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Old 10-02-2014, 21:40   #1
tilefish
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180 gr and 200 gr XTP: Longshot and IMR 800x or Accurate #9 and Blue Dot?

I posted this on another forum that we probably all belong to but I figured I would post it here too.


I have been shooting and reloading for 10mm for a little while now and typically use Longshot and Power Pistol, occasionally HS-6 but it meters poorly and jams up my measure.

I have both the Lee and the Hornady reloading manuals and both call for Accurate#9 or Blue Dot for full power loads. However when I look at the pull-downs from the boutique ammo manufacturers they seem to overwhelmingly use Longshot or IMR 800x.

What gives? Why do the bullet manufacturers reloading manuals list Accurate#9 and Blue Dot as the top performer but the guys who actually manufacture 10mm ammo get better results with Longshot and IMR? Why do they list comparatively anemic loads with Longshot? I was looking through another manual (Speer I believe) at my reloading store and that manual also calls for Accurate #9 for the best performance.

For what its worth, I have not worked with IMR 800x but I am fully aware of its poor metering properties. However Longshot meters great.

What am I missing?
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:58   #2
Mountain10mm
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You might be missing a chronograph. Lots of the "boutique" manufacturers' advertised velocities are not the same as actual velocities. Getting 1300 or even 1250 feet-per-second with a 200 grain bullet out a stock Glock barrel isn't easy to do. In fact, out of all the 10mm commercially loaded ammo out there, I've only had one (Buffalo Bore) that ever clocked over 1200fps with 180 or 200 grain bullets in a G20 barrel.

For what it's worth #9 is my favorite 10mm powder.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:25   #3
bear10
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Blue Dot

I use Blue Dot for a lot of my 10mm loads. I load 11.2 grs. with a WLP primer and 180grXTP for a load that chonographs 1233fps from my G29. Longshot also has been shown to perform well for others, I just haven't tried it yet when I have several pounds of Blue Dot on hand.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:39   #4
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I have one 800-x load I use for a 200 grain cast Beartooth bullet at 1150 fps from my 4.25" Commander. The only reason I've stuck with it this long is.

BTB bullets are tough to get, 3-6 month wait time.
I don't shoot many of these, less then 60-75 per year.
I need to order more and haven't gotten around to it.

One of these days I'll work up some AA9 loads for this BTB bullet, I have 180 gr. and 200 gr. XTP loads, worked up with AA9. I think it's an excellent powder and is easy to work with, I can't say that about 800X. Not to mention that with 800x one needs to go over book to get top velocity and if you read up on it, it appears that some have had erratic results with it. 800x also needs to be hand weighed for what that's worth. It's workable but a PIA.

Overall for me AA9 is easier to work with and I can get the velocity I want at below book which is a good formula for me.

From a 5" 1911 I'm getting 1165 fps for the 200 grain XTP with less then the AA 5.0 edition book max and 1211 fps for the 180 grain XTP, again below book. My elevation is 5200-8000 foot so that might have some influence on velocity.

Both these loads are adequate for what I want from my 10mm 1911 guns and in my opinion they don't beat me or the gun up, they both offer excellent accuracy. AA7 is a good powder too, I use this for 155-180's, one of these days I might use it for some 135's.

I was talking to one of the ballistic guys at Accurate Arms and he was joking that even he can't get their own powder to test loads, so with today's powder shortage you might have to make do with what you can find. I'd use more 800x if I had too, with my current stock of AA 7 and 9 it makes it a less desirable choice, at least for me.

Just because the boutique guys have such and such a load doesn't mean I'd load to that level, (or shoot their ammo) I've been around the 10mm for a long, long time and after some of the results I have had with certain boutique ammo makers who will remain anonymous I consider myself lucky to have all 10 fingers.
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Old 10-03-2014, 13:49   #5
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I'm a big fan of IMR 800X, and a few others for the 10mm. 800X is a flake powder and some have issues dispensing it, but that issue is negated by using a RCBS Chargemaster. Firing a full power 800X 175gr Silvertip bullet through a 6"/KKM barrel in a G20, MV was 1398fps. This powder also exhibited a relatively low muzzle flash;

10mm Reloading Forum

Other powders I like to load with are AA #7, AA #9, Longshot and the discontinued HS-7.

I wasn't able to get Blue Dot to the velocities of the other powders or what some other handloaders have chronographed.
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Old 10-03-2014, 18:34   #6
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Longshot and 800-X need to be boosted well beyond book data to get the velocities of BD and, especially A9. Economy is a consideration in an ammo business. Accurate no 9 will consume 50% more powder than LS or 800-X.

Blue Dot is loud and flashy so not optimal for a factory load. Don't get me wrong, I do love me some Blue Dot. But those are "features" not desirable in a factory load.

I have done a bunch of test I with all four, and I like A9 for high performance loads. I have a couple of 200 grain pet loads that exceed 1200 fps from my G20. Those are within book maxes. But I'm not lookin at cost-per-unit like the ammo guys are.

Last edited by Taterhead; 10-03-2014 at 18:35..
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Old 10-07-2014, 06:17   #7
happie2shoot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
Longshot and 800-X need to be boosted well beyond book data to get the velocities of BD and, especially A9. Economy is a consideration in an ammo business. Accurate no 9 will consume 50% more powder than LS or 800-X.

Blue Dot is loud and flashy so not optimal for a factory load. Don't get me wrong, I do love me some Blue Dot. But those are "features" not desirable in a factory load.

I have done a bunch of test I with all four, and I like A9 for high performance loads. I have a couple of 200 grain pet loads that exceed 1200 fps from my G20. Those are within book maxes. But I'm not lookin at cost-per-unit like the ammo guys are.
Have you ever loaded to the full power Parabellum Research
V-Supreme loads with the 180 and 200gr with AA no 9.
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Old 10-07-2014, 09:02   #8
Taterhead
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happie2shoot View Post
Have you ever loaded to the full power Parabellum Research
V-Supreme loads with the 180 and 200gr with AA no 9.
EDITED since I originally mis-read the data on the pull-down thread on 10mm-Firearms...

I don't have my data in front of me, but I think this is how I remember my data: I've worked up to mid-14s with a 180 XTP and 13.2 with the 200 XTP. Those are found in the HDY manual. I also load the 200 gr WFNGC to 13.8 grains. That load is loosely based upon older Speer data. Both of the 200 grain loads are > 1200 fps from the G20.

Last edited by Taterhead; 10-07-2014 at 09:11..
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Old 10-07-2014, 17:14   #9
happie2shoot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
EDITED since I originally mis-read the data on the pull-down thread on 10mm-Firearms...

I don't have my data in front of me, but I think this is how I remember my data: I've worked up to mid-14s with a 180 XTP and 13.2 with the 200 XTP. Those are found in the HDY manual. I also load the 200 gr WFNGC to 13.8 grains. That load is loosely based upon older Speer data. Both of the 200 grain loads are > 1200 fps from the G20.
Thank you, here are the links of the pull downs for the 180 and
200gr,

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...pZy16T0E#gid=6

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...pZy16T0E#gid=7
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Old 10-10-2014, 22:25   #10
tilefish
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I managed to find 1 pound of Accurate #9 today.

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Old 11-07-2014, 16:57   #11
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i just got some longshot in... im sold on it. i tested real quick before the sun went down(will do again tomorrow) and 9.5gr(book max) got me 1404FPS out of my 6.61" lone wolf barrel with 40sw LW compensator as well! this was with a 180gr federal HST bullet at 1.250 OAL.

freaking stunned. i only wanted a 1300 FPS load, but ill settle for the 1400 FPS. going to try some other loads tomorrow.

gun is a G20 long slide with 22# recoil spring. freaking killer powder. id find some of that. it meters excellently too. i tested about 20 cases worth and all 9.5 gr every time.


well, after more testing today 9.5gr gave me smileyed brass. 150 test rounds are having to be pulled down. :( thats ok though, ill drop the load to 9.2gr

Last edited by buckwheat762; 11-08-2014 at 14:32..
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Old 11-07-2014, 18:30   #12
jimsmith1941
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Aa #9

Quote:
Originally Posted by tilefish View Post
I managed to find 1 pound of Accurate #9 today.

There ia 1 lb of #9 @ Mid South Guns in Wagram, NC or there was a couple of days ago if you are close by (910-396-2370
I'm holding out for #7
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Old 11-25-2014, 21:10   #13
preventec47
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----------------

Last edited by preventec47; 11-25-2014 at 21:16..
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Old 11-25-2014, 21:14   #14
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There may be a new highest power density performer pistol
powder on the market now by Alliant called "BE-86".
Previously "Power Pistol" because of the highest percentage
of nitro glycerin of any smokeless powder,(40 %) would produce
the highest velocities for the least amount of powder.

The BE-86 load w/ the 10mm 165 gr bullet load at the Alliant website
has higher velocity than the PowerPistol with one less grain of BE-86
powder. This is a new powder we are going to have to get familiar with.
The newest Alliant powder burn rate chart lists the BE-86 as very slightly
faster burning than the PowerPistol powder.
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Last edited by preventec47; 11-26-2014 at 14:06..
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Old 11-25-2014, 22:02   #15
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Hey, Tilefish, Prevent, Wheat and Jim and Taterhead. Thought I saw this thread earlier and I'm with you in this serious, explosive apothecary game of 10mm ballistics ("safe" limits always) to yield us the BEST LOAD, be it for hunting (yes, please), SD or target work.
Scientific hat on, here's what helps me in getting repeatable results--and please share the habits that help you, fellow shooters:

1.) Meter/measure everything consistently and keep everything to a high standard. Otherwise I'm wasting my time at the bench. To that end, I'm liking the Harrel Schneutzen Culver-type measure http://www.brownells.com/reloading/p...prod38248.aspx for every powder but large flake 700X and the beloved and cursed 800X. For these infuriating powders it's the Uniflow Competition w/ pistol cylinder (still + - .2g/charge I guess with the huge flakes) with powder trickler at the ready (Chargemaster recommendation noted--thanks).
2.) Good caliper gauge on lap (ouch) to measure each finished cartridge.
3.)Consistent crimp--liking mild/moderate taper crimp over FC.
4.) RECORD EVERYTHING from each load at the range w/ quick shorthand on box.
This #4 step is soooo important or I find myself testing the same load a few months later.
5.) When I get a terrible result, I note it and deep-six the combination and move on. There are too many good (I mean "accurate") powder/bullet combos to mess around with an ugly stepchild. I have to let go of the, "Maybe if I add .1g more, and reduce my COAL by .002" I'll nail it." Still working on this one.
I write this to further cement the procedure into my own loading mind as well as any like-minded fellow loader's.
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Old 11-25-2014, 22:13   #16
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In my stock g29sf, I am jst not seeing the love for 800x. I get decent vel, but just so so accuracy. I seem to get better accuracy & seemingly leer pressures with aa#9 & BD. longshot ones well but seems to give me greater case expansion thn aa#9. All with 200gr & 220gr. I have some 175gr WSTHP, but haven't tred thm yet in m g20. Now on to the 200gr wnlfp.
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Last edited by fredj338; 11-25-2014 at 22:15..
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Old 11-25-2014, 22:20   #17
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+1 on Speer data for 10mm with some powders. Their #14 manual (2011) has some N350 data we here will like ( approaching their max. data with XTP 180g I got 1350 fps w/ 6" KKM. Still believe 800X yields a hair better accuracy but it could've been me). Fred you are so right re: great accuracy w/ BD. Makes me keep going Blue, saying, "Blue, you're my boy."

Last edited by Ammunition Attrition; 11-25-2014 at 22:22..
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