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Old 09-17-2006, 11:44   #251
Hugh Neal
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I would agree with most of what UK Pro Gun states; there is a general degree of apathy in the UK; people are encouraged to feel that the Police are the only arbiters of the law, and that self defence is a bad thing. Most Brits are incredibly "politically correct" - and doubly so in the media. One common reaction to the London 7/7 bombings of last year was "Why have Muslim youths become so disaffected with British society, and what can we do to help them feel integrated?"

The influence of the European Union and the dreaded "Human Rights Act" are everywhere. A thief running away after stealing a mobile telephone should not be apprehended by a public minded passer by, as "you might hurt him and get sued" or "you would be breaching his human rights if you detain him".

More of the same, and a few light hearted grumbles on my updated Blog here:

http://arthurpewtysmaggotsandwich.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-29-2006, 19:59   #252
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Some seem to think all is well in the UK. It's not my place to judge that for them. This does not change the fact that a Government depriving the citizenry of it's basic right to self defense, both against criminals and the Government itself, is oppression is its purest form, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. The beliefs some from the UK hold do not change the facts about the gun bans there, and the corresponding rise in gun violence, and violent crime in general. Living how you want is the right of any society. It doesn't change the facts, and the price paid for the dreams of those without a base in reality, or an even piddling knowledge of human nature.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:37   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vulthoom
Some seem to think all is well in the UK. It's not my place to judge that for them. This does not change the fact that a Government depriving the citizenry of it's basic right to self defense, both against criminals and the Government itself, is oppression is its purest form, whether anyone wants to believe it or not. The beliefs some from the UK hold do not change the facts about the gun bans there, and the corresponding rise in gun violence, and violent crime in general. Living how you want is the right of any society. It doesn't change the facts, and the price paid for the dreams of those without a base in reality, or an even piddling knowledge of human nature.
Try reading the thread again, hopefully you will understand.

Your statement highlighted in bold, shockingly enough, is the point. 90%+ of the population is quite happy living without US style gun laws. They wouldn't want them.

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Old 12-13-2006, 14:10   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Try reading the thread again, hopefully you will understand.

Your statement highlighted in bold, shockingly enough, is the point. 90%+ of the population is quite happy living without US style gun laws. They wouldn't want them.

Regards,
Tempest
So much for the God-given right of self defense then, eh? Because (insert percentage here) decide they don't want the ability to defend themselves is not a good enough reason to deny others the same. Matter of fact, denying another the right and ability to defend themselves is barbaric to say the least. In this way you have something in common with the islamofascists; barbarity.
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Old 12-13-2006, 14:15   #255
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The British Public has been brainwashed into being anti-gun
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Old 12-13-2006, 14:38   #256
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This was a very good post up until the part about voting for the BNP.
This is an extremely anti-Semitic, anti-Black organization. Similar to the fascists.

"The UK is now run by the EU, (European commission) which wants to run all of Europe. The UK government had already started to give up Britain's sovereignty years ago when we first joined the common market but the government knows that there is more to come. A lot MORE!

The main obstacle to this is the indigenous people, i.e., us Brits! So what is the solution? Easy, make sure that all subjects, and yes folks we are subjects, learn how to be good victims and put up with all manner of cr*p dished up by muggers, murderer's rapist etc.

To that end the government has taken away all rights to self defence let alone any tools for self defence, i.e. firearms. Children and adults alike have been indoctrinated into fearing the “evil” firearms and believe in the holy ghost of Police defence for Joe Public!

In the great plan, which is accepted with gusto by the UN, all subject of the grand state of Europe will be defenceless sheep with only the “right” people allowed to defend themselves. These consist mostly of Politicians and big business. What a surprise!

So what are we doing about this?

Well mostly nothing.

What can we do about this?

One of two things as I see it, of course this being the internet that makes me an expert

1: Emigrate. Hello USA I'm on my way!

2: Vote BNP, British National Party, who are the only party with the balls to do something about the state of the country of which the first thing is to get out of the European Commission, followed quickly by the reintroduction of the right to self defence with any tool you see fit to use which would INCLUDE firearms!

There is a lot more involved than just this but you start to see what is going wrong here. So people of America, a little advice. KEEP THE 2nd AMENDMENT, and say NO to immigration.
Er, except me of course. I'm one of the good guys


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Old 12-14-2006, 09:56   #257
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So, in a nutshell, anyone who doesn't share your views and opinions is an "islamofascist" (or even just a tame old, regular fascist) and a barbarian. Very good, it warms me to know you are happy to fling these terms around with a complete apparent lack of understanding. Put down the guns and pick up a dictionary. Then again, I have been "brainwashed", so what could I possibly know?

Is the vast majority of a population not wanting something not a good reason to...not have it? Perhaps instead we should bow to the minorities. Let the few hold sway over the many. I am confident the majority of the population has no desire to molest children, but I am almost certain you would agree that it would not be civilised to allow paedophilia.

If the British public has been "brainwashed" into being anti-gun, are you so sure you have not been brainwashed into being pro-gun? Of course you are sure. You are a Great American, with a god on your side.


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Old 12-14-2006, 10:02   #258
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No, I am British, but not proud of it anymore.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:49   #259
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
You are a Great American, with a god on your side.

Regards,
Tempest
In typical stile of the anti gunner you don’t let facts get in the way of your opinion. In fact it seems you don’t bother with facts. But then anties never do.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ian
No, I am British, but not proud of it anymore.
Ian, none of us are proud of all our countrymen. There are good, bad and just plain stupid in all cultures. Take heart in knowing you are a good man.

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to
do nothing." Edmund Burke
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Old 12-14-2006, 14:24   #260
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Anti-gunner? No. Not by a long way. As I have stated earlier in this thread, if I happened to have been born in the United States, or were to become a US citizen, I would most certainly exercise my right to own a firearm, and would defend the right to do so. As it happens I am not a US citizen. As far as Britons go, I am pro-gun. I am planning on applying for a Shotgun Certificate, and am looking into the possibility of a Firearms Certificate.

You make too many assumptions.

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Old 12-14-2006, 14:39   #261
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Thanks Jerry.
Oh, and by the way, when I was in England many years ago, molesting children seemed to be the most popular hobby for a lot of politicians.
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Old 12-14-2006, 14:50   #262
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ian
Thanks Jerry.
Oh, and by the way, when I was in England many years ago, molesting children seemed to be the most popular hobby for a lot of politicians.
Thank goodness, then, you have escaped to a country in which a corrupt politician has never been heard of.

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Old 12-14-2006, 15:25   #263
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Originally posted by Tempest UK
Thank goodness, then, you have escaped to a country in which a corrupt politician has never been heard of.

Regards,
Tempest
[sarcasm]So is it the fact that you are anti gun that has made your politicians corrupt or has your corrupt politicians made you anti gun?[/sarcasm]

While all countries have corrupt politicians not all politicians are corrupt and that fact has nothing to do making a person illogical when it comes to gun control. Fact is, while some people are comfortable letting their government be their nanny and are willing to be victims of criminals some of us are not. Our Constitution acknowledges that we don’t have to be victimized. I notice the English / you always us the word civilized when it comes to allowing criminals to have the advantage. If that’s being civilized I’m glad I’m a savage.

By the way, if my wife and I had been civilized / unarmed in 1971 she would have been raped and we both would be dead. That’s what we get for being uncivilized and carrying a gun.
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Old 12-15-2006, 16:17   #264
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
So, in a nutshell, anyone who doesn't share your views and opinions is an "islamofascist" (or even just a tame old, regular fascist) and a barbarian. Very good, it warms me to know you are happy to fling these terms around with a complete apparent lack of understanding. Put down the guns and pick up a dictionary. Then again, I have been "brainwashed", so what could I possibly know?

Is the vast majority of a population not wanting something not a good reason to...not have it? Perhaps instead we should bow to the minorities. Let the few hold sway over the many. I am confident the majority of the population has no desire to molest children, but I am almost certain you would agree that it would not be civilised to allow paedophilia.

If the British public has been "brainwashed" into being anti-gun, are you so sure you have not been brainwashed into being pro-gun? Of course you are sure. You are a Great American, with a god on your side.


Regards,
Tempest
(failing in attempt to ignore Tempest's infantile comments)
I don't know how you got from the statement I made to the answer you give above. ??? Please take a reading comprehension course and get back with me upon successful completion.

I'll be over here with my one true God.
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Old 12-15-2006, 16:22   #265
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That post was in response to both your, and Ian's comments. Seeing as I am clearly incapable of comprehending them myself, would you care to explain the remarks in your previous post?

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Tempest
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Old 12-15-2006, 16:50   #266
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
That post was in response to both your, and Ian's comments. Seeing as I am clearly incapable of comprehending them myself, would you care to explain the remarks in your previous post?

Regards,
Tempest
Ok, my original:
Quote:
Origianally posted by Jeff82
So much for the God-given right of self defense then, eh? Because (insert percentage here) decide they don't want the ability to defend themselves is not a good enough reason to deny others the same. Matter of fact, denying another the right and ability to defend themselves is barbaric to say the least. In this way you have something in common with the islamofascists; barbarity.
and yours:
Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
So, in a nutshell, anyone who doesn't share your views and opinions is an "islamofascist" (or even just a tame old, regular fascist) and a barbarian. Very good, it warms me to know you are happy to fling these terms around with a complete apparent lack of understanding. Put down the guns and pick up a dictionary. Then again, I have been "brainwashed", so what could I possibly know?

Is the vast majority of a population not wanting something not a good reason to...not have it? Perhaps instead we should bow to the minorities. Let the few hold sway over the many. I am confident the majority of the population has no desire to molest children, but I am almost certain you would agree that it would not be civilised to allow paedophilia.
Where do you get this "share your views/opinions" idea? I never got close to suggesting that or of suggesting that those who didn't (share my views) were islamofacsists. You have completely twisted this around into something completely different than what was originally written and intended. The comparison was that islamofascists (barbarians-we can argue about terms later- you know who we're talking about when I use this term) and people that force other people to give up any ability to defend themselves (either through outlawing the proper tools or even the use of "self defense" as a defense) are also "barbaric." Picture any woman having to undergo any treatment by any criminal because 1. she, by law, had no means to resist and 2. she is held criminally responsible for any action she takes in the name of self defense because self defense itself has been outlawed. You (your country) is forcing the victimization of an entire people because of this anti-self defense position.

I didn't "fling" the term. I made a comparison and justified it in the above paragraph.

In your second paragraph I have no idea what you're talking about. I addressed one issue, the inalienable right to defend yourself. I don't care what other isssue you bring up to vote on. The ability to defend oneself isn't a "votable" issue.
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Last edited by Jeff82; 12-15-2006 at 17:03..
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Old 12-15-2006, 17:06   #267
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First of all, thank you, Jeff, for a good, helpful response

You have clarified a lot for me, however I still disagree with the comparison to "islamofascists". Suppose, for a moment, I do agree that the restriction of firearms is barbaric. The likening to islamofascists is still pointless, and it seems to be a buzz word inserted with little care in order to appear shocking. You could liken Father Christmas to Hitler because they both had facial hair in common, but this doesn't mean it is a fair or worthwhile comparison.

I would also disagree with the use of the word "barbaric", but thank you for explaining your reasoning behind using it. Although I do not agree with you here, I respect your opinion.

One final point I would like addressing, either by you or by anyone else: my earlier question of whether "the vast majority of a population not wanting something" is not a good reason to have it. Without creating a circular argument in suggested the British have all been "brainwashed", is it not more democratic to uphold the wishes of the majority?

Regards,
Tempest
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Old 12-15-2006, 17:13   #268
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So what's the bottom line? Is violent crime lower in places where law abiding folks may carry a gun, or is that a myth?

Maybe compare Dallas to Baltimore to London???
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Old 12-15-2006, 17:34   #269
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK


One final point I would like addressing, either by you or by anyone else: my earlier question of whether "the vast majority of a population not wanting something" is not a good reason to have it. Without creating a circular argument in suggested the British have all been "brainwashed", is it not more democratic to uphold the wishes of the majority?

Regards,
Tempest
Hello Tempest,
As far as I am aware the latest restriction,
of firearms owenership in the UK was the handgun ban in 1997,
this was not directly atributed to the vast majority of the population voting for a ban on handguns.

There was no vote on that!

It was a vocal Minority,
making cynical use of the events at Dunblane,
assisted by the tabloid media wanting to sell newspapers,
and the Labour party and Tony Blairs wanting to,
swing an election victory,
and then stick the boot into,
a whole section of very law abiding British people.

But the British handgun shooting lobby was pretty small,
so their rights did not matter....



If this kind of treatment had been dished out to any other British Minority group, there would have been public and media outrage!



Dave.
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Old 12-15-2006, 17:37   #270
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
First of all, thank you, Jeff, for a good, helpful response
You're welcome.

Quote:
You have clarified a lot for me, however I still disagree with the comparison to "islamofascists". Suppose, for a moment, I do agree that the restriction of firearms is barbaric. The likening to islamofascists is still pointless, and it seems to be a buzz word inserted with little care in order to appear shocking. You could liken Father Christmas to Hitler because they both had facial hair in common, but this doesn't mean it is a fair or worthwhile comparison.
Ok, I'll conceed this point. The "common factor" was the barbarity. I wasn't trying to say you Brits and the terrorists were/are the same, only that in respect to allowing the defenseless to be victimized is a barbarous act (of omission). As barbarous as what the terrs do. Ever watch UFC (Ultimate Fighting)? Picture that only add weapons (knives, bats, tire irons, guns, etc.) to the guy winning and then change the loser guy with one of your relatives. This is reality in any major city (and many other places) for many people and it's not right. Because it isn't "in our face" we can look the other way but for the victim it's a horrifying life changing, possibly life ending event. The fact that this is occurring in a "civilized" society is even worse.
Quote:

I would also disagree with the use of the word "barbaric", but thank you for explaining your reasoning behind using it. Although I do not agree with you here, I respect your opinion.

One final point I would like addressing, either by you or by anyone else: my earlier question of whether "the vast majority of a population not wanting something" is not a good reason to have it. Without creating a circular argument in suggested the British have all been "brainwashed", is it not more democratic to uphold the wishes of the majority?

Regards,
Tempest
I didn't make the "brainwashed" comment so I'll not comment on it here. Here's where we end up in trouble; a "democracy" is in actuality nothing more than "mob rule" and should be avoided at all costs. That's why the US is (was) a "constitutional republic" a fact that our socialist education system has been hard at work trying to undermine for many years now. This whole "one man one vote" garbage is the mantra of that. You figure out what the right principles are then uphold them regardless of what the masses want. If 51% of the people decide to rape your wife/daughter does that mean that it should be allowed? How about every Friday any money in your bank account is automatically sent to registered homeless illegal drug users? If 51% vote for it it must be right, right? There is only one true standard in the west, Judeo-Christian values on which all our laws, including English common law are based. We deviate from them at our own peril.

Cheers.
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Old 12-15-2006, 19:34   #271
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
Try reading the thread again, hopefully you will understand.

Your statement highlighted in bold, shockingly enough, is the point. 90%+ of the population is quite happy living without US style gun laws. They wouldn't want them.

Regards,
Tempest
I don't need to read the thread again. Don't try to insinuate I don't understand, or that I am a dummy. I know exactly what you are saying. You are saying that the U.K. is a nanny society, who chooses to remove the responsibility of self-defense, freedom, and self guidance from its shoulders. It seeks protection through its government. So be it. If the surfs choose to live that way, thats fine. You will wish for your guns one day, trust me.

Also, I don't believe your 90% numbers. I don't even believe that a majority of Brits chose to live this way. I think they had no choice. I think people like you made that decision for them, and told them it was for their own good. But that isn't oppressive, right?
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Old 12-15-2006, 19:48   #272
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Without creating a circular argument in suggested the British have all been "brainwashed", is it not more democratic to uphold the wishes of the majority?

Regards,
Tempest

No, it is not. The rights of all, are inherent and natural. They are inalienable. Rights cannot be stripped away by a simple vote in a free society. Yes, things can be changed. But it should be exceedingly difficult. Making rights into nothing more than a simple majority vote is profane.
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Old 12-15-2006, 23:20   #273
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK

One final point I would like addressing, either by you or by anyone else: my earlier question of whether "the vast majority of a population not wanting something" is not a good reason to have it. Without creating a circular argument in suggested the British have all been "brainwashed", is it not more democratic to uphold the wishes of the majority?

Regards,
Tempest
“If, by the mere force of numbers, a majority should ever deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify revolution—certainly would, if such a right were a vital one.”
Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, March, 1861

In the case of the majority wanting to take the right of a person to protect themselves and the tools to do so, I would have to say the answer to your question is a resounding NO.
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:33   #274
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry
“If, by the mere force of numbers, a majority should ever deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify revolution—certainly would, if such a right were a vital one.”
Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, March, 1861
This really gets to the heart of the matter right here. However, I'd correct good old Abe by striking out "clearly written constitutional" and inserting "inalienable". Now you have a statement that almost all Americans agree with, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum or how they feel about guns. We spend a lot of time debating whether this or that item does or does not belong on that list of "inalienable rights" that are properly off-limits even to an overwhelming majority of public opinion, but we're pretty united in the belief that such rights do exist.

Based on the statements in this topic and many others I've seen on various sites over the years, I don't think most of our British cousins share that outlook.

As to guns, Americans pretty much divide into those who think armed self-defense is on the list, and those who think it isn't and all guns should be banned. The former seem to be in the majority at the moment, although there is a broad spectrum within that majority as to the exact extent of the right - almost anybody who agrees that the right exists at all would accept a .38 revolver as covered, and I know some who would assert that a Stinger missile is covered (you never know when a black helicopter full of blue beanie-clad stormtroopers is going to head for your roof...)
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Old 12-16-2006, 12:22   #275
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barnacle_Bill
This really gets to the heart of the matter right here. However, I'd correct good old Abe by striking out "clearly written constitutional" and inserting "inalienable".
I agree. When I read that quote the IX amendment comes to mind.

For those that don’t know what that is…

"Amendment IX:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

I think good old Abe suffered from the same malady as most who takes an oath to uphold the Constitution. They somehow have gotten the misguided impression that the Constitution “grants” us our rights rather than ACKNOWLEDGES them an forbids the government from denying them.
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