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Old 09-07-2005, 16:32   #51
hokieglock
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that was a very interesting read. it's amazing with all our similarities that were still very different.
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Old 09-07-2005, 16:35   #52
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Well, I'm not sure I'd agree with that, but hey, life would be boring of everyone agreed, wouldn't it?! lol!

Bed time for me. Maybe we'll continue with this later......

Good night. ;f
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Old 09-07-2005, 16:36   #53
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later
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Old 09-07-2005, 16:36   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by hokieglock
that was a very interesting read. it's amazing with all our similarities that were still very different.

You've hit the nail on the head there my friend! Exactly my original point.
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Old 09-08-2005, 07:39   #55
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Tommy T

2 Questions please.
How would you expect a 75 year old lady to defend herself?
Do you honestly believe that if someone feels it important to protect their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones, and are willing to undergo psychological tests, and receive extensive training, they still should not be allowed to carry tools of self defense?
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Old 09-08-2005, 10:55   #56
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Re: Tommy T

Quote:
Originally posted by Ian

How would you expect a 75 year old lady to defend herself?
What does this have to do with guns?

My own grandmother was mugged about 7 years ago. She was struck by a drug addict from behind who stole her bag to get his next fix.
The guy was caught by the police and imprisoned. Are you saying she should have been able to carry a gun, just in case Mickey Mugger might decide to pick her as his next victim? Absolute rubbish. Bad people target the most vulnerable members of society in every country, not just here. The difference is, you're much more likely to get mugged by an armed mugger in the US than you are here.

We did have the right to have guns here, although only for recreational use, not self protection. ALL weapons had to be kept in gun safes which were regularly checked by police during spot check inspections. If a hand gun was ever found on a bedside table, loaded and ready to go, the owner could expect a huge fine, loss of gun licence, and maybe even a stay at Her Majesty's hotel.
The reasons those rights were taken away have already been stated. It was deemed that the risks were too great.
So you don't agree with it. Fine. But it was a universally popular decision and it had the full support of the population. Like I said, you have your rules we have ours.

Like they say in the US, "love it or leave it"

To be honest I get sick and tired of people slagging my country off. If they don't agree with our rules, fine, don't come here. Just remember the ones who are always the first to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with America when it all kicks off, even when it puts us in the firing line of the terrorists. Why do we do it? Simple. It's the right thing to do.

Guns simply are not part of life for the vast majority of people in the UK and that is the difference. A good example of where the wheels fall off is the recent events in New Orleans. We've all seen the images on TV where criminals were engaging police and military in open street gunfights. Not a good situation, and one I am grateful we never see here.

Like I said, I'm not here to critise US laws. I love America. I enjoy visiting it, and find the people to be one of the warmest, friendliest bunch of folks anywhere in the world. I'm simply trying to set the record straight after reading some of the previous posts.

Tom.
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Last edited by TommyT; 09-08-2005 at 11:05..
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Old 09-08-2005, 11:12   #57
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What does this have to do with guns?

Everything.
If a criminal knows that the victim might be carrying a firearm, and/or able to defend themselves they will think twice before attacking.

I posted two questions, as I am interested in your opinion as a British subject, and police officer.
If you have the time, would you please answer them.
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Old 09-08-2005, 11:14   #58
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Yeah, ok. I'll post later as I'm off out now.
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Old 09-11-2005, 16:24   #59
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Not ALL Brits are anti gun!

This one is VERY pro gun. A lot of my friends also would not only like their weapons back but the right to use them for self defense!

Tommy T:
Quote:
The reasons those rights were taken away have already been stated. It was deemed that the risks were too great.
So you don't agree with it. Fine. But it was a universally popular decision and it had the full support of the population. Like I said, you have your rules we have ours.
The ban sure as hell didn't get MY support. No way was it a "universally popular decision".:(

The UK has changed forever and I don't think the gun laws, or the "rights to self defense" will ever change back. Time for my family and I to leave the country. Which is exectly what we are doing.

There are a lot of Brits who feel the same as I, hey some of them are living in the US right now ;? Don't think that all Brits are bleeding heart liberals who would rather talk to the BG's and try to see their point of view ;5 Talk maybe cheap but .45's are more cost effective



Off the box now, have a nice day. TTFN...
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:14   #60
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Re: Not ALL Brits are anti gun!

[QUOTE]Time for my family and I to leave the country. Which is exectly what we are doing.QUOTE]

Bye then.

FYI, I'm not anti gun. As I have already said, I enjoy hunting. I have both a shotgun licence and a firearms licence.
I own a bolt action hunting rifle which I use to hunt deer, and a shotgun which I use in competitions.
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:17   #61
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So it's ok to shoot an inocent deer, but not someone intent on taking your life or your childs life?
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:21   #62
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Originally posted by Ian
So it's ok to shoot an inocent deer, but not someone intent on taking your life or your childs life?
I give up.
Look, I didn't come on here to justify or argue the whys and wherefors of English law, I was just trying to inform people as to why they were implemented.

It's obvious I'm wasting my time. ;Q
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:26   #63
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I apologize.
I wasn't serious.
I just believe strongly in self defense.
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:31   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ian
I apologize.
I wasn't serious.
I just believe strongly in self defense.
And so you should. So do I in fact.
However, what you must understand is that our cultures are very different.
You have the right to have a gun for self defence. For the US, and the way it has developed since conception, that right it is proportional and appropriate. For the UK, it isn't.

As I have stated, most of the police here don't have a gun! Ask yourself the question why that is....
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:37   #65
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Well before I left England, one officer I knew that was working in the Royal Mews, said that he wanted to give back his handgun. When I asked him why, he said that he hadn't received enough training.
I was shocked to find out that he only trained twice a year.;P
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Old 09-12-2005, 14:43   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ian
Well before I left England, one officer I knew that was working in the Royal Mews, said that he wanted to give back his handgun. When I asked him why, he said that he hadn't received enough training.
I was shocked to find out that he only trained twice a year.;P

Believe me, it is very different now. British Police firearms teams are amongst the best, most highly trained anywhere in the world.

May I recommend the book "The good guys wear black" by Steve Collins.
A very good read which gives a good insight into SO19 (The Metropolitan Police's 'SWAT' team). Very interesting.
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Old 09-12-2005, 15:04   #67
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Thank you.
I will.
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Old 09-12-2005, 15:07   #68
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Just checked - it is sold on Amazon.co.uk

A riveting read. ;f

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Last edited by TommyT; 09-12-2005 at 15:15..
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Old 09-13-2005, 07:53   #69
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What about the criminals?

Hello, TommyT,

The press reports that your criminals did not disarm with the general population in the UK, and as a result, violent crime and gun crime have risen a great deal. Is this true? If so, how do the authorities plan to deal with this unanticipated, but predictable, consequence? Further, we've heard that a great many more Bobbies are now issued firearms for routine carry while on duty.

In the U.S., the police have no responsibility to respond to a citizen in distress. It seems that it's entirely discretionary, and many of our law enforcement personnel are engaged primarily in taking reports after the fact. Is this the case in the UK?

Finally, your borders seems to be nearly as porous as those of the U.S. If you can't keep uncountable kilotons of drugs out of the UK, how will you keep a couple of million guns per year out of the hands of criminals in your country?

Respectfully,

Ken Kabar
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Old 09-13-2005, 15:11   #70
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Re: What about the criminals?

Quote:
Originally posted by SgtKabar
Hello, TommyT,

The press reports that your criminals did not disarm with the general population in the UK, and as a result, violent crime and gun crime have risen a great deal. Is this true? If so, how do the authorities plan to deal with this unanticipated, but predictable, consequence? Further, we've heard that a great many more Bobbies are now issued firearms for routine carry while on duty.

In the U.S., the police have no responsibility to respond to a citizen in distress. It seems that it's entirely discretionary, and many of our law enforcement personnel are engaged primarily in taking reports after the fact. Is this the case in the UK?

Finally, your borders seems to be nearly as porous as those of the U.S. If you can't keep uncountable kilotons of drugs out of the UK, how will you keep a couple of million guns per year out of the hands of criminals in your country?

Respectfully,

Ken Kabar
Some good questions, which I will answer to the best of my ability.
Naturally, the criminal element who had guns before the ban continue to have guns today. I wouldn't say gun crime has increased though.
In my 2 years as an officer I have not been involved in a firearms incident (that's not, of course, to say I wont.)

Bad guys who have always had guns, always will have guns.
It's interesting to point out that armed robberies (involving [real] guns) have decreased a great deal since their peak in the 70's.


Our responsiblies. Hmm perhaps it would be useful to show you the oath all officers must swear in front of a magistrate and cheif police officer to become a cop.......

"I , [Name], of [Town of residence], do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will to the best of my power cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law."

The oath is the same regardless of the force or if the officer is a regular constable or special constable (volunteer police officers (who have exactly the same powers as regulars))


When you say someone in "distress" I take it you mean someone in immediate danger or threat of attack?
If so, then yes, naturally we are duty bound to render aid. The key phrase in the oath is "prevent all offences against people and property"
As police officers we have a duty of care under the Human Rights Act to help people in distress (this obviously doesnt mean we'll pull out all the stops just because someone has missed the bus!)

As for the porous borders, yes I will agree things could be better. However we do have the advantage of being an island. I'm certainly not a Tony Blair fan (my vote is for the other guy!)The government are getting a hard time here because of illegal immigration and keep telling us they are going to improve things. That remains to be seen. The latest idea is to set up a national "border police." Like I said, remains to be seen, but I am sceptical.
As for the guns, well market force drive the imports. If the market is there then I suppose the importers will always find away. However, like I have said, the market really isn't there. Much more of a problem is knife crime. There seems to have been a recent explosion of knife crime in the UK. Most UK officers (including myself) wear kevlar body armour to counteract this threat. It's much more of a problem than guns.
That and street violence due to binge drinking. Friday and saturday night violence because of drink is bread and butter stuff to me. I'm convinced British cops deal with more "full-on brawls" and public order incidents than any other police service in the world. It is a truly national problem. I've turned into quite a slugger! ;f

Regards,

Tom.
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Old 09-13-2005, 16:36   #71
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Looks like it's about to get even stricter..........

SKY NEWS;Q
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Old 09-23-2005, 14:52   #72
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Well, here's my first post on this forum for a couple of years (sorry for being away for such a long time chaps!)

TommyT - I would guess that you are a copper from a rural area, not having come across gun crime in the last couple of years on the beat. I surmise that you are based somewhere out in the sticks.

I am an (after the gun ban) ex Glock 17 (serial no. AVB 820) owner based in North Kent / South East London, and I can tell you that unlicenced firearms, mainly from the former Communist countries are rife. I too would welcome the chance to carry a pistol for self defence - "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six".
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Old 09-23-2005, 15:24   #73
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TommyT - I would guess that you are a copper from a rural area, not having come across gun crime in the last couple of years on the beat. I surmise that you are based somewhere out in the sticks.
Indeed I am, and very near you!;f
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Old 09-23-2005, 15:30   #74
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I can tell you that unlicenced firearms, mainly from the former Communist countries are rife.
You don't need to tell me mate. I may be in the sticks, but I've not got my head in the cow pats! However, unless you take into account shootings in metropolitan areas, gun crime throughout the UK is minimal. As I have already said, knives are much more of a problem.
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Old 09-24-2005, 10:14   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by TommyT
You don't need to tell me mate. I may be in the sticks, but I've not got my head in the cow pats! However, unless you take into account shootings in metropolitan areas, gun crime throughout the UK is minimal. As I have already said, knives are much more of a problem.
Perhaps a nationwide ban on them would solve that problem. Besides government butchers, doctors and the like why would a mere commoner need a knife?;f
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