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Old 09-13-2004, 13:25   #26
G-20er
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Just received my first pound of AA#9 powder and will be working up loads in the G-20 using the 200gr. XTP bullet. Starting loads at 13 grains, then moving to 13.5, 14.0 and last group to be fired if pressure is still within limits will be 14.3 grains. Will post the data here as soon as I get these rounds through my chronograph. Looking to reach somewhere around 1225 fps. Also reference VV load data. Basically I'm trying to find a hunting load and I'll be comparing AA#9 to the VV 3N38 with all loads using 200 gr. XTP, starline brass and CCI350 primers.
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Old 09-13-2004, 15:28   #27
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I like Vit powders better than Accurate. N105 works very well for 10mm.
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Old 09-13-2004, 16:44   #28
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Medpilot,

I saw all your posts about N-105 and I was going to choose that powder; however, after further thought I think with the 200 grain bullets N-105 may use up all case capacity before proper velocities are reached.
I had great luck with N-110 in my .44 Mag reloads, so I love this brand of powder but I decided to go with 3N38 since it was slightly smaller than N-105, which should cause it to pack better and in theory since its slightly faster on the burn rate chart should take slightly less powder to get the job done. N-105 probably is the best VV powder for all bullet weights below 200 grains.
Last night I loaded the rounds with 3N38 and believe me with 9.5 through 10.8 there is absolutly no more room for anything any higher. Load density is right at 100% which is exactly what I like. I like to max out velocity within pressure limits and also have the load density right at 98-100%
What are your thoughts?

Last edited by G-20er; 09-13-2004 at 16:49..
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Old 09-13-2004, 21:11   #29
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One thing I've noticed about the tubular shape of Vihta Vuori powders is that you can compress it a little more than other powders like flattened ball powders. But for a 200 grainer max load, like you, I'd go the next step down to 3N38.
Looks like you are on the right track.

If you get a chance, compare the pressure signs for an equivalent load using Accurate Arms and see if you notice any difference between the two powders. I noticed that A.A. will show pressure signs before Vit powders on a comparative level.
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Old 09-19-2004, 17:08   #30
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Ok here is the new data using AA#9 with 200 grain XTP Bullets.

G-20 with stock length barrel.
Starline Brass
CCI 350 primers
OAL of 1.260




13 grains:
GROUP #2
1) 1110.0 -10.4
2) 1106.0 -14.4
3) 1126.0 5.6
4) 1101.0 -19.4
5) 1122.0 1.6
6) 1111.0 -9.4
7) 1147.0 26.6
8) 1136.0 15.6
9) 1117.0 -3.4
10) 1128.0 7.6
High: 1147.0
Low: 1101.0
E.S.: 46.0
Ave.: 1120.4
S.D.: 14.2
95%: 12.0



13.5 grains
GROUP #3
1) 1143.0 -18.4
2) 1151.0 -10.4
3) 1173.0 11.6
4) 1160.0 -1.4
5) 1170.0 8.6
6) 1159.0 -2.4
7) 1162.0 0.6
8) 1157.0 -4.4
9) 1178.0 16.6
10) 1162.0 0.6
High: 1178.0
Low: 1143.0
E.S.: 35.0
Ave.: 1161.4
S.D.: 10.2
95%: 8.0



14 grains:
GROUP #4
1) 1206.0 -3.8
2) 1230.0 20.2
3) 1216.0 6.2
4) 1222.0 12.2
5) 1206.0 -3.8
6) 1204.0 -5.8
7) 1199.0 -10.8
8) 1221.0 11.2
9) 1204.0 -5.8
10) 1191.0 -18.8
High: 1230.0
Low: 1191.0
E.S.: 39.0
Ave.: 1209.8
S.D.: 11.8
95%: 10.0




14.3 grains:
GROUP #5
1) 1246.0 12.2
2) 1248.0 14.2
3) 1254.0 20.2
4) 1219.0 -14.8
5) 1233.0 -0.8
6) 1225.0 -8.8
7) 1223.0 -10.8
8) 1244.0 10.2
9) 1223.0 -10.8
10) 1224.0 -9.8
High: 1254.0
Low: 1219.0
E.S.: 35.0
Ave.: 1233.8
S.D.: 12.8
95%: 10.0

Maximum safe load with stock barrel at 65 F OAT was:

13 grains which only produced 1120 fps. 13.5 gave me 50% of brass with light smileys. 14.0 gave me all light smileys on brass with black streaks comming from primer seam. 14.3 all brass had heavy smileys that you can catch your nail on and one brass that was split through the wall lengthwise with case, talking about being lucky. WOW!



Maximum safe load with KKM barrel at 65 F OAT was:

14.3 grains which produced 1233 fps. In high temperatures I would recommend 14 grains as max charge. 14 grains will also be my personal maximum with KKM barrel. That puts the 200 grain XTP at 1209 fps.

I am learning that with the KKM aftermarket barrel with powders in this burn range, you can load 10% more powder which gives you approximately 110 fps with same pressure signs as compared to the Glock stock barrel.

AA#9 showed equal pressure signs at 20 fps sooner as compared to VV 3N38.

Last edited by G-20er; 09-19-2004 at 17:25..
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Old 09-19-2004, 18:31   #31
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Very thorough post.

How compressed was the 14.3gr load?
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Old 09-19-2004, 18:45   #32
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Medpilot,

Funny you should ask...it was tight man. The 14.3 is completely maxed out without too much compression. I say this because the OAL with the charge of 14.3 was actually 1.263 the bullet actually sprung back .003 of a inch. The load of 14 grains would be the best load for all conditions in the KKM barrel with the 200gr. XTP.

What a great weekend at the range. I learned so much and finally found a keeper which as you know was the VV 3N38. It gave me way better SD, higher velocity at lower pressure levels as compared to AA#9.

Can't wait to get my Nickle Brass, should be here on Monday.

How is your load testing doing? Are we done yet?

I think we have tested the best powders for the 10mm that are available over the counter. I'm ready to load several hundred rounds with the VV 3N38.

Last edited by G-20er; 09-19-2004 at 19:11..
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Old 09-19-2004, 20:51   #33
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There were a few weeks where I went non-stop (a few hundred rounds a week). I'm sorta taking a little break right now.

I'm glad you did the comparisons between the factory and KKM barrels. I don't have the kahunas to shoot nuclear loads from a factory barrel. Just more proof for the folks who say aftermarket barrels are a waste of money.

I don't think this whole testing thing ever gets done. Seems like there is an endless variance of loads you can work up.

Last edited by Medpilot 2; 09-19-2004 at 20:59..
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:54   #34
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Just a slight variation of what G-20er posted.

Stock G20 AA#9, 200gr XTP, 57F, 4200ft, 1.26" OAL, .421" crimp, R-P nickle once fired, WLP;

13.2grs, avg 1139fps, hi 1147fps, lo 1129fps, ES 18fps; no pressure signs.

Adios,
Bob
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Old 01-02-2006, 15:49   #35
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Berry's plated 200gr.

Tested Berry's plated 200 gr. hollowpoint with new Winchester brass, CCI 350 Mag. primer and 13.0 grs. AA#9

OAL: 1.266 (seating depth affected by powder compression at 13.0 grs. Bullet rebounds from compression about 3 thousandths, to 1.266

Tested in two different stock std. barrel length G-20's

No smiles on fired brass and good function.

Both guns shot this combination very well (average 2" groups at 25 yds both guns.

good 100 % density load.

Paul
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Old 01-29-2006, 00:59   #36
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Once the chrono comes back from factory repairs and the G20 gets some new innards including a 6" KKM, then I'll do a side-by-side with Blue Dot and AA #9 with 165gr Golden Sabers.

Adios,
Bob
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Old 02-19-2006, 20:04   #37
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Has anyone tried AA # 9 with a 180 gr Hornady XTP? The Hornady manual lists 14.9 as max for 1250 fps, but this comes out to be 18% compressed on Quickload and they actual recommend a max charge of around 12.1 gr. So I just loaded up 50 of them in Double Tap once fired brass with CCI 350 primers and a 180 gr XTP over 12.1 gr of AA No 9. Will try them as soon as I get my KKM.

Wanted to know if the Hornady max load is going to be too compressed and if, in your experience, it is a safe load to aspire to? Has anyone chronoed AA # 9 with the 180 gr XTPs and if so, what velocities were achievable? I ain't looking for McNett level but was sort of hoping for something between 1200 to 1250 fps from a standard length barrel.
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Old 02-19-2006, 21:13   #38
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AA#9 and 190 Tournament Master

AA#9 & Sierra 190 tournament master

Short test:

Sierra 190 Tournament master
New Winchester brass
CCI 350 primer
13.7 AA#9
seating 1.255

Glock model 20
In 6" Storm Lake barrel: ave vel. 1265 fps
In factory barrel: ave vel. 1200 fps

Very good accuracy both barrels, better in the Storm Lake (as usual)

Stopped load development at the 13.7 as velocity and accuracy were good, and Glock smiles will appear in the factory barrel with much more powder added. Plus, though ammo kept warm, weather was cool and I will verify pressure when the weather warms up some...i.e. no glock smiles in the factory barrel. The Storm Lake barrel could take some more powder, but I am satisfied for now.

Will use this combination for my field load. I checked with
Sierra, and the 190 Tournament Master has a fairly heavy (thick) jacket and fairly soft lead core. From the 10mm, about all I expect is some riveting from like a medium game shoulder shot...mainly due to the design of the bullet.

Nice Load...

Paul
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Old 02-25-2006, 00:52   #39
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I worked up some 180gr Golden Sabers with AA #9; G-20, KKM 6", Win virgin brass, Federal 150 Match primer, 1.252-1.254", 7 shot strings, 4200', 57F, 12% humidity.

Starting at 14.3grs, ES of 79fps too much;

14.5grs - 1336fps, 713fpe, ES 14, SD 04;

14.8grs - 1371fps, 751fps, ES 23, SD 08.

I've found Golden Sabers to be a little slower than Gold Dots, but they have been very accurate in all my sidearms.

Adios,
Bob
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Old 02-25-2006, 18:20   #40
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Accurate arms data

Glolt20-91

Youv'e got those Golden Sabers screaming right along !

How did you get the bullet to stay put at those charge levels.

With the Sierra 190, at 14.4 grs and AA#9 it starts pushing the bullet back out. I am seating in one step and taper crimping in another, but at the 14.4, I get 2 to 3 thousands bullet spring back with the 190. The Golden Saber must be enough shorter to allow the charge.

Something interesting.....

I tested a G 20 Storm Lake 5" barrel with 13.7 and 14.2 of AA#9, Winchester brass CCI 350 primer, seating depth 1.260 for Sierra 190 and there was only 13fps average velocity difference between the two charges. Must be one of those early compression things where as compression starts, velocity flatlines (so to speak)till the charges are heavy enough. I retested it a couple times just to make sure and it stayed the same. The lower 13.7 charge was much better standard deviation than the 14.2 so I guess I will stay at the 13.7 since another 1/2 grain netted almost nothing.....the 13.7 charge & 5" Storm Lake barrel gives 1248 fps average velocity with the Sierra 190.

I will give the 180 Golden Sabers a try...I like them better than the Gold Dots anyway.....

regards

Paul
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Old 02-28-2006, 15:43   #41
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I learned during personal barrier testing that the Golden Saber is one of the toughest bullets on the market, followed by Gold Dot. Once in awhile GS will have a jacket separation, but it's rather rare compared to other brands.

Shot out one of the supports on my chrono, when the replacement arrives I have some 200XTPs to test out with AA #9 and KKM barrel.

I misread your post on bullet length.

180gr GS random sample is .635" long;

200 XTP random sample is .684" long.

The only Sierra bullets I have are rifle calibers, hope the above helps.

Adios,
Bob
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Old 02-28-2006, 17:45   #42
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Accurate Arms data...

Glolt

Glolt
Since this is the Accurate Arms powder data post area, would you e mail me a synopsis of your barrier testing with the Golden Sabre's and weights tested...please. Barrier penetration is a area I am keenly interested in and I especially wondered about the Golden Saber's.

YOu could just e mail to: ppro.........@.....mychoice.cc

Just drop all the dots but the one before the cc

thanks

Paul
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Old 03-06-2006, 22:20   #43
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Paul, e-mail sent.

Adios,
Bob
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Old 05-21-2007, 18:31   #44
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Pleasant AA #7 surprise

KKM sent a replacement 6" barrel because of accuracy issues with the first one, so it's back to testing again because every barrel is different. Stock recoil spring/rod.

Using data from Speer and Hornady manuals, started out with 11.4grs and both manuals have a maximum of 12.0grs with their respective bullets.

Mid 90s, 30.04"AP and falling, 10%RH, 4200ft, Starline, WLP, 1.260" COAL, seven shot string, CED Millenium:

180gr GS - 1347fps/725fpe, ES 38fps, SD 13fps;

180gr Win JHP notched - 1373fps/753fpe, ES 24fps, SD 09fps

Power factor with both rounds in excess of 240 and a milder felt recoil than 10.7grs of HS-7 @1286fps/661fpe - old KKM barrel w/22# recoil spring/steel guide rod.

Replacement KKM barrel excellent on demand, freehand accuracy at 55 meters with both bullet loadings. No pressure signs.

I've started using the Win JHP notched more frequently in the last few months in multiple calibers; like what I'm seeing, especially in barrier testing.

Bob
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Old 05-28-2008, 20:17   #45
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AA # 7 180 Rem FMJ

AA#7
180 Rem FMJ
multi-fired brass
large magnum pistol primers cci 350
COAL ~ 1.26
Crimped only to remove bell from case (.424"-.423" ish dia.)
Chrony at 15" from muzzle
Shot only to find max load for guns and get some fps numbers.
60-70 F

Glock 20, 6" Glock Hunting Barrel
at 11.4, all rounds had flattened primers, and had a case ring diameter of .434 (my gun's observed max).
at 11.1 all rounds had flattened primers (not quite as bad as 11.4), and diameter of .434
at 10.8 some flatter primers, case diamater from .433 to .434
I'd feel safe probably up to 11.1... but know that 10.8 is better. I'll do further testing in this area.

9.9 gr
1110
1086
1158
1152

10.2 gr
1131
1129
1168
1174

10.5 gr
1189
1222
1209
1202

10.8 gr
1217
1238
1232
1247

11.1 gr
1271
1278
1260
1253

11.4 gr
1303
1284
1288
1293



S&W 610, 6.5"
All cases at all loads have flattened primers. At 11.4, primers filled all voids of pocket, and hung the cylinder on either a stuck case, or stuck case on firing pin ring on receiver face
11.1 showed no tightness when removing cartridges. Would call 11.1 max load.

9.9 gr
1086
1136
1161
1098

10.2 gr
1129
1193
1187
1174

10.5 gr
1201
1226
1222
1231

10.8 gr
1250
1231
1268
1267

11.1 gr
1230
1257
1288
1299


11.4 gr
1330
1295
1321
1318
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Old 08-05-2008, 15:55   #46
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Accurate Arms Data

I shoot a G-20 with a stock length Barsto Barrel. I have been using a published recipe of 11.0 gr of AA-7. 1.250 OAL. WLP, and a 180gr. Rainier FP bullet. Without the benefit of a chronograph, I saw some of the same indications over 11.0gr. The published speed on this @ 11.0 is 1200fps, so I imagine you are seeing a bit more velocity with a 6" barrel. AA-7 is a primer flattener, no doubt about it, and it burns clean, and meters well. I have tried other powders, but I am still happiest with AA-7, no matter where it is made. Thanks for publishing your data.
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Old 08-06-2008, 14:49   #47
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I'm going to do some #9 test loads. I'm starting with my 180 Rem FMJ, but does anyone have approximate start/max load numbers for Rem Golden Saber 165?
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:51   #48
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AA#9, 180 Rem FMJ MC

AA#9
180 Rem FMJ
multi-fired brass
large magnum pistol primers cci 350
COAL ~ 1.26 (found a little creep in a some of the low-power rounds unrelated to load)
Crimped (.421"-.422" ish dia.)
Chrony at 15" from muzzle
Shot only to find max load for guns and get some fps numbers.
70's F

Followed load data from two sources, Hornady book and Accurate web. Accurate listed loads from 12.2-13.5. Hornday started much lower and went up to 14.9

Glock 20, 6" Glock Hunting Barrel
at 14.9, rounds had semi-flattened primers (not squished). Rounds were maxing at .433 case diameter. Didn't make .434 (my gun's observed max).
From 14 up, recoil was assertive.
All loads seemed to leave a lot of crud behind unburnt or dirty powder... lots of little yellow flecks

12.2 gr
1149
1170
1160
1183

12.5 gr
1099
1145
1172
1168

12.8 gr
1162
1174
1143
1195
1207

13.1 gr
1234
1186
1217
1233

13.4 gr
1231
1218
1251
1226

13.7 gr
1280
1251
1257
1244

14.0 gr
1254
1274
1269
1251

14.3 gr
1278
1299
1297
1267

14.6 gr
1302
1302
1308
1309

14.9 gr
1316
1299
1293
1294



S&W 610, 6.5"
Flattened primers appeared early. Have to reexamine cases for more detail at different charges.
If I fire one shot at a time and open cylinder, I didn't have problems with the cylinder not wanting to open. Cases always extracted smoothly, no bind. If I fired 3 rounds in succession, not opening the cylinder, I did see some issues opening the cylinder above 13.1 gr. Cases are never stuck to receiver face. It seems it has something to do with the gear in the center of the cylinder. Cylinder turns easily.... so not sure what's happening


12.2 gr
1106
1180
1142
1160

12.5 gr
1166
1155
1193
1160

12.8 gr
1167
1188
1217
1207
1239

13.1 gr
1194
1230
1241
1225

13.4 gr
1218
1248
1241
1221

13.7 gr
1253
1255
1282
1255

14.0 gr
1288
1278
1259
1307

14.3 gr
1300
1337
1318
1305

14.6 gr
1346
1340
1322

14.9 gr
1283
1348
1334
1307
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Old 08-08-2008, 09:42   #49
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Accurate Arms Data

AA-7 burns better than AA-9 for me. I use AA-9 in .44 Mag. I also use a standard WLP with AA-7. My OAL is 1.250. Good Luck.
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Old 08-08-2008, 14:26   #50
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in these powders, aside from case capacity, what difference will the 1.25 vs 1.26 oal make?
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