My use of sarcasm was apparently too sophisticated for you to comprehend. Perhaps this is more your speed.
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Old 10-23-2013, 09:51   #48
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
One of the things you're neglecting is that Bush had control over his spending levels while Obama doesn't. He inherited his budget levels for FY 2008 from the previous administration and has actually been decreasing deficits since then.

You're also not mentioning the Recession which caused the debt to spike at the tail end of Bush II and continue to spike under Obama. This is purely unavoidable.

Lying is lying, even if it's just not telling the whole truth.

We'll neglect the fact that Obama hasn't the power to spend any money under the constitution without it first being appropriated by the congress. I know you don't care about that.

In most respects Obama is really just Bush 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
President Bush

Debt end (2008) . . . . . . $10,024,724,896,912.40

Debt start (2001) . . . . . . $ 5,807,463,412,200.06


Total accumulated debt (8 years) $4,217,261,484,712.34



President Obama
Debt current Debt start Total debt (4 years)

Debt current (2012) . . . . . . $16,066,241,407,385.80

Debt start (2001) . . . . . . $ $10,024,724,896,912.40


Total accumulated debt (4 years = one administrative term, not two) $6,041,516,510,473.40

Average rate

Bush = . . . . . . $527,157,685,589.04 per year
Obama =. . . . $1,510,379,127,618.35per year

Ratio Obama Rate / Bush Rate = 2.865

I intended to express a doubled rate of spending. I did word it incorrectly - should have said twice as much or half the time but the combo is incorrect.

That stated, I present the numbers. This is actually the rate of debt accumulation - not spending. But, since Obama did continue the tax cuts for the rich, I presume tax rates are reasonably the same therefore, the debt increase represents the actual spending increase - within some margin of error. I'm sure the medical device tax, tanning bed tax and the cigarette tax increased were not numbers that would change this assumption much, relative to the debts involved. But I don't have the time to look all that up.

It remains that President Obama has exceeded that and more in his first term. He increased the debt more in 4 years than Bush did in 8. By a good margin. Not even rounding up.

This, coupled with the facts that Bush's last two years were with a Democrat Congress (spending push) and Obama had a Democrat super majority in both houses of Congress for his first two years (total party spending control).

Numbers source = www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_debt
Once again the American politician is smiling from ear to ear.

This argument is the equivalent of saying one pedophile is "better' than the other because he raped half as many children.

Bush and Obama are the 1-2 punch which true objective historians will see as the presidents who oversaw the point of no return.
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Old 10-23-2013, 10:58   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
One of the things you're neglecting is that Bush had control over his spending levels while Obama doesn't.

So, Bush had control with respect to the impact of the 9/11 attacks and a two country war?


He inherited his budget levels for FY 2008 from the previous administration and has actually been decreasing deficits since then.

It is four years past that point. President Obama has never reduced deficit spending to the levels of the Bush years. Decreasing deficits are only measured against his own unsustainable spending levels.



You're also not mentioning the Recession which caused the debt to spike at the tail end of Bush II and continue to spike under Obama. This is purely unavoidable.


That mortgage lending crisis. Yeah - we've covered that one. Repeatedly.

Lying is lying, even if it's just not telling the whole truth.

Your name calling only degrades your own point. Try it with a preschooler. Might work more effectively.

We'll neglect the fact that Obama hasn't the power to spend any money under the constitution without it first being appropriated by the congress. I know you don't care about that.

Bush had the same problem in his last two years with a Democrat Congress


In most respects Obama is really just Bush 2.0
On steroids
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Old 10-23-2013, 11:00   #50
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Originally Posted by pugman View Post
Once again the American politician is smiling from ear to ear.

This argument is the equivalent of saying one pedophile is "better' than the other because he raped half as many children.

Bush and Obama are the 1-2 punch which true objective historians will see as the presidents who oversaw the point of no return.
I see a big difference in scale.
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Old 10-23-2013, 17:10   #51
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My comments in red





On steroids
Bush had absolutely no reason to start a war in Iraq. None. He also pushed Medicare Part D and a set of tax cuts for people who didn't need them.

Any way you slice it Bush cooked the books to get us into Iraq. The people who provided the intel which was in some cases wrong and in some cases absolutely fabricated to congress were Bush appointees.

The two wars, one he arguably didn't start and one he definitely did, as well as the legislation he signed added trillions to the debt and will continue to ad more long after even Obama is gone.

But then all we care about is partisan BS right?
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Old 10-23-2013, 18:15   #52
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
The two wars, one he arguably didn't start and one he definitely did, as well as the legislation he signed added trillions to the debt and will continue to ad more long after even Obama is gone.

But then all we care about is partisan BS right?
"Arguably didn't start"? Seriously? I wonder how old you were in 2001, if you even remember the attacks.

As for Iraq, multiple intelligence agencies from different countries, not just ours, came to the same conclusion. Iraq had WMDs. Saddam was violating the cease fire agreement, regularly and repeatedly. He was not allowing free and unfettered access by weapons inspection teams in Iraq. He allowed the attempted murder of American pilots, with missile launches on our aircraft enforcing the United Nations-mandated No Fly Zones. Saddam attempted to murder former President George H.W. Bush. And thousands of Iraqi children were dying due to the U.N. sanctions, which many countries favored ending. Saddam was using these deaths for leverage to force the sanctions to be lifted, which was close to happening.

Saddam declared war on the United States, by his actions. We took him up on it. He miscalculated because it was not a weak Democrat in the White House. He lost, and he paid with his life.

If you miss the rape rooms (I'm sure Bill Clinton can relate), the torture, the gassing of entire villages, the murder of innocent people carried out by Saddam and his evil regime, Uday and Qusay and their murderous activities, that says much about you and your selective morality.
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Old 10-23-2013, 18:41   #53
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He was an evil dictator, but he only really posed a direct threat to nations nearby. He had an active weapons development program, and had weapons of mass destruction. We know it for sure because his country used them already, so he had access to them or the capability to make them again. Certainly, we know he used poison gas on his own people, and committed genocide. He did not have the missiles with the reach to directly attack the United States, but was working on them, and he did not yet possess nuclear weapons. Many people were sent to prison camps, tortured, or summarily executed. He launched unprovoked attacks on his neighbors, and sought domination of the whole region. But truly he posed no threat to the United States so we should never have attacked his country.

Oh, wait, that’s Hitler. Feel that way about the Second World War, too, or are you logically inconsistent in your viewpoints?
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Old 10-24-2013, 06:38   #54
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Bush had absolutely no reason to start a war in Iraq. None.

Partisan comment


He also pushed Medicare Part D

No, Ted Kennedy (D) push it early in Bush's first term. Bush was trying to show bi-partianship effort. You know, the very compromise that is claimed to be lacking today. I remember it very well, commenting what a mistake he was making trying to work with the Democrats on a Democrat initiative in the interests of striking a tone for his first administration

and a set of tax cuts for people who didn't need them.

Partisan comment. People can always pay as much in taxes as they want. There is no government imposed upper limit. Just write them a check.

Any way you slice it Bush cooked the books to get us into Iraq. The people who provided the intel which was in some cases wrong and in some cases absolutely fabricated to congress were Bush appointees.

Partisan comment


The two wars, one he arguably didn't start and one he definitely did, as well as the legislation he signed added trillions to the debt and will continue to ad more long after even Obama is gone.

So, Obama was wrong. Elections don't have consequences after all. Obama didn't renew the Bush era tax cuts. And Obama's signature on the last 5 budgets meant nothing. Oh, wait . . . there hasn't been 5 previous budgets approved by Congress! Obama's budgets didn't even get Democrat support. Hmmm.


But then all we care about is partisan BS right?
Apparently, we are partisan. Except I bring the data. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion regardless of what the data presents.
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Old 10-24-2013, 11:46   #55
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"Arguably didn't start"? Seriously? I wonder how old you were in 2001, if you even remember the attacks.

As for Iraq, multiple intelligence agencies from different countries, not just ours, came to the same conclusion. Iraq had WMDs. Saddam was violating the cease fire agreement, regularly and repeatedly. He was not allowing free and unfettered access by weapons inspection teams in Iraq. He allowed the attempted murder of American pilots, with missile launches on our aircraft enforcing the United Nations-mandated No Fly Zones. Saddam attempted to murder former President George H.W. Bush. And thousands of Iraqi children were dying due to the U.N. sanctions, which many countries favored ending. Saddam was using these deaths for leverage to force the sanctions to be lifted, which was close to happening.

Saddam declared war on the United States, by his actions. We took him up on it. He miscalculated because it was not a weak Democrat in the White House. He lost, and he paid with his life.

If you miss the rape rooms (I'm sure Bill Clinton can relate), the torture, the gassing of entire villages, the murder of innocent people carried out by Saddam and his evil regime, Uday and Qusay and their murderous activities, that says much about you and your selective morality.
I had just EAS'd from the Marine Corps. I remember the attacks quite well. I was on my way to work that morning when the first plane hit. When we got there they told us to just go home. Closed for the day.

So I headed over to my folks house instead cause I don't have cable (never have) and my mom and I watched the towers fall.

You can try and justify the war in Iraq all you want. The fact remains that it was completely inappropriate and honestly, arguably illegal seeing as the premise we used to go to war was fabricated.

Horrible things go on all over the world. I saw lots of them while I was on active duty. We don't get to arbitrarily decide to just invade sovereign nations and "correct" them as we see fit.

Then there's the regional politics part. Saddam was a bad guy. Nobody disagrees with that, but Iran is a much bigger threat, and Saddam being in power kept Iran from being able to pursue their goals with impunity. We did them a huge favor by going in, removing Saddam, and tearing up the whole country while removing the Sunni minority from power. Gave them a ready-made puppet state on their border to take over subversively.

But don't let reality get in the way of your flag waving and bulls**t. One of my best friends was one of the first guys killed on the ground in Iraq. I'm sure his family are super glad we went in to "liberate" all those Iraqis. I'm sure the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis are glad too.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:00   #56
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I had just EAS'd from the Marine Corps. I remember the attacks quite well. I was on my way to work that morning when the first plane hit. When we got there they told us to just go home. Closed for the day.

So I headed over to my folks house instead cause I don't have cable (never have) and my mom and I watched the towers fall.
Glad you still remember. Sometimes it seems you don't, such as when you say "arguably".

Quote:
You can try and justify the war in Iraq all you want. The fact remains that it was completely inappropriate and honestly, arguably illegal seeing as the premise we used to go to war was fabricated.
You seem to think we only can have one reason to go to war. The situation was much more complicated than that. However, the final straw was certainly the fear that Saddam would either use or hand to terrorist groups those weapons of mass destruction that he most certainly had, shortly before the invasion.

Quote:
Horrible things go on all over the world. I saw lots of them while I was on active duty. We don't get to arbitrarily decide to just invade sovereign nations and "correct" them as we see fit.
Actually, yes we do. Because we cannot act everywhere does not mean we can act nowhere. It is a common argument used by leftists who seem to forget morality when it suits them, and pull it out of their backsides when it helps their case.

Quote:
Then there's the regional politics part. Saddam was a bad guy. Nobody disagrees with that, but Iran is a much bigger threat, and Saddam being in power kept Iran from being able to pursue their goals with impunity. We did them a huge favor by going in, removing Saddam, and tearing up the whole country while removing the Sunni minority from power. Gave them a ready-made puppet state on their border to take over subversively.
We did a big favor to the thousands of Kuwaitis, Saudis, Israelis, Jordanians and Kurds living under the constant threat of Iraqi attack, too. Again, because we can't act everywhere does not mean we cannot act anywhere. It's a simple concept.

Quote:
But don't let reality get in the way of your flag waving and bulls**t. One of my best friends was one of the first guys killed on the ground in Iraq. I'm sure his family are super glad we went in to "liberate" all those Iraqis. I'm sure the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis are glad too.
If one of your best friends was one of the first guys killed on the ground on Iwo Jima, his parents would be equally justified in wondering why we had to invade a tiny island in the middle of the Pacific. The purpose of the invasion was noble. Sometimes all we can do is liberate a country and help the people have the chance at a better life. We can help and guide, but we don't take over and run things ourselves forever. It's not what we do. If they make poor choices, or if we fail to follow through (as is happening now under your beloved leader), bad things can happen.

We needed no "excuse" to go to war. Saddam was living under the United Nations ceasefire agreement he agreed to. Saddam violated that agreement. That, all by itself, is enough to restart hostilities. Saddam tried to kill our pilots. As far as I'm concerned, at the first SAM launch the air assault would have begun.

Finally, forgive me for not believing you about your military service or your "friend" who was killed. On the internet, it's quite easy to invent yourself and your autobiography to bolster your arguments. They must, of necessity, stand on their own, and be logically consistent. Yours are not. Good try, though.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:07   #57
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Glad you still remember. Sometimes it seems you don't, such as when you say "arguably".



You seem to think we only can have one reason to go to war. The situation was much more complicated than that. However, the final straw was certainly the fear that Saddam would either use or hand to terrorist groups those weapons of mass destruction that he most certainly had, shortly before the invasion.



Actually, yes we do. Because we cannot act everywhere does not mean we can act nowhere. It is a common argument used by leftists who seem to forget morality when it suits them, and pull it out of their backsides when it helps their case.



We did a big favor to the thousands of Kuwaitis, Saudis, Israelis, Jordanians and Kurds living under the constant threat of Iraqi attack, too. Again, because we can't act everywhere does not mean we cannot act anywhere. It's a simple concept.



If one of your best friends was one of the first guys killed on the ground on Iwo Jima, his parents would be equally justified in wondering why we had to invade a tiny island in the middle of the Pacific. The purpose of the invasion was noble. Sometimes all we can do is liberate a country and help the people have the chance at a better life. We can help and guide, but we don't take over and run things ourselves forever. It's not what we do. If they make poor choices, or if we fail to follow through (as is happening now under your beloved leader), bad things can happen.

We needed no "excuse" to go to war. Saddam was living under the United Nations ceasefire agreement he agreed to. Saddam violated that agreement. That, all by itself, is enough to restart hostilities. Saddam tried to kill our pilots. As far as I'm concerned, at the first SAM launch the air assault would have begun.

Finally, forgive me for not believing you about your military service or your "friend" who was killed. On the internet, it's quite easy to invent yourself and your autobiography to bolster your arguments. They must, of necessity, stand on their own, and be logically consistent. Yours are not. Good try, though.
lol... You'll excuse me if I redacted a bit of the personal information out.

Political Issues

I can see we don't agree on the role the US should play in the world. I don't think we should exercise military power like a sledge hammer unless we legitimately need to. Then it should be absolutely overwhelming and we should accomplish our objective and leave.

Afghanistan should have been done differently. We should have rolled through there like a biblical plague. Killed everyone involved with Al Qaeda and then left.

We shouldn't have had anything at all to do with Iraq.

Trillions of dollars pissed away, thousands of American lives for nothing. The country is in much worse shape now in many cases than it was. But I can see you feel the need to justify the actions of "your guy" rather than thoughtfully questioning things which is IMO the patriotic path.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:25   #58
fortyofforty
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I can see we don't agree on the role the US should play in the world. I don't think we should exercise military power like a sledge hammer unless we legitimately need to. Then it should be absolutely overwhelming and we should accomplish our objective and leave.

Afghanistan should have been done differently. We should have rolled through there like a biblical plague. Killed everyone involved with Al Qaeda and then left.

We shouldn't have had anything at all to do with Iraq.

Trillions of dollars pissed away, thousands of American lives for nothing. The country is in much worse shape now in many cases than it was. But I can see you feel the need to justify the actions of "your guy" rather than thoughtfully questioning things which is IMO the patriotic path.
Again, it doesn't matter to me whether you served or not. Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, and I'd hardly point to him or his Socialist opinions as a model. Not everyone who served is or was a true patriot, and some have little understanding of foreign policy or the complexities therein.

I await your explanation of why attacking Nazi Germany was different from attacking Iraq, if you think it was. I am interested to hear your viewpoint.
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Old 10-24-2013, 12:27   #59
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Again, it doesn't matter to me whether you served or not. Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine, and I'd hardly point to him or his Socialist opinions as a model. Not everyone who served is or was a true patriot, and some have little understanding of foreign policy or the complexities therein.

I await your explanation of why attacking Nazi Germany was different from attacking Iraq, if you think it was. I am interested to hear your viewpoint.
Attacking Nazi Germany was obviously quite different.

So let me get this straight. Your litmus test for being a "Patriot" is whether someone agrees with you?

Did you serve? Have you ever put on a uniform in service to our country?

Blindly following your leader isn't Patriotism. It's collusion.
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Old 10-24-2013, 13:15   #60
fortyofforty
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Attacking Nazi Germany was obviously quite different.

So let me get this straight. Your litmus test for being a "Patriot" is whether someone agrees with you?

Did you serve? Have you ever put on a uniform in service to our country?

Blindly following your leader isn't Patriotism. It's collusion.
You are the first one who used the term "patriot". I don't have a litmus test for being a patriot. I believe I've been in more dangerous situations in the service of my country than you have, so I have nothing to fear from that comparison.

And, again, why was attacking Nazi Germany "obviously quite different"? Why, specifically?
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