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Old 11-17-2005, 21:31   #101
SgtKabar
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More's the pity, you blokes. Kubrick's prophetic A Clockwork Orange looms. But fret not, the colonies will catch up in due course.
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Old 11-19-2005, 02:46   #102
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Women Police officers shot in Bradford yesterday.

Two unarmed female Police officers were shot whilst investigating a robbery in Bradford (Yorkshire, Northern England) yesterday. Details here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4451508.stm

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Old 11-19-2005, 03:56   #103
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Re: Women Police officers shot in Bradford yesterday.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
Two unarmed female Police officers were shot whilst investigating a robbery in Bradford (Yorkshire, Northern England) yesterday. Details here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4451508.stm

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Not to be disrespectful, but, **** happens! I don't know how passing any more laws will help, but I expect you Brits will have a try!
How about bringing the power of the ASBO up a notch? Just imagine, the "SUPER ASBO"!
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Old 11-19-2005, 04:18   #104
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Swamsniper - this might be a common occurrence in the US, but in the UK it is front page news - on TV they even broke into regular programming with news flashes. TommyT is correct that it is not something you see very often. A cop was murdered by an ex - US Marine a couple of years ago, and when the BG was sentenced was told he would NEVER come out of prison. Gun crime is spreading rapidly in the UK, and there seems to be nothing to be done to stop it; when the hand gun ban came into force eight years ago, the Police officer who confiscated my G17 and equipment said that from now on, only the bad guys would be armed - and how prophetic that was!
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Old 11-22-2005, 07:48   #105
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reloading supplies banned as well?

From another site...

[Article] UK to ban reloading components.
postamble: We have received the following article printed by the Yorkshire Post:


Gun loophole is closed by mother's campaign
Tools to produce homemade ammunition for firearms to be included in new anti-crime bill
Simon McGee
Political Editor
THE LEGAL loophole that allowed the killer of Leeds police officer Ian Broadhurst to produce home-made bullets is set to be shut tight by MPs today after a tireless campaign in Yorkshire.
Ex-US Marine David Bieber was jailed for life last December for gunning down the 34-year-old policeman in cold blood on Boxing Day, 2003, and firing at two other officers using a pistol loaded with ammunition made from components that had been bought completely legally.
The purchase and possession of ready-made ammunition without a firearms licence is illegal, but, as the Yorkshire Post revealed last year, no licence is needed to buy bullet presses, cartridge cases, primers and powder over the counter.
During Bieber's trial, Mr Justice Moses said it was "completely barmy" that the killer had legally bought a Dillon RL550 bullet press and re-loader from a Hertfordshire gunshop that he had used to manufacture thousands of bullets in a home-made weapons factory in a Leeds lock-up.
PC Broadhurst's mother Cindy Eaton backed by the Police Federation and PC Broadhurst's MP, Batley and Spen's Mike Wood launched a high-profile campaign in the Yorkshire Post for a ban on the unrestricted sale of bullet-pressing kits and primers the essential mini-detonators which set off the propellant in a round.
Following Bieber's conviction, the MP called directly on the Prime Minister to change the law.
His pleas are set to come to fruition today, as MPs give their final approval to the Violent Crime Reduction Bill, which will make buying components subject to the same restrictions as buying firearms.
Clause 28 of the Bill will make it an offence to sell primers to anyone without a firearm licence and Clause 29 will ban cartridge and bullet presses.
Ms Eaton said last night: "We're thrilled at the progress that has been made and look forward to these measures becoming law.
"It's nice to think that something like this can come of Ian's death and that a loophole we weren't aware of previously can be closed."
Mr Wood was delighted that what he called a "lethal historical anomaly" would finally come to an end and that Ms Eaton's successful campaign may well have prevented someone else falling victim to home-made bullets.
"Enacting legislation can be a long and drawn out process often it has to be but these restrictions on bullet-making components are well worth the wait," he said.
"The Bill should change the law so the components of ammunition are treated in the same way as firearms."
The Violent Crime Bill also tackles the possession of knives, the availability of replica guns and the establishment of alcohol disorder zones in which licensed premises would have to contribute to the additional policing and local costs of alcohol-induced crime.
West Yorkshire Police Federation chairman Tom McGhie representing rank and file officers praised the success of Ms Eaton's campaign on what he called an absolutely ridiculous lack of controls.
"We believe it's totally right that people cannot legally buy the sort of equipment that he used to assemble bullets," he said.
"Bieber made literally thousands and it was always disgraceful that there had been no control on the materials and machines to make these sorts of bullets.
"It's quite right that this ban should be in place."
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:31   #106
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Freddo,this leaves me speechless, but only because I don't want to be banned from the forum!
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Old 11-27-2005, 07:04   #107
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Air weapons next?

On top of that, there is serious talk from the UK Government that they want to increase the licencing requirements for air guns to the same level as shot guns. This will make a majority of .177 and .22 air weapons illegal (anything with over 12lb/ft already requires a full Firearms certificate). Basicallly the only kind of gun permitted fairly readily in the UK is a single or double barrelled shotgun - and to get one of these you need to have "good reason" (farmer or clay pigeon shooter) and be subject to a couple of police home checks - at least that was how it was before the 1996 total handgun ban - TommyT can no doubt confirm any changes.

Oh - and another thing - the UK is due to host the 2012 Olympic games; none of the Modern Pentathalon events can be held here, as they require .22 pistol shooting; fullbore pistols of all types are completely illegal here, so I don't know how they are going to deal with events including shooting.
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Old 11-27-2005, 07:36   #108
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Re: Air weapons next?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hugh Neal
On top of that, there is serious talk from the UK Government that they want to increase the licencing requirements for air guns to the same level as shot guns. This will make a majority of .177 and .22 air weapons illegal (anything with over 12lb/ft already requires a full Firearms certificate). Basicallly the only kind of gun permitted fairly readily in the UK is a single or double barrelled shotgun - and to get one of these you need to have "good reason" (farmer or clay pigeon shooter) and be subject to a couple of police home checks - at least that was how it was before the 1996 total handgun ban - TommyT can no doubt confirm any changes.

Oh - and another thing - the UK is due to host the 2012 Olympic games; none of the Modern Pentathalon events can be held here, as they require .22 pistol shooting; fullbore pistols of all types are completely illegal here, so I don't know how they are going to deal with events including shooting.

Hugh is correct. To get a shotgun licence in the UK, the police first have to carry out full criminal record checks and visit the person in his home. Anyone wishing to have a shotgun will need good reason. Regular licencing spot checks are also carried out after a licence has been issued to ensure compliance with legislation regarding storage and security at the premises.

As for the pentahlon events at the 2012 Olympics, Hugh raises an interesting question. I don't know what they have planned. I do know that British competitors for these events have had to train outside the UK, in Europe, prior to competition.
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Old 12-02-2005, 01:12   #109
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you're wrong.

that is to say, the british method of gun control is logically, actually, contrary to the stated goals of less violent crime.

wrong.

for you. not because i say so. because it removes the responsibility for self defense from the individual and places that on the state..

which is incompetent.

not YOUR state particularly. but any state.

self defense is 'SELF' .. not government. government isn't THERE.

so it's wrong. badly misguided. Stark Raving Loony. over the top.

as is the attempt to do similarly here (a few places) .. it Don't Work.

thank you, btw, for PROVING it don't work. keep it up another 10 years, if you please. better'n it being US that pays that price.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:37   #110
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First post here

In regards to 2012, I beieve (I could have sowrn I heard this but I can't be certain) that although certain teams have had to travel abroad to train, events that reguire "illegal" firearms will still be permitted to take place. I can't see us striving so hard ot get the Olympics to be held here then decide to write off several events.

On a more general note, as it has been said before, despite the similarities between US and UK culture, the two can't be compared when it comes to gun control. If legislation was passed today allowing the same or similar firearms laws as the US, it would not be a good thing for the UK. It would be introducing something totally foreign into our culture, and it would be immediately exploited by criminals and opposed by the vast majority of the general public.

I myself would like our attitudes to guns to be closer to what it is in the US, but it just isn't practical. If I ever moed to the states, as I would one day like to do (not based on the gun control) then I would certainly choose to own firearms. On that note, for those in the know, where would I stand in regards to purchasing and possibly carrying a firearm in the US if I had moved there from abroad, assuming I had become a full US citizen etc? Would it be any different to someone who had lives there all their lives?

Gun control in the UK IS getting stricter, and now a bill has been passed banning the import, sale and manufacture of replica firearms (this includes items such as deactivated firearms, but leaves air rifles and shotguns untouched). So, soon, toy guns won't be legal, let alone "real steal" weapons.

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Old 12-07-2005, 15:00   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
First post here

In regards to 2012, I beieve (I could have sowrn I heard this but I can't be certain) that although certain teams have had to travel abroad to train, events that reguire "illegal" firearms will still be permitted to take place. I can't see us striving so hard ot get the Olympics to be held here then decide to write off several events.

On a more general note, as it has been said before, despite the similarities between US and UK culture, the two can't be compared when it comes to gun control. If legislation was passed today allowing the same or similar firearms laws as the US, it would not be a good thing for the UK. It would be introducing something totally foreign into our culture, and it would be immediately exploited by criminals and opposed by the vast majority of the general public.

I myself would like our attitudes to guns to be closer to what it is in the US, but it just isn't practical. If I ever moed to the states, as I would one day like to do (not based on the gun control) then I would certainly choose to own firearms. On that note, for those in the know, where would I stand in regards to purchasing and possibly carrying a firearm in the US if I had moved there from abroad, assuming I had become a full US citizen etc? Would it be any different to someone who had lives there all their lives?

Gun control in the UK IS getting stricter, and now a bill has been passed banning the import, sale and manufacture of replica firearms (this includes items such as deactivated firearms, but leaves air rifles and shotguns untouched). So, soon, toy guns won't be legal, let alone "real steal" weapons.

Regards,
Tempest
At last, someone who talks with some sense.
To be honest I'm totally bored with most on here b itching about our way of life in the UK, when in fact, most have absolutely no idea about life here. You don't like it? Fine, don't come here, you wont be missed.
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Old 12-07-2005, 15:21   #112
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To be fair, you have to have really grown up here to understand it. Because it has been such a core part of the USA since it came into being, the right to bear arms is taken for granted. So when someone in the US looks at the UK, it will obviously seen totally alien to them.

If I had the power to do so, I would make the law more flexible for sport shooters (eg so our Olympic pistol shooters can train here, and make it easier for others to get into the sport). I'd hesitate to do so, but I would perhaps increase the number of armed police.

I'm a keen airsofter (airsoft replicas being the only way for me to really satisfy my interest in guns) and so the Violent Crime Reduction Bill banning such replicas has really hit me hard. Knee jerk legislation if I ever saw it. So again, that could, in my eyes, be changed.

As for a feeling of life here in relation to the need to carry a gun: I have very rarely felt threatened in public to the point where I felt the need to defend myself with anything more than my trusty pair of legs to run away, and if need be my feet and fists.

Interesting to have read your contributions to the thread, Tommy T, especially considering you're career
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Old 12-07-2005, 15:31   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tempest UK
To be fair, you have to have really grown up here to understand it. Because it has been such a core part of the USA since it came into being, the right to bear arms is taken for granted. So when someone in the US looks at the UK, it will obviously seen totally alien to them.

If I had the power to do so, I would make the law more flexible for sport shooters (eg so our Olympic pistol shooters can train here, and make it easier for others to get into the sport). I'd hesitate to do so, but I would perhaps increase the number of armed police.

I'm a keen airsofter (airsoft replicas being the only way for me to really satisfy my interest in guns) and so the Violent Crime Reduction Bill banning such replicas has really hit me hard. Knee jerk legislation if I ever saw it. So again, that could, in my eyes, be changed.

As for a feeling of life here in relation to the need to carry a gun: I have very rarely felt threatened in public to the point where I felt the need to defend myself with anything more than my trusty pair of legs to run away, and if need be my feet and fists.

Interesting to have read your contributions to the thread, Tommy T, especially considering you're career
I totally agree mate. I am a keen hunter (generally deer) and also seem to spend my life shooting at clays! ;f I hold both a shotgun and firearms licence.
It just frustrates me with the attitudes on this site. All I read is "self defence" and it is getting somewhat tiresome. I only really started to post on here in the hope of somehow trying to pass on a balanced view on why things in the UK are the way they are.
Ultimately and unfortunately, I have failed. You can't win 'em all ;Q

In the meantime, I'll continue to go out there and do my bit for queen and country
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Old 12-13-2005, 17:04   #114
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Hiya. Interesting thread. I hope we can all maintain our respect for one another and continue the discussion dispassionately.

I wanted to add an anecdote: Seems a writer - a "gun guy" - was mugged some years ago while, of all things, taking out the trash! When confronted by his Friends who basically asked, "HEY!! You're a GUN GUY!! WTF?!?", he replied that he was only taking out the trash, and didn't think he'd need a gun. What came out of that was that you carried a pistol when you didn't think you'd need it...it was an emergency contingency. If you had reason to believe you'd need to be armed, you'd bring two rifles and a shotgun, and all your friends who had guns, preferably with pissy attitudes. The pistol was for just-in-case-but-I-don't-really-think-so occasions - basically, all the time.

Hey, Brits: Thanks for sticking by us.
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Old 12-17-2005, 19:33   #115
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I just read on that site an article by some guy who said that arming the British police would INCREASE the risk to them. I find this mind boggling.
While I understand that you gentlemen (and ladies) have a different attitude from Americans towards firearms, crime, hunting, and self defence that is cultural, I still find it impossible to comprehend how arming the police, especially the female officers that are made the point of the article, would make it less safe for them by "increasing the expectation of violence". That seems like someone saying "if I keep my eyes closed, nothing else will exist"!
I really want to visit the UK someday, indeed, I'd like to visit most of Europe, but I won't do it because of the attitude toward firearms there. Probably seems singleminded and maybe even slightly crazy to some people.
I'm an American, bred and raised in Kentucky, in a place where you may go hundreds of miles and only see a few dozen homes. This breeds self reliance. I cannot imagine trusting that if I needed help that someone would just pop out of no where and "save" me. I suspect that in the UK, you would be hard pressed to find ANY place that is as remote as what a large portion of America is. Americans who live in places not so sparsely populated, take this mentality with them too.
I guess it comes from hacking our way out of a forest only a few hundred years ago. An environment that still readily exists today. I don't think the UK has been like that for many many more centuries, so people are more used to being able to depend on others. That and every one from the UK I've ever met was very nice and friendly not something I can say for Americans (I'm sure you guys have your share of buttheads too though)
Back to my original point though, do you honestly think that police being equiped to handle more dangerous situations would make it less safe for them (and the people they are trying to protect) or was this guy way off in your view as well?
Thanks mates
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Old 12-18-2005, 10:20   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by KY-Midnight

Back to my original point though, do you honestly think that police being equiped to handle more dangerous situations would make it less safe for them (and the people they are trying to protect) or was this guy way off in your view as well?
Thanks mates
No, not at all. I'd have no issues with being given a gun, but my point is it isn't wanted or needed. True we do have our buttheads, the same as anywhere else, but as I said before, the widespread distribution of guns does not exist here. Knives are much more of a daily threat.

To say our police are not armed is not actually true. We have many armed units called ARV's (Armed Response Vehicles) who are readily available should they be needed. They are armed with both handguns and semi-automatics.

Ask UK police officers if they want to be armed, and I can assure you, most will say no.
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:39   #117
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and that's as should be.

i'd like to see a lot more unarmed policemen here, given they're in non threatening jobs.

i feel that would be highly sensible.

i also feel that were firearms 'will issue' (for purposes of self defense, specifically, in the UK) .. in other words, if you CLAIM you need one, (and barring any history of antisocial violence).. you should have one.

and that applies, IMO, to police officers too. i certainly don't think they MUST have them. I merely think the single right of armed self defense is essential to the liberty on which civilization rests.

as that is unsupported culturally in the UK, it is my thesis that liberty will erode substantially, obviously, and ongoingly as a result.

let the evidence speak, my opinion is irrelevant.
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Old 12-18-2005, 14:18   #118
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Re: and that's as should be.

Quote:
Originally posted by mitchshrader

it is my thesis that liberty will erode substantially, obviously, and ongoingly as a result.

let the evidence speak, my opinion is irrelevant.
What rubbish!

We have never had the right to bear arms in this country, yet we seem to have managed to get by over the last couple of thousand years quite nicely without any "liberty" issues, thank you very much.

You talk of liberty, yet you live in a society where a policeman practically has one hand on his sidearm and has to bark orders from a safe distance when he does a routine traffic stop, for fear of getting shot.

If that's liberty, you can keep it!
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Old 12-18-2005, 18:27   #119
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Re: Re: and that's as should be.

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What rubbish!

We have never had the right to bear arms in this country, yet we seem to have managed to get by over the last couple of thousand years quite nicely without any "liberty" issues, thank you very much.

You talk of liberty, yet you live in a society where a policeman practically has one hand on his sidearm and has to bark orders from a safe distance when he does a routine traffic stop, for fear of getting shot.

If that's liberty, you can keep it!
Well, now... Seems to me that your bar is set pretty low, Tommy. If all that you need is a few thousand years of simple history to demonstrate that a society is getting along just fine, then I guess most of Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe also qualify as "getting by quite nicely"...famine, genocide, pestilence, pogroms and political upheavals aside. However, I believe most Americans would like something more than that, thank you very much, which is why the tea hit the harbor in the first place. Most of us...at least those of us of the ilk that participate in venues like this...would be loathe to passively sit still for a destiny which placed us under the yoke of Communism, for example, and the direction that our Liberals would lead us in recent history has us going in exactly that direction. Passive acceptance, for many of us, is not an option although we respect that that may be the answer for you. Note that I said 'respect'...not 'admire'. I wouldn't presume to shove a gun into your hands and make you behave in a way I believe to be in your best interest, and I would trust that you'd show me the same courtesy. Similarly, I won't ridicule your choice...

As for you never having had a Right to bear arms in your country, well, that's not exactly true. That Right (or more accurately in your case, 'privilege') was enjoyed by your 'Betters'...your 'Superiors'...those members of your society whose personal safety was more valuable to the King and who were expected to bear arms in their own, society's and the King's defense. Those of you of the "lower classes" weren't deemed worthy of needing arms, and so that privilege was never extended to you. When this country was created, it was done on the basis of there being no 'better class'. Hence the phrase "...all men are created equal...". As a result, at least theoretically (which is the demon we're struggling with currently), no category of American should enjoy Rights not available to ALL Americans.

But, this being America, we'll work it out. And we'll continue to flourish as a result of our struggles. And we'll be there for you...with our guns!...when you need us.
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:45   #120
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Dear Friends,

I would urge you not to label the English as spineless liberals with no interest in the direction of their country.

If I were to take up residence in the United States, I most probably would choose to own a firearm, and then, depending on my location and circumstances, a CCW. I would also bitterly defend the right of all (...) Americans to do so, as you would.

However, I do not live in America. Whilst we lack a "right" to bear arms in Britain, we also lack a history of a media spawned fear of communism, and other imperceptible evils which though we cannot put a name to, we believe we can keep at bay by tucking a pistol into out belts when we drive to work. We are two countries that came into being quite differently, and sadly a great many people have still not realised this.

What I'm trying to say is: I support your right to keep and bear arms one hundered percent, and if asked to stick myself at one particular end of the relative spectrum, I would deem myself "pro-gun". However, that does not mean I think my own country should categorically have the same right. This may be hard for you to understand. I don't expect you to.

Kindest regards,
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