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Old 10-25-2013, 02:09   #21
Stubudd
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I was in no way justifying their means. I was just pointing out that a couple hundred years ago, the European colonial powers came in, killed thousands or tens of thousands of Africans. Claimed the mineral rights of Africa, and basically doomed the entire continent to abject poverty because they can't make use of their own wealth.

Had this not happened, most people who study such things agree that Africa would be much different. They'd have a thriving middle class and actual wealth like the Western world has had at times and arguably still does.

When you treat people like animals they tend to live up to your expectations.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:32   #22
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Well, they screw everyone who actually theoretically "owns" the stuff, that is, the people who live there, and whose land the oil company is pumping the nonrenewable resource out of.

They pay their execs, shareholders, all our elected officials, etc.

So the common folks get "laid" and the rich folks or the folks who are worth bribing get "paid"

Makes sense right?
They pay the local strongman/government/mafia/ruling tribe/state who claims the territory and has the guns to enforce their claim Ryan. That is what government is.

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Old 10-25-2013, 05:19   #23
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Not to derail the testosterone drenched jerk fest that this will soon become, but...

These countries that the pirates hail from. Nigeria for instance. Are in many cases incredibly "Wealthy" countries in terms of natural resources. Nigeria has gobs of oil. Unfortunately, the people who actually live there are doomed to live in abject poverty because Oil companies come in, pump the oil out, and leave and they don't get a penny.

Can you really blame them?

The piracy has been going on for a long time in that part of the world, but the poor bastards with the AK's sure didn't start it.
So why are you not over there giving these poor bastards everything you own and working to help them?
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:50   #24
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Not to derail the testosterone drenched jerk fest that this will soon become, but...

These countries that the pirates hail from. Nigeria for instance. Are in many cases incredibly "Wealthy" countries in terms of natural resources. Nigeria has gobs of oil. Unfortunately, the people who actually live there are doomed to live in abject poverty because Oil companies come in, pump the oil out, and leave and they don't get a penny.

Can you really blame them?

The piracy has been going on for a long time in that part of the world, but the poor bastards with the AK's sure didn't start it.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:22   #25
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Fully unleash the U.S. Navy and Marines to deal with the problem.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:25   #26
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You might want to look into the colonial history of Africa and revise your statement.

The "deals" were cut when countries like France, Belgium, England, etc. had armies they used to come in, kill/subvert the local tribes, and then the oil companies and other folks came in and claimed the mineral rights.
The local folks had zero say in it.
Ever.
I don't need a lesson on colonial history, I'm well aware of it. That has nothing to do with current events and does not make it ok to loot and steal whether your in Africa or in the United States of America.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:35   #27
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I don't need a lesson on colonial history, I'm well aware of it. That has nothing to do with current events and does not make it ok to loot and steal whether your in Africa or in the United States of America.
Ahh, but it's exactly the point.

Europe went in and looted and stole the wealth from the continent a couple hundred years ago.

What are the millions of people in Africa supposed to do to generate wealth now? They have no resources to tap.

To the rest of the folks quoting BS and capitalism and all that.

Sure, lots of African nations got their independence in the last relatively few decades. But they've got nothing to build an economy with. No basis for building a middle class.

This isn't rocket science. Without access to your own assets you can't get ahead.

Since when did a bunch of "free market" capitalists become apologists for imperialism and the rape of Africa?

Logical consistency... It's what's evidently not for breakfast in Conservative America.
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Old 10-25-2013, 09:39   #28
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Clarify for them: "You board my boat, I shoot you !" ....

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Old 10-25-2013, 11:04   #29
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Ahh, but it's exactly the point.

Europe went in and looted and stole the wealth from the continent a couple hundred years ago.

What are the millions of people in Africa supposed to do to generate wealth now? They have no resources to tap.

To the rest of the folks quoting BS and capitalism and all that.

Sure, lots of African nations got their independence in the last relatively few decades. But they've got nothing to build an economy with. No basis for building a middle class.

This isn't rocket science. Without access to your own assets you can't get ahead.

Since when did a bunch of "free market" capitalists become apologists for imperialism and the rape of Africa?

Logical consistency... It's what's evidently not for breakfast in Conservative America.
I think your on the right track but.......


I think with a little research you'll learn that Africa still has plenty of gold. That's why the French were in Mali and why the US was about to help. Maybe they did covertly, no way to know.

Most of the pirates of the 17th and 18th century were privateers, subsidized by their respective crowns to loot South America and disrupt Spanish freight and steal the gold Spain was shipping home from South and Central America. African pirates are of a different sort than colonial pirates.

The Middle East has had its resources looted by western nations as well. More so than Africa. But you don't see pirates with turbans roaming the seas. There is another dynamic to this pirate situation.





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Old 10-25-2013, 11:06   #30
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Old 10-25-2013, 11:53   #31
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
Ahh, but it's exactly the point.

Europe went in and looted and stole the wealth from the continent a couple hundred years ago.

What are the millions of people in Africa supposed to do to generate wealth now? They have no resources to tap.

To the rest of the folks quoting BS and capitalism and all that.

Sure, lots of African nations got their independence in the last relatively few decades. But they've got nothing to build an economy with. No basis for building a middle class.

This isn't rocket science. Without access to your own assets you can't get ahead.

Since when did a bunch of "free market" capitalists become apologists for imperialism and the rape of Africa?

Logical consistency... It's what's evidently not for breakfast in Conservative America.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:01   #32
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Originally Posted by Mad Ryan View Post
Ahh, but it's exactly the point.

Europe went in and looted and stole the wealth from the continent a couple hundred years ago.

What are the millions of people in Africa supposed to do to generate wealth now? They have no resources to tap.

To the rest of the folks quoting BS and capitalism and all that.

Sure, lots of African nations got their independence in the last relatively few decades. But they've got nothing to build an economy with. No basis for building a middle class.

This isn't rocket science. Without access to your own assets you can't get ahead.

Since when did a bunch of "free market" capitalists become apologists for imperialism and the rape of Africa?

Logical consistency... It's what's evidently not for breakfast in Conservative America.
There is still immense natural wealth across much of Africa . This wealth stays in the hands of the ruling elite like I explained to you. Your view of African history is faulty and your view of modern African society and politics is faultier. Oil and mineral wealth flows into the hands of African leaders of each country, and these leaders are typically members of the tribal elite. The majority of what trickles down will usually stay within the tribal structure. Education, infrastructure, health concerns...all secondary priorities and, when addressed, are typically addressed in a way that benefits the tribe of the ruling elite in a given country first. That's where the loyalties and allegiances lie.
I've traveled there. I've talked at length to guides, outfitters and the men who work for them. I've seen how those countries work first hand. No wealth left? LOL...there's plenty of "wealth" left, it's simply hoarded by the ruling elite, their families, their tribal brothers, and their families. They generally don't care about whoever is left. They live in expansive houses, wear Saville Row suits, are chauffeured around in Mercedes limos, have servants and guards everywhere, and send their kids to foreign universities. That's why, in virtually every African country, there are relief agencies working in every corner. That's why, in virtually every African country, there is a revolutionary movement out in the bush. They are not all necessarily well-organized or funded, but there is almost always a faction willing to take up arms. The hunting guides and their concessions are usually pretty much left alone (although not always), because they generate cash flow for the leadership. The biggest problem is rebels in trucks driving though the bush shooting everything they see with AK47s. They'll take ivory and rhino horn, but everything else they just enjoy seeing it die.

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Old 10-25-2013, 12:27   #33
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I think your on the right track but.......


I think with a little research you'll learn that Africa still has plenty of gold. That's why the French were in Mali and why the US was about to help. Maybe they did covertly, no way to know.

Most of the pirates of the 17th and 18th century were privateers, subsidized by their respective crowns to loot South America and disrupt Spanish freight and steal the gold Spain was shipping home from South and Central America. African pirates are of a different sort than colonial pirates.

The Middle East has had its resources looted by western nations as well. More so than Africa. But you don't see pirates with turbans roaming the seas. There is another dynamic to this pirate situation.





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First off, much of the Middle East is landlocked. Second, lots of the countries in the middle east did retain their oil rights. Saudi Arabia anyone? OPEC anyone?

Africa is a completely different ball of wax.

Also, to the gen-pop in this forum who are opining on this thread. I get it... You think somehow the reason Africa is a complete s**t hole is because it's full of, well, Africans.

I mean, it's true that there are huge problems in their social and governmental structure in most of the continent. You can't find a government official in Nigeria, from the local dog catcher to the leaders of the country who's not on the take. I get it.

But that doesn't neglect the fact that the leading indicator of social stability is economic stability and Africa has never had this. Ever. Period. Because Europeans came in hundreds of years ago and claimed their resources.
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:28   #34
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There is still immense natural wealth across much of Africa . This wealth stays in the hands of the ruling elite like I explained to you. Your view of African history is faulty and your view of modern African society and politics is faultier. Oil and mineral wealth flows into the hands of African leaders of each country, and these leaders are typically members of the tribal elite. The majority of what trickles down will usually stay within the tribal structure. Education, infrastructure, health concerns...all secondary priorities and, when addressed, are typically addressed in a way that benefits the tribe of the ruling elite in a given country first. That's where the loyalties and allegiances lie.
I've traveled there. I've talked at length to guides, outfitters and the men who work for them. I've seen how those countries work first hand. No wealth left? LOL...there's plenty of "wealth" left, it's simply hoarded by the ruling elite, their families, their tribal brothers, and their families. They generally don't care about whoever is left. They live in expansive houses, wear Saville Row suits, are chauffeured around in Mercedes limos, have servants and guards everywhere, and send their kids to foreign universities. That's why, in virtually every African country, there are relief agencies working in every corner. That's why, in virtually every African country, there is a revolutionary movement out in the bush. They are not all necessarily well-organized or funded, but there is almost always a faction willing to take up arms. The hunting guides and their concessions are usually pretty much left alone (although not always), because they generate cash flow for the leadership. The biggest problem is rebels in trucks driving though the bush shooting everything they see with AK47s. They'll take ivory and rhino horn, but everything else they just enjoy seeing it die.
Paragraphs... Google that s**t dude...
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Old 10-25-2013, 12:30   #35
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OK, I'll try to keep it easier for you next time. Nice deflection, though .

I know what I'm talking about here. You're just throwing some emo ***** out hoping to hit on a fact here and there. Or, at least, hoping no one calls you on the BS.

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Old 10-25-2013, 13:25   #36
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I'm confused as to why anyone would want to try and find a legitimate excuse for piracy and defend the act of terrorism.

I'm sorry, but you cannot come onto my boat and take what belongs to me. I have a huge heart and will give people just about anything. If you decide to forcefully take what is mine I will destroy you in defense. That's just how it is.



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Old 10-25-2013, 14:30   #37
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There is still immense natural wealth across much of Africa . This wealth stays in the hands of the ruling elite like I explained to you. Your view of African history is faulty and your view of modern African society and politics is faultier. Oil and mineral wealth flows into the hands of African leaders of each country, and these leaders are typically members of the tribal elite. The majority of what trickles down will usually stay within the tribal structure.
Pretty much like here really, lol... Our most elite tribe is goldman sachs
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Old 10-25-2013, 14:38   #38
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Old 10-25-2013, 15:38   #39
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Standard. Government dysfunction centuries ago is the excuse for government dysfunction now, which is the root of the piracy, and also the reason that cargo ships can't defend themselves adequately for a few thousand dollars (port restrictions). Tell us something we don't know -- some of us argue constantly for the non-aggression principle and respect for property rights, and others are infatuated by "government solutions." You know who you are.
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Old 10-25-2013, 17:18   #40
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The problem is, piracy pays The shipping companies know--and have done the calculations--that paying the ransom is the easy way out. In the big scheme of things, it's a relatively small cost of doing business.

Make a comparison to the policy of banks to armed robbery. Give up the money. Don't resist. Sure, they hope the presence of armed guards, if any, may be a deterrent, but they really don't want any shootouts in their banks. And, they for sure don't want any Rambo CCW'ers intervening. The amount of money involved in the common holdup is insignificant to them compared to the liability of resistance gone wrong.

I'm sure the shipping companies have a similar calculation.

What is more disturbing to me, is the piracy involving kidnapping of non-commercial boat folks on their private boats. Not a whole lot they can do against multiple armed pirates who make violence a part of their occupation.

I would love to see a multinational coalition of concerned naval powers establish anti-piracy rapid response teams (think Seals) to patrol and respond to nautical 911 calls.

Swift and sure death to pirates is the only answer in the long terms.
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