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Old 04-12-2004, 12:10   #1
sushi600
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Logging in PIC time...

Was wondering if anyone can help me clear this up.


Flying with a buddy, and we are arguing over how to log in P.I.C. hours. I was always under the impression that only one guy can log in P.I.C. at a time. i.e. for a two hour trip, if we both want to log in PIC, we could only put 1 hour each. He says we can both log in two hours because one was acting as a safety/backup pilot.

I know there are exceptions in the cases of instructors, where dual-PIC is allowed, but what he said seems to violate FAR Part 61:51

1) Only that flight time during which [the] pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, OR

2) when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, OR

3) when acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required (by type certification or flight regulations).
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Old 04-12-2004, 12:36   #2
M2 Carbine
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I think you answered your own question.

If both pilots can log PIC time like your buddy says, I need to add a couple thousand more hours.

What a time builder that would be.
It could cut your cost in half to build time for your next rating.
Every time a couple pilot friends flew an hour together they could each log an hour.
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Old 04-12-2004, 13:22   #3
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Thanks,

I was 99.99% sure I was right, but didn't want to take the .01% chance of looking like an *****

And M2... like the other post said... keep those stories coming!
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Old 04-12-2004, 13:46   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by sushi600
I was 99.99% sure I was right, but didn't want to take the .01% chance of looking like an *****
Take the chance! Take the chance! ;f

I second the motion for more stories from M2.
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Old 04-12-2004, 17:33   #5
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Sushi,
Wait til there's an accident or a FAR is busted then see if he wants to log PIC time???;f
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Old 04-12-2004, 19:27   #6
sushi600
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Quote:
Originally posted by hapuna
Sushi,
Wait til there's an accident or a FAR is busted then see if he wants to log PIC time???;f
Hahaha, funny thing is that's what started this. This guy's a close friend of mine, and we just recently started flying together (as opposed to an instructor). Basically, I feel more comfortable (even though it's VFR and perfect conditions) flying with Flight Following. There was one time I flew with him, and because I was talking I screwed up and missed an instruction (approach had to restate twice). He was worried that if I do flight following with him in the plane, and I screw up, we would both be in trouble. I wanted to assure him that only one person could fly PIC, and therefore I would take full responsibility if anything happened. I guess the other question now would be, is there any way he would be responsible for my mistakes if I was PIC?
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Old 04-12-2004, 21:40   #7
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As far as I know, you can both log PIC if one of you is under the hood and the other is acting as a safety pilot.
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Old 04-12-2004, 22:38   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by sopdan
As far as I know, you can both log PIC if one of you is under the hood and the other is acting as a safety pilot.
No you can not. If neither of them is an instructor, then only the sole manupilator of the controls can log PIC time.

The rules are different for instructors. Instructors get to log PIC any time they are instructing, which basically means any time they are sitting in the front seat.
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Old 04-12-2004, 22:49   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by sushi600
I guess the other question now would be, is there any way he would be responsible for my mistakes if I was PIC?
Having two qualified pilots in the front seats can get to be a touchy situation. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, the FAA will go after the pilot in the left seat. If this person happens to be the owner of the aircraft or the person who rented the aircraft, it will take a lot to convince the FAA otherwise. If the left seat pilot wants to blame things on the right seat pilot, both pilots better agree to that, or there has to be a written agreement or witnesses to a verbal agreement.

On the other hand, if the aircraft is owned/rented by the pilot in the right seat and the left seat is occupied by a pilot qualified to be the PIC, things can get quite interesting if both pilots point the finger at the other. Since the FAA does not operate on the principle of innocent until proven guilty, I would suspect that they will cite both pilots as if each was the PIC. This only my speculation based on my perception of the FAAs attitude towards enforcement. I am not aware of any case law on this point.
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Old 04-13-2004, 02:13   #10
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If something bad happens, the FAA is also going to look at everyone's ratings and flight experience. For example, if i'm sitting in the back playing Tetris (i'm a CFI) and two private pilots are occupying the front seats and something happens, the FAA is going to slap me just as hard, if not harder, than the two private pilots because the FAA assumes I "know better" than to allow myself to be "unavailable" to help should a situation develop. That's part of being a CFI - I'm part of the equation whether i want to be or not. That also gives me an excuse to never have to ride in the back, plus i'll log the flight as dual given because unlike driving, i'm always trying to make the person with whom i'm sharing the cockpit more competent and safe by quizing and talking about the flight. I busted my ass for that license - yeah i'm gonna milk it.
Even when I fly somewhere with the owner of the airplane, i still ride shotgun and incorporate as much instruction as i can and that has never been a problem. i've learned that everyone who flys wants to learn more so they're happy to have free instruction and have no problem putting the wife in the back. If they thought otherwise i'd really have to consider putting my life in their hands
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Old 04-13-2004, 08:29   #11
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Thanks for all the replies. In this case, he is renting the plane and I want to assure him that I (I'll be left seat in a Piper Warrior for one leg of the trip) will be solely responsible should I deviate from any FAA regs. Basically, I want the blame on my shoulders, so I can fly the way that I prefer (which is with Flight Following). Yes, it is the stupidest argument ever but I'm one of those guys that just has to be right (or eventually get it right).
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Old 04-13-2004, 11:27   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by sushi600
but I'm one of those guys that just has to be right
Sorry to be so blunt, but please either have an immidiate change of attitude or get out of aviation so you do not increase the insurance rates for the rest of us. Yes, I am serious.
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Old 04-13-2004, 11:59   #13
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sushi,
If you are using flight following can they direct you through a TFR?? Or what happens if you fly thru it while under flight following? I've always thought that you could go thru other classes of airspace while under flight following and basically they see that you have approval to do so. Any idea?
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Old 04-13-2004, 13:14   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by 20pilot
Sorry to be so blunt, but please either have an immidiate change of attitude or get out of aviation so you do not increase the insurance rates for the rest of us. Yes, I am serious.
My tone wasn't meant to be one of arrogance, and considering that only part of the story was told I can see how you perceive it that way.
Basically, my definition of "right" is to make the flight the safest possible. I do not believe in taking shortcuts, and will always take the safest approach. I believe that when I have passengers on board, I am safest flying with flight following, as it is an extra set of eyes watching over me. This is what I consider to be "right." In this situation a fairly low time pilot is trying to talk me out of it, and though it may not be wrong, is something I probably will not give in to.
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Old 04-13-2004, 17:11   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by 20pilot

Quote:
As far as I know, you can both log PIC if one of you is under the hood and the other is acting as a safety pilot.


No you can not. If neither of them is an instructor, then only the sole manupilator of the controls can log PIC time.

The rules are different for instructors. Instructors get to log PIC any time they are instructing, which basically means any time they are sitting in the front seat.
This is not entirely correct.

If the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator of the controls they are allowed to log the time as PIC.

The since the flight is being conducted under simulated IMC the safety pilot is a "required crew memeber". The safety pilot must be at least a private pilot and must have a current medical. If the safety pilot also has the appropriate ratings/endorsements to be PIC of the plane and both pilots agree that the safety pilot is PIC, the safety pilot may ALSO log PIC time. If the safety pilot is not rated/endorsed the can still log SIC time.

Edited to add....
The safety pilot will not get to log the time taking off and landing where the left seater is not under the hood.
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Last edited by Wulfenite; 04-13-2004 at 17:25..
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Old 04-13-2004, 17:23   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by sushi600
He was worried that if I do flight following with him in the plane, and I screw up, we would both be in trouble.
BTW, If your buddy thinks flight following increases his "exposure" to "screw-ups" he's probably not someone you want to be flying with. If he's intimidated by Flight Following what's he going to do in a positive control airspace (besides avoid it). If he gets lost or has an emergency, is he going to avoid getting help from ATC?

ATC is not going to write you up for missing a flight following call. Worst you would get is "Radar services terminated, Squawk 1200".
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Old 04-13-2004, 18:38   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by 20pilot
No you can not. If neither of them is an instructor, then only the sole manupilator of the controls can log PIC time.

The rules are different for instructors. Instructors get to log PIC any time they are instructing, which basically means any time they are sitting in the front seat.
The FAA's position

From pg. 115 (emphasis added)
Quote:
Ref. 61.113(a) and 61.51(e)(iii); Yes, the Private Pilot who is serving as a safety pilot and is acting as the PIC may log the time as PIC flight time. And yes, that Private Pilot may use that PIC flight time for the furtherance of a pilot certificate and rating under Part 61. And no, that Private Pilot is not . . . . carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor is that Private Pilot acting as a pilot in command . . . for compensation or hire, . . . . when he serves as a safety pilot. In accordance with 91.109(b)(1), it permits a person who holds a Private Pilot Certificate with a category and class rating appropriate to the aircraft being flown to serve as a safety pilot.

And this answer has been reviewed by the FAAs Washington HQ Chief Counsel Office (AGC-240), and they have agreed with this answer.
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Old 04-18-2004, 14:42   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by sopdan
The FAA's position

From pg. 115 (emphasis added)
Very interesting. That was not my understanding. The issue comes up once in a while on most aviation forums and most posts are on the lines of "you can not do it," with several citing conversations with local FSDOs or coming from designated pilot examiners who should know, as they are supposed to examine the number of hours being claimed towards a rating. It is not really a big issue for me personally, as I have more than enough hours for any rating that I may want. Hence I have not paid much attention to it.

Last edited by 20pilot; 04-18-2004 at 14:44..
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Old 05-06-2004, 01:19   #19
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if you are instrument rated, and the second pilot has at least a private, and you are flying under the hood, both get PIC. easy nuff?
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