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Old 11-13-2003, 13:59   #1
axel
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I Don't Get It ! (I Get it Now)

First, let me say I know this thread is going in inflame just about everyone but I've thought about this for several years and this seems to be the right forum to see if anyone can change my mind. Let me also say I don't hunt but do not begrudge those who do. I understand and agree with all the reasons for hunting. Having said that ...

I don't get it. Hunting to me is stalking an animal on its terms, staying downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killing shot. It seems deer hunting has been reduced to putting up a tree stand, spreading your deer urine or other attracting scents, rattling the deer antlers and waiting for the deer to come to you. Where is the sport in that? To me, that's not much different than putting a salt lick out in the middle of a field and waiting for a cow to approach it. I have no problem with the killing of the animal (as long as the meat is harvested and it's not killing for the sake of killing) but I couldn't be very proud of a kill if all I did was pick a good place for my tree stand. There you go, that's my opinion. More than happy to learn why you think I'm wrong.
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Old 11-13-2003, 14:07   #2
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let me be the first to say that you have no idea what you are talking about...you make it sound soooo easy... not so

if you think its that easy then i dare say go try it...if you merely set up a tree stand spread some piss around and think your in the right place, that you are guaranteed a deer, then you are (1) in a place that is severely overpopulated with deer (2)dont know what you are talking about...


if you think its so easy, kill one this season and post pics...until then its option (2)
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Old 11-13-2003, 14:13   #3
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I'm not saying

the tree stand approach doesn't require skill and knowledge. All I'm saying is given the the options of stalking on foot vs. tree stand, the tree stand approach doesn't seem as though it takes as much effort. I freely said I'm willing to listen to opposing opinions. So rather that tell me why I'm wrong (I might add without supporting your position) tell me why you're right. Educate me - but let's try to keep the discussion to the topic at hand and not reduce it to the defensive "you're just an idiot" responses. Fair enough?
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Old 11-13-2003, 14:15   #4
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I guess you're right. NASCAR isn't much of a sport either. I mean how hard is it to turn left? Golf isn't much of a sport. All you're doing is hitting a little ball. Baseball isn't much of a sport. Throw a ball, hit a ball. How hard can that be?

Until you've gotten up at 2:30am to get out to the field hours before sunup, in 5 degree weather, for the 7th day in a row, to spent the morning freezing your butt off, relishing in the beauty of the sun coming up over the trees and watching the woods come alive, you won't understand.
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Old 11-13-2003, 14:23   #5
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It’s called the food chain. Some folks enjoy earning their meal the same way humankind did before Wal-Mart. ;g
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Old 11-13-2003, 14:23   #6
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alright fair enough...

first of all setting up a tree stand is not really that easy of a task...for one, i am reduced to hunting on public gamelands which means that i hike my gear in and out every day...i start scouting deer signs in the summer to figure where on this public lands i am going to place my stand. there is no baiting allowed on public lands.
okay, say you have found your spot...the saying goes that 80% of the deer are on 20% of the land...i have found this to be fairly accurate, just as in fishing the saying goes 90% of the fish are in 10% of the lake. now that you have set yourself up, you must hike that gear before the sun rises and climb you, your stand, your gear up that tree without making noise and breaking a sweat, or you have just ruined your spot. you must be prepared to sit motionless for hours and hope that you are in the right place...deer rarely stand still during the gun season and you hope that you can needle a shot through the woods on a usually moving target and hit it in the vitals. also easier said than done. try it i implore you.


then try it with archery equipment and hope that you have set your stand up where you hope you are within 40 yards of where a deer is going to pass and pause for you long enough to draw and shoot

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Old 11-13-2003, 14:56   #7
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Re: I'm not saying

Quote:
Originally posted by axel
So rather that tell me why I'm wrong (I might add without supporting your position) tell me why you're right. Educate me -
C'mon guys, let's not blow the opportunity to recruit a new hunter by blasting him needlessly, simply because he's unaware. Hunting, in part, is about numbers. Take my home state for example. The deer herd in Georgia is estimated at approximately 1.3 million. Researchers figure that the state's ecosystem can healthily sustain only about 900K - 1 million. An over populated herd contributes hundreds of thousands of dollars in insurance expenses from collisions with vehicles alone, not to mention damage to property in urban areas. As a matter of fact, my chief has a nice 7-pointer in his office he shot on duty (with a G22) a few years ago after it crashed through a plate glass window into the lobby of a girls dorm. He attempted unsuccessfully to direct it back outside but when it became irritated and charged him he had to shoot it. These types of incidents have prompted DNR to allow a record number of deer harvests in recent years. It wasn't that long ago it was one buck and two doe. Now it's two and twelve respectively. If it weren't for the efforts of ethical hunters actively seeking game each season the problem would certainly be worse. Are there other, more basic reasons for hunting such as enjoyment, tradition and putting meat in the freezer? Of course, but I don't carry my rifle into the meat section of my local Kroger and my dad wasn't a hunter. I guess that leaves enjoyment. I really do enjoy all aspects of hunting. I enjoy getting up at 3:00 AM to sit in a tree, freezing my butt off all day only to end up seeing nothing. I also enjoy knowing that I am doing my part to manage the herd in my state. From the planting of high quality grazing vegitation year round to harvesting mature deer during the season. It's about different things to different folks but it's very necessary from an ecological standpoint, if not an ethical one.
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Old 11-13-2003, 15:45   #8
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axel said... (quote)

....I don't get it. Hunting to me is stalking an animal on its terms, staying downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killing shot. It seems deer hunting has been reduced to putting up a tree stand, spreading your deer urine or other attracting scents, rattling the deer antlers and waiting for the deer to come to you. Where is the sport in that? To me, that's not much different than putting a salt lick out in the middle of a field and waiting for a cow to approach it...(end quote).

axel, first let me say to you, that i have been brought up in the wild west, in cowboy country, ranching, cowboying, guiding, and you would not believe some of the stuff i have seen from hunters. (from the city).

While "i agree" with you about "one thing" you said.(quote).."Hunting to me is stalking downwind, trying to silently get close enough for a killling shot.." (end quote).

Yes, the above, is a very exciting way to hunt, and i think you'll find most of us hunters still do that, 'to a degree'.. in fact, it is 'my favorite way' to hunt just about anything.

BUT, you speak of using attractents, and masking sents, such as deer urine etc. and you mention shooting the game over bait, such as a salt lick, or from a tree stand, and you seem to be a little perplexed about this method as though it were somewhat un-ethical.

So, let me share this with you.

The american indians, (which i grew up with), have a rather colorful 'past history' when it came to hunting. First of all they were after meat! No question there. They needed the meat to live, and the hides, and other body parts to use , for everyday life. But let me share with you some of their methods, and see how they 'stack up' to just,"hunting from a tree, or using bait, or using deer pee." (our modern day methods).

One of their favorite ways to kill buffalo, was to herd them toward a canyon rim, and drive them over the edge, where they would fall to their death, (gastly huh?). Also, they were masters of "masking sents." They used to roll in buffalo dung, to mask their human sent, as well as wear a "green skin" around their camp for a day or two, and stink themselves up, as to mask their oder. Also, they were masters of "ambush as well," hiding high in the rocks, or sometimes, laying in a hole in the ground, they had dug, and then cover themselves up with a piece of skin covered with dirt, then 'pop up,' and shoot, when the game animal came by. They also used "attractents" in one form or another, to 'bring the game animal to them,' so they could get a clean shot.

Was this "un-ethical?" No. it was hunting!

I admit, i hate it when i see folks from the city come out, drink beer, and shoot from the comfort of their pickup trucks. I really hate it when we have found a dead calf, that some moron thought was a deer. Or, when the rednecks come out and hunt off the backs of their atv's, and fire a cajillion shots at whatever runs through the woods.

THIS, i 'do not call hunting!'

As long as a man is 'ethical' in his/her hunting, and does everything possible to insure a clean quick kill on their game, and stays within the law, this is fine with me.

Hunting out of a tree, over a doe in heat sent patch, is not as easy as some think, sometimes it is, but still, it is matching wits with the animal. Whether you stalk the game, or the game stalks you, as long as your heart is in the right place, and you have taken all precations to do it well and right, hunting from a tree, or a cleft in the rocks, or stalking on foot, it is still hunting. I don't think the good Lord has any problem what soever with this approach.

The hunter must still have the skill to... #1) Locate the correct spot, which requires scouting, and woodsmanship, and, #2). then he must still know 'when and where' to release his arrow, or fire his gun, and on top of it all, #3). he must still be a marksman, and place his shot in the vitals for a clean kill.

These methods have been used for hundreds, if not a thousand years.

Again, 'stalking and trailing game,' and coming up on them for a kill is exciting, and does take much skill, and understanding, and woodsmanship......BUT, so do these other methods. A man cannot just walk out and throw deer urine on the ground, and "hope something shows up." If done properly, it takes skill, to 'know your game, their movements, and marsmanship to place the shot well. I believe that anyone who understands this, and does it right, and loves the woods, and respects the game, has the right to 'brag on his hunt, and on his game.'

It is, as i said, the beer drinking, lazy road hunters, that do not give a flip for "the hunt," but only for 'the kill',(which no true hunter does, that is, 'get off' on the "kill."), and is to ignorant of woods, and game strategy, and and just plain 'morals,' it is this man, I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR!

If you like to 'stalk' that's great.... But don't think the boys out there doing it from a tree, or a lofty place, or using masking sents, are doing it the 'easy way.' This just ain't so.


Good hunting - My hunting brothers!

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Old 11-13-2003, 16:02   #9
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Thanks to Everyone

I asked for an education and got a good one. I really never intended to demean hunters who use tree stands. If I offended anyone I'm truly sorry. Truth is, I think I would like hunting. It's something I've never tried (except for dove hunting once in Arizona - sorry for all the buckshot I left behind. Hit one dove out of I think 5-6 boxes of shells). Many thanks to everyone who was willing to explain their views. It's one thing I love about this site. A lot of knowledgeable people who are willing to debate, instruct and inform. I may ask for a shotgun for Christmas! Thanks again.
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Old 11-13-2003, 16:52   #10
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Canyonman , very well put. For a second their axel would rather have us gather spears and rocks and hunt down our game the old ways.

The key thing that most non-hunter do not get, is that with the change of time and becoming more modern, our ways and methods of hunting have changed also.
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Old 11-13-2003, 17:29   #11
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canyonman for mod!
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Old 11-13-2003, 20:25   #12
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Aghh! Where to start.
Good job Canyon man. Axel , I'm not offended by anti's or those who don't get it. I'm not upset at those people as someone here said, educate don't just call names and alienate. I'm a hunter from a family of hunters. Period. To the animal activists who have in my Oregon stopped cougar hunting[by vote]; we have seen the Elk herds of 3800 animals in '88 go down to 400 today in one "Unit". Piss on you.

More Deer are killed every year on the Highways than by hunters.

Antis used the courts against sportsmen here in Oregon; The game commish. wanted to study Predators in NE Oregon blah blah at the end of the proposed 2 year 'study' the 'Commish' wanted[ IF Cougars ate ,killed Elk] to kill HALF the radio collared predators in the study area... Fed. funds involved... Lawsuit; not to allow Fed. monies 'for one species' over another. Commish backs down ; hunters lose.
Long Point:Hunters /Sportsmen have thru 'sporting goods' contributed Billions of dollars since the 1938 Fed. Tax on sporting goods took effect. But antis are now War-ing against us: despite the monies Hunters have contributed to the Conservation of ALL wildlife... rant off.
Most of you hunt Whitetails. White Tails are much different than Mulies. There are huge white tail deer around here but you almost never see Bucks UNTIL the rut...I hunted them with Muzzleloader, walked 4 1/2 miles into the area and back out at the end of the day. I've done it thru 18" of snow after 8 days hunting.Not fun, but I must like it 'cause I just keep doin' it? Isn't that the def. for insane? Doing the same thing over and over ; expecting a different outcome that never comes? It never gets easier, then the 'old ones' die.

Mule deer hunting this season; 60miles walked in 8 days.
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Old 11-14-2003, 23:24   #13
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Let's see, you admit you don't hunt, but you have an opinion on stand hunting. In other words, you don't have a clue and are just running off at the mouth? How can you have an opinion on something you know nothing about?

Trolling?
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Old 11-15-2003, 18:53   #14
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It is not that easy... So please reserve your judgment. The marketing folks from all those supply houses will have you think that their products are all you need. Please, it is not necessarily so.

Is there any hunter here that can share a hunt with axel? I live in New Hampshire and you can come with me if you can get here. Send me a private email if you can. The season is short so act fast.
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Old 11-16-2003, 15:26   #15
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axel,

You are more than welcome to come out to the ranch in West Texas Hoss.
It will Be a 'next season hunt', but we will treat ya right, and have a good time. Maybe we'll all learn something!


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Old 11-16-2003, 16:09   #16
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I talked to a guy at a conference last week. He was from Kansas, and we started talking hunting. I told him about the abundance of white-tails, Canada goose, ducks and pheasants in my area.

He told me he liked hunting Russian Boars. Unfamiliar with them, I asked how he hunted. He said usually with a mid-sized rifle, but when he felt fearless, he'd get a few dogs to chase and round the hogs up, and he'd "knife 'em" ;P

He said it with a straight face, and he looked like he might be able to, but I still don't know if my leg was pulled or not...
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Old 11-16-2003, 16:20   #17
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pesticidal, hunting hogs with a knife is the real deal. No joke.
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Old 11-16-2003, 17:00   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by CanyonMan
axel said... (quote)



I admit, i hate it when i see folks from the city come out, drink beer, and shoot from the comfort of their pickup trucks. I really hate it when we have found a dead calf, that some moron thought was a deer. Or, when the rednecks come out and hunt off the backs of their atv's, and fire a cajillion shots at whatever runs through the woods.

THIS, i 'do not call hunting!'



CanyonMan

CanyonMan;

I absolutley agree. Yesterday ws opening day of firearms season here in missouri, lets just say it got a little nuts. Close to 5 O'clock last night, AFTER the local conservationists decided to go ahead and put their airplane away for the day, we came across a group of city idiots running deer with dogs and ATV's. (extremely illegal) and had several individuals drive by our house with rifle barrels sticking out of truck windows. Needless to say I was pretty PO'ed. We also found 3 gutshot deer that nobody even attempted to find. all but one was still alive, needless to say, we ended their suffering,tagged & turned them in. I hate to see wastefulness like that. Im sure we will be finding stuff like that til well after the 25th(season ends)
I just wish that people were more responsible in their actions. Opening day and didn't fire one shot. Was a little disappointed, but now have 3 deer to process because some are to lazy to look for their kills, or just like shooting stuff.;6

unethical hunters give the rest of us a really bad name
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Old 11-16-2003, 17:38   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by slightlyabnorml
I just wish that people were more responsible in their actions. Opening day and didn't fire one shot. Was a little disappointed, but now have 3 deer to process because some are to lazy to look for their kills, or just like shooting stuff.
I can't stand it when someone says, "I shot one the other day and couldn't find it." This makes me wonder, how long did they look? How good was their shot placement? I took what I thought was a great broadside shot the other morning on a medium sized doe. She was in a creekbead about 80 yards from my stand and I was hunting with my 30-30 with open sights. I gave a her a few minutes then went down to where I thought she had dropped and no deer. I started checking for blood but wasn't having any luck. I began doubting myself, my shot and my decision to fire. Just when I thought I had missed and started to give up on her I finally found blood. Turns out she was on the other side of the creek when I shot her and had gone back up the way she came. An hour of tracking later I found her hiding in a ditch about a half mile from where I first saw her. We went ahead and dressed her out there to lighten the load but I carried her the whole way back. My shot, my deer, my job. It was all WAY to much work for her size (maybe 25-30 lbs. of meat) but there was no way I was leaving her to rot in the woods.
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Old 11-16-2003, 18:10   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by hcook
pesticidal, hunting hogs with a knife is the real deal. No joke.
OK. That's real hunting, then. Don't those things get to 300 pounds or more?
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